Faith Movement

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Mandy

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There are those that feel if you have enough faith you will be wealthy and healthy. Name it and claim it is about naming basically what you want and then claiming it.
The problem is that God doesn't promise any of these things. Some feel that if you are sick or poor, it is because your faith is lacking or it's because you are in sin.
 
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They (those that believe in the Faith Movement) believe that Christians with enough faith can keep away sickness and disease and can attain wealth..if they believe it enough. Like the whole Benny Henn ministry...

Name it and claim it is a little more complex..it is the belief that one can name something they desire and claim through FAITH that they will have it, that God will grant them that desire.

I actually believe in Name it and claim it...I don't take it as far as the people in a prosperity ministry church does..but I do think if we ask God for something that will benefit our lives and we are living according to his will he will help us to attain it..and I don't mean "1 million billion zillon dollars..give it to me Lord!"

I mean like if my husband and I were struggling and needed a new car to help us to get to work to provide for our family, we can name it and claim through faith ..and through faith God will give us the means to get it.

I am a strong believer in ask and it shall be given unto you..I have seen it evidenced several times in my life. And it was nothing but the Lord..I asked and he gave.


Some people do take it to the eenth degree though..just going overboard..meaning they ask for houses, cars, etc and expect it's going to fall in their lap..ROFL..I have a bridge I want to sell them too..he hee ..

Missy
 
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KC Catholic

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Originally posted by Lynn
Is this kinda like the prayer of jabez that I've been hearing about?

lynn

That is what I have heard. A dear friend of mine gave me that book for my birthday and I can't seem to find it.

Then I surfed the net to find out the hubb-bubb behind the book and it has many, many critics.

A Critique of The Prayer of Jabez

by Todd Wilken

The following is a critique of Dr. Bruce Wilkinson’s book, The Prayer of Jabez, and its teachings, not of Dr. Wilkinson himself. By all accounts Dr. Wilkinson is a devout Christian man and a zealous evangelist.

The book, The Prayer of Jabez purports to be a book on Christian prayer, and in particular a book about one prayer, the prayer of Jabez, found in 1 Chronicles 4:9-10,

Now Jabez was more honorable than his brothers, and his mother named him Jabez saying, "Because I bore him with pain." Now Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, "Oh that Thou wouldst bless me indeed, and enlarge my border, and that Thy hand might be with me, and that Thou wouldst keep me from harm, that it may not pain me!" And God granted him what he requested.

However, The Prayer of Jabez actually ends up misinterpreting this passage. And as a result, the book teaches several things that are contrary to Scripture:

God answered Jabez's prayer because of some virtue in Jabez; and if you're like Jabez, He'll answer yours too (pp. 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 19, 24-25, 60, 76, 82-84, 87, 90).
There are ordinary Christians and extra-ordinary Christians, and God answers their prayers differently (pp. 40, 53, 61, 74-75).
God's work and favor in our lives will be apparent to us in answered prayers and obvious blessings (pp. 15-17, 24-25, 36, 44, 55, 83-84, 91).
Prayer releases God's power (pp. 25, 41, 48, 87, 92).
All of these teachings contradict Scripture's teaching on prayer. All of these teaching reflect a triumphalist, theology of glory, not a theology of the Cross. The Prayer of Jabez makes great claims regarding Jabez, his prayer, and those who pray it. Scripture nowhere attaches any promises to the prayer of Jabez.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, in the 92 pages of this Christian book on prayer, and out of only a handful of references to Jesus, I found only a single reference to Jesus’ atoning work on the Cross (p. 74). In this reference, Jesus is work is merely the means for moving the Christian "to a higher level of honor and exponentially expanding blessings."

Here is the problem: Scripture teaches that God answers prayer for ONE reason and one reason alone: Jesus' perfect obedience and sacrificial death. God’s answers prayer solely for the sake of Jesus. This crucial teaching is never made clear in The Prayer of Jabez. In fact, the book largely presents the very opposite view, namely, that God answers our prayers because of some quality in us.

The Prayer of Jabez teaches that God hears and answers prayer because of me, my faith, my virtue. This is a pagan notion of prayer. In fact, any notion of prayer that omits Jesus in this way is pagan.

Christians need to understand that the answer to their prayers do not lie in themselves, their virtue or their faith, but in Jesus alone.

Rather than seeking affirmation of God's love and favor in answered prayer and obvious blessings, Christians should be encouraged to seek assurance of God's favor in Jesus' cross and resurrection, regardless of their circumstances. This is the faith taught in Scripture and modeled by the saints of the Old and New Testaments.

Critics of The Prayer of Jabez may end up looking like kill-joys in light of the book’s phenomenal popularity. The book has sold almost 5,000,000 copies to date.

Well, I don’t know if nearly 5,000,000 Christians can be wrong, but I do know one book can be.

The Rev. Todd Wilken is the weekday host of Issues, Etc.

Just one critics opinion, but I've read similar comments, and the funny thing is I can't seem to locate the book at home - interesting.
 
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TruelightUK

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The Prayer of Jabez is a new one on me. However, I was involved with the 'Faith Movement' for some time - tho' never quite on the full-blown 'Name it and Claim it' prosperity kick - so I'll try and give a brief explanation.

In essence, the Faith Movement teaches that every promise of God made in the Bible is ours for the taking; God never lies, and whatever He says in His Word is to be claimed by faith. And there is a lot of truth in that. However, they tend to take things to an extreme (often failing to examine Scriptures in context), and become very 'mechanistic' in trying to operate the principles of faith - which they call infallible laws. Thus - to take an extreme example - because there is a promise that 'what you sow you shall reap', and that one seed can bear a hundredfold crop, they formulate the 'law' that if you need $100, all you need to do is give $1 to the Church, and God is honour bound to return it to you a hundredfold!
The 'Name it and Claim it' label comes from the principle of 'calling things that be not as though they were', or 'positive confession' - thus if you are sick, you claim 'I am healed, in Jesus name - he bore my sickness in his body, and by his stripes I am healed', and the power of faith brings about what you confess. The danger comes in (a) the presupposition that God must do anything (by chosing the correct verse, we can manipulate him into doing our will) and (b) the encouragement to 'have faith in your faith' - ie it is my faith which makes me well/rich etc., rather than the grace of God. It is not a million miles from 'the power of positive thinking', and, taken to extremes, is (IMO) actually tantamount to 'magic'.

The Faith Movement grew up out of the Pentecostal Healing move of the 20s and 30s; its 'founder' and prime proponent is Kenneth Hagin - the founder of the Rhema church and Bible School in Tulsa, Oklahoma - tho' there are many other well-known 'Faith Preachers' - Kenneth Copeland in Texas, Ray MacCauley in South Africa, Ulf Eckmann in Sweden to name but a few.

Hope that helps! You can find a bit more thro' my website - http://www.geocities.com/truelightmin if you wish.

Anthony
 
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Andrew

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The Word of Faith or WOF movt is basically this:

Suppose you have a situation. lets say you have cancer. the doctor/world tells you you will die in six months. the BIble says "by his stripes you are healed" and "with long life I will satisfy you".

which are you gonna believe? WOFers wld of cse pick the latter. then, to bring that spiritual promise into the natural, they use the faith God has given them and confess the Word (those scriptures) over their situation, as opposed to talking about dying and making funeral arrangements.

so in its simplest form, it's going by what the Bible says about your situation, as opposed to what the world/devil says about it.

why the need to confess?

1. coz faith comes by hearing God's words not words of ppl who tell you you are gonna die.
2. if you really believe God's word, then you'd speak it and act on it. Just like if you believe Aspirin works for your headache, you'd recommend it to friends (confession) and even pop it into your mouth (faith with works). likewise for God's medicine, his Word.

Has this been abused? Yes. Is it real and of God? I believe so whole heartedly.
 
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LilyLamb

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So what happens when someone who prays to be healed is told as the Apostle Paul was "My grace is sufficient for you" even after praying with faith, like Paul did, THREE TIMES and they are still not healed??? Or told that they would not be healed until they are given their new body in heaven???

Do you then say that that person does not have enough faith or that they are living in sin and therefore unable to receive their healing???

What about Joni Erickson Tada??? She has tremendous faith and is such an encouragement - through her handicap she has reached more people for Christ than she ever would have outside of her wheelchair. She has prayed numerous times to be healed and God has flat out said, "no" ... what about people like that???

I see no where in the scriptures that Jesus promises us that we will not go through hard times or difficulties - in fact, He more often than not states that we WILL have difficulties, persecutions, hardships etc etc And we are taught by the examples of the disciples to be content in whatsoever circumstances.
 
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rookie

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I see no where in the scriptures that Jesus promises us that we will not go through hard times or difficulties - in fact, He more often than not states that we WILL have difficulties, persecutions, hardships etc etc And we are taught by the examples of the disciples to be content in whatsoever circumstances.

I agree. And I think we also need to remember that it's HIS will. Not ours. Even though we would like things to turn out different, that may not be God's will.
Just my thoughts.

rookie
 
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Blackhawk

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I do not like "The prayer of Jabez" I would not lump it with the faith movement though.

Problems with TPOJ.

1. The author took like 2 verses about this guy named Jabez from the Bible. Then he over expounds on them and uses them to speak of things that the verses never had intended them to be for.

2. Now I read the book. And in the book he cites examples of how different people got this or that from praying htis prayer. It was shown as like a formula prayer. Like "pray this prayer three times and call me in the morning. " :D But I do not think that praying certain prayers over and over again will get you anything. Now I am not against repeating certain prayers but it is not the repettition of the prayers or the prayers themselves that did it. No it was God. And He is looking at your heart.

3. Too much looking at what can God give me instead of looking for God Himself.

Now my pastor liked the book. And I kind of like it if you just take the very general message of the book. that is ask God for blessings because God wants to bless you.

That is okay but it is the fine details of the book that go way off.

And do not get me started on the "faith movement"

blackhawk
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by Blackhawk
I do not like "The prayer of Jabez" I would not lump it with the faith movement though.

Problems with TPOJ.

1. The author took like 2 verses about this guy named Jabez from the Bible. Then he over expounds on them and uses them to speak of things that the verses never had intended them to be for.

2. Now I read the book. And in the book he cites examples of how different people got this or that from praying htis prayer. It was shown as like a formula prayer. Like "pray this prayer three times and call me in the morning. " :D But I do not think that praying certain prayers over and over again will get you anything. Now I am not against repeating certain prayers but it is not the repettition of the prayers or the prayers themselves that did it. No it was God. And He is looking at your heart.

3. Too much looking at what can God give me instead of looking for God Himself.

Now my pastor liked the book. And I kind of like it if you just take the very general message of the book. that is ask God for blessings because God wants to bless you.

That is okay but it is the fine details of the book that go way off.

And do not get me started on the "faith movement"

blackhawk

Exactly!! I agree.
 
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Andrew

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Dear little Lamb,
quote: "So what happens when someone who prays to be healed is told as the Apostle Paul was "My grace is sufficient for you" even after praying with faith, like Paul did, THREE TIMES and they are still not healed??? "

First, you have to find out what Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was. Here, you are assuming it's some kind of sickness. Most Bible scholars already agree that its not becos the verse itseld tells you what it is. -- "messenger of Satan" refering to the Judaizers who were trailing him and reintroducing the Law to the people he preached pure grace to. so read check and find out for yourself what Paul's thron really is. FF Bostworth gives a very detailed explanation.

quote: "Do you then say that that person does not have enough faith or that they are living in sin and therefore unable to receive their healing???"

all I know is that the only thing that stops a person from receiving ANYTHING from God is faith. As for sin, God heals sinners even, that's grace- undeserved unmerited favour. you'll see in the bible that Jesus healed first , then forgave sins, many a times. people who do not receive becos they feel that they are sinful fail to receive becos they cant believeGod is that good, hence a problem of ability to believe, not their sin.

quote: "What about Joni Erickson Tada???"
First, do you want to go by the Word or by testimonies? for every -ve testimony you give and I can counter with a positive one. No, we go by the Word. as for Joni, I dont know her, I dont know what she believed about sickness or her OWN healing. let's go by what the Word says, not by testimonies. perhaps she has great faith in saving souls, healing others but not in seeing herself walking.

quote: "I see no where in the scriptures that Jesus promises us that we will not go through hard times or difficulties"

I'm aware of those verses. Firstly, these sufferings dont include sickness becos Jesus bore them already (Isa 53:4). Yes, persecutions, hard times etc...but he always provides a way out (we will not be tempted beyond what we can endure and God always gives a way out). Also, you must determine if you are called to be like Paul -- "I will show him how much he has to suffer for my sake".

Yes of course all Christians go thru problems in life, but we "walk THROUGH the valley of death with our Lord" HE doesnt ask us to camp there the rest of our lives.
 
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LouisBooth

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"?all I know is that the only thing that stops a person from receiving ANYTHING from God is faith. "

So if an alocoholic has the faith he can get more alcohol? Doubtful. The same goes with people. God gives you good gifts but they aren't always what you want, ie wealth.

our faith is NOT a God motivator. He works things out in accordance with HIS plan, not our faith.
 
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LilyLamb

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God does NOT give us everything we pray for like some vending machine - even if we have the faith that He "CAN DO IT".

God does not HAVE TO give us anything ... it is enough that we have eternal life and the presence of the Holy Spirit to guide us. He does not HAVE TO heal us just because we believe that He can heal. His grace is sufficient and He is faithful not to put more on us than we can handle.

What good is my faith if it's only to manipulate God's will??

If God chooses for me to live a life handicapped in various ways then He knows what He's doing - the comfort that He gives me is the same comfort that I can give to others struggling with the same handicap or disease.

And yes, I do have a handicap and I live with two diseases - one that causes me pain 24/7/365. I have been to healing services - I have others pray over me and anoint me - and have "yet" to see any manifestation of healing. Do I "know" God can heal me - yes - do I believe God has healed me through the blood of His Son - yes.

I love the Lord and trust Him for HIS timing as to WHEN I will be healed - whether it be today, tomorrow, next week, next year or when I reach Heaven's gates.
 
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TruelightUK

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The problem with the Faith Movement is, basically, that it tries to simplify everything into total black and white, infallible 'laws, whereas, in reality, the Bible shows us that things are far more complicated.

Failure to receive whatever you desire is not necessarily a matter of weak faith (an accusation which has done much damage to many sincere Chirstians, hea\ping totally unjustified condemnation upon them)- you can only have faith in something God has promised to you! Just finding a proof text and confessing it is not the same as God speaking directly into one's life. While the Bible does give general principles that God wants our needs met etc., it never guarantees that this is something that we can expect to find 100% fulfilled in this life. There are numerous reasons why some folk are healed and others not - most of which have nothing to do with their personal 'unworthiness'.

There are OT and NT examples of sickness coming on people, regardless of their rightoeus living or faith in God and His promises - and of them not being healed. For example, Paul left Trophimus in Miletus because he was sick (2 Tim 4:20) - no mention of a lack of faith - and advises Timothy to take wine because of his frequent stomach problems. Why hadn't God healed him? And why didn't Paul say, as many faith preachers would, "don't undermine your faith by taking medicine, just keep confessing the Word till your healing manifests"!?

In practice much that is taught in this context is more in keeping with New Age dualistic 'mysticism' than Biblical Christianity - eg "This sickness is not mine; Jesus took all my diseases, therefore it is his - ergo I only have physical symptoms of the disease which are a lie from the devil: in spiritual reality I am 100% healthy." NOt far removed from the mumbo jumbo of Christian Science!

Which is sad, because healing etc. are very real spiritual blessings from God; the dubious hocus pocus which many people have come to associate with healing evangelists etc. often serve to make them cynical and miss out on something which could be theirs, were their faith in God's grace and not men's misrepresentations.

Anthony
 
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LilyLamb

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Anthony - thanks so much for saying that. It really gets my goat when people think I have not been healed yet because I do not have faith - and yes, it is very damaging to tell other Christians that they do not have faith - when in reality God has chosen not to heal that person for whatever reason. We can't demand that of Him - He knows what He is doing when He says "no" or "wait".

I feel that I am a better person for having lived with a handicap and the diseases I bear - it keeps me close to the Lord - had I been healed a long time ago I don't think I would have the relationship that I do have with God. I have also been able to comfort others with the same comfort which He has given me.

I trust I will see the manifestations of my healing when the time is right.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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I must agree with the critics on that book.
Asking God for something is ok, but to assume that your prayers have not been answered because one lacks faith is crazy!
Its just like garth brooks song unanswered prayers. It is the will of God.
My missionary friends who live in germany and they prayed real hard to get a printing press that costs 10,000 dollars. The worked their butts off trying to get the fund together, hnot because they wanted it but because they were doing Gods work. God provided for them which proved to them that what they are doing over there is Gods will, and not of their own.
GEL
 
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