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arizona_sunshine

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InspectorVol said:
Ya'll do some indepth reading on your particular founding fathers of your particular denomination and see what they had to say about it.

The founder of my religion had his wife compile a hymnbook. :) Music is very important to us.
 
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usetheforce

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Music in Church service should be abandoned.

Hello InspectorVol...... you are mistaken.

1 Chr. 25: 6
6 All these were under the hands of their father for song• in the house of the LORD, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God, according to the king’s order to Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman.

2 Chr. 29: 27
27 And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.

Ps. 144: 9
9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.

Isa. 38: 20
20 The LORD was ready to save me: therefore we will sing my songs to the stringed instruments all the days of our life in the house of the LORD.

Clearly..... You are not aware of the Scriptures.
 
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Alma

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usetheforce said:
Hello InspectorVol...... you are mistaken.



Clearly..... You are not aware of the Scriptures.
I surmise that InspectorVol belongs to the Church of Christ - the branch that doesn't believe in musical instruments in church. Most of the comments have spoken past what he would consider as valid (if my suspicions are correct.) Church of Christ people believe that even though Old Testament passages authorize musical instruments, the New Testament does not. So, OT citations won't get you anywhere. Historically speaking, instrumental music is very new to Christian worship. Even Adam Clarke railed against the use of instrumental music in the chapel. It was a strict rule for so long that the term for singing without accompaniment "a capella" is Italian for "in the chapel" because even Catholics didn't allow musical instruments in the chapel.

If you're looking for any post Old Testament era authorization for musical instruments in Christian worship services, the best you could do is Brigham Young's revelation (section 136). It says: "If thou art merry, praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing, and with a prayer of praise and thanksgiving." :D

Alma
 
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unbound

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Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

If music were condemned, I dont think this would be in the NT.
 
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12volt_man

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skylark1 said:
Thanks Daneel. I wan't aware of that. I was vaguely aware that the Church of Christ did not allow musical intruments. Do they also ban singing?

There are actually some CoCs that have music.

I used to live next door to a CoC Asst Pastor and he invited me to one of their services. I was shocked when I got there to find out that, not only did they have music, but that they were using the same Cokesbury Methodist Hymnal that I grew up with.

Granted, these churches in the CoC are very few and far between but there are some out there.
 
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Shekinahs

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unbound said:
Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

If music were condemned, I dont think this would be in the NT.
Very good post. :wave:

No matter how one tries to look at it music in church is Biblical. I learned about the Shakers today. They decided that Christians should never marry which meant they never were suppose to have sex and therefore no children. The Shakers died out. Go figure :rolleyes: Point being we all see scripture in a way that suits us. Nothing wrong with that until you try to tell somebody their way of viewing scripture is wrong.
 
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Serapha

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Hi there!

I do hope that everyone recognizes the sound of the "trump" when the Lord returns.. let me see now... that "trump" sound comes from heaven. If it's good enough for heaven, why can't we practice using the "trump" now. Don't you want to be prepared for heaven?


It's going to be noisy there...


I can't imagine the marriage supper of the Lamb, the marriage of the church without wedding music.

~serapha~
 
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skylark1

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InspectorVol,

I didn't realize until late in this thread that you only object to muscial instruments, not singing.

On what basis do you object to musical instruments in church? I am baffled as to why you would consider a piano evil. Do you object to musical instruments outside of church?
 
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InspectorVol

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I did not expect anyone to agree with me. Hopefully I can make you think about it though.
These passages come directly from a book.

Departures from the word of God heave centered in 3 major things--organization, doctrine, and worship. Departure in organization came first. It was a gradual development and resulted in the Roman Catholic Church. Departure in doctrine came second. It was also gradual and finally resulted in the Pops's claim of infalliability and the right to change the law of God. Then came the departure in the realm of worship.

The first organ was introduced into teh worship of any body of people claimimg to be christians was 670 years after Christ. It was introduced by Pope Vitalian I. It threatened division in the Roman Catholic Church. They took it out to preserve the unity of the church. Eight hundred years after Christ the organ was reintroduced into Roman Catholic worship over some opposition. The Greek Catholic Church refused it and still reject it. They do not use it today.

Martin Luther rejected teh use of the organ. He said: " The organ in the worship of God is a sign of Baal." John Calvin, the organizer of the Presbyterian Church, and author of the calvinistic creed , said of the organ in the worship: " It is no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of tapers or the rivivalof the other shadows of the law. the Roman Catholics borrowed it from the Jews."

When John Wesley, founder of Methodism, was asked about the use of the organ, he tersley said: " I have no objection to the organ in our chapels provided it is neither herad nor seen."

Skipping a couple of sections now.

In ephesians 5:19 we are commanded to speak" one to another in psalms and hymns and spirtual songs, singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord." The expression making melody is the greek word psallontes, a derivitive
of teh Greek verb psallo. The word psallo occurs in teh new testament 5 times. In Ephesians 5:19 it is translated "making melody." In I Corinthians 14:15 its found twice and translated "sing." In Romans 15:9 it is translated "sing." In James 5:13 it is translated "sing praises." So the word psallo is used 5 times in the New Testament. 4 times it is translated "sing" 1 time it is translated "making melody." But not satisfied with the english translation, not satisfied with twh meaning 148 of the worlds riest scholars gave to the word psallo, some seek to find authority for instrumental music by going to greek lexicons. What do lexicons say the word psallo means? The lexicons define it as to pluck, to twang, to pull, to cause to viberate. Since psallo means to pluck, one must have something to pluck in order to psallo. So the word has had various uses. A hunter plucked the bowstring to shoot the arrow. He psalloed the bow string. The workman plucked the carpenters line. It was even aplied to plucking the beard, and pulling teh hair. But teh musician plucke dthe chords of a musical instrument. That was psalloing the instrument. Now, Paul commands us all to psallo. What did he mean? Did he mean to pull the hair? When Paul tells us to psallo, did he mean toplay a mechanical instrument of music? he tells what he meant. He does not leave it to guess. He says, " singing and psalloing [psallontes]with your heart."Now when a man pulls back he is "salloing"the bow string. When a carpenter pulls a line to make a chalk mark he is "salloing"that carenters line. When a mucician plays an instrument he is "psalloing" that instrumnet. But in this passage Paul says when Christians sing they psallo the heart- make melody in the heart. It is spiritual "psalloing", "psalloing" the heart. It is a spiritual use of the word.

If the word psallo in the New Testament includes the mechanical instrument, the only one who performs the act of psalloing is the one who plays tehinstrument. The organist is the only one who obeys the command. Paul tells us all topsallo. All can do it, but none by proxy.

I could type much more but for brevity's sake I will stop for now. I hope you all read this throughly and not just dismiss it because you have always had music in church.
 
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skylark1

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InspectorVol,

Your post doesn't explain why you believe that musical instuments are forbidden during worship. Just because saints were instructed to sing, does not mean that they were forbidden to offer praise to God with musical instruments. Could you show us from the Bible where you believe it states that musical instuments are forbidden during worship?
 
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InspectorVol

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I'll just do a cut and paste if you don't mind.


ANOTHER LOOK AT INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC AND THE SILENCE OF THE SCRIPTURE



Copyright © 2003, by John Lankford, Fort Smith, Arkansas



[size=+1]In a previous article (A Closer Look at the Silence of Scripture), an attempt was made to show that "silence-in-context" is the correct approach to its understanding. This means that when statements are collected on a topic a coherent picture may emerge that "explains" why some things are not-mentioned. The emphasis is to FIRST get positive facts and then interpret the silence from there. This contrasts with the automatic use of silence to either allow or forbid something separate from its context (see Note 1 below).

First, the issue of music in worship must be understood in the context of the design of the New Covenant as contrasted with the Old Covenant. The New Covenant will be different than the Old Covenant as per worship (John 4:21ff). The physical of the Old Covenant pointed to or stood for the "true" of the New (Hebrews 10:1ff). In particular, the Temple of the Old Covenant has been replaced by the bodies of Christians (1 Corinthians 6:19). Each person is the TRUE TEMPLE or "house of prayer" (Mark 11:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:17). And in this NEW TEMPLE the Spirit of God dwells (1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19; Acts 2:38). Now, just as the OLD Temple had physical instruments of music to accompany the singing/sacrifices (2 Chronicles 29:25ff; Psalm 150), these have been replaced in the NEW TEMPLE with a NEW KIND of instrument to accompany the singing. It is the "vibrating strings" of the heart [Greek psallo, translated "making melody" in Ephesians 5:19, basically means "to twang, to pluck, to vibrate," but only the context tells what is to receive the action. In Ephesians 5:19, it is "the heart," see R1, R2]. Hence, the text literally means "sing accompanied by the vibrating strings of the heart" (note the instrument has changed from physical to spiritual). Also, this NEW TEMPLE is mobile (a person) and continually carries with it all the musical apparatus needed for daily worship (e.g., Acts 16:25). When all the pieces are put together, it shows that the simplicity of the NEW TEMPLE is by DIVINE DESIGN. Hence, it should not be modified. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Hebrews 8:5; 1 Corinthians 4:7).

Second, in the Old Covenant musical instruments in worship were clearly stated as being a part of the will of God (2 Chronicles 29:25ff; Psalm 150). When writing Ephesians 5:19, Greek words in New Testament times to clearly signify playing on a physical instrument are kitharizo, auleo, or kreko. If singing is to be accompanied by a physical instrument, then the words were available to convey this idea succinctly. For example, in 1 Corinthians 14:7, Paul selected the word auleo to indicate "to play a flute" (see R3). Hence, Paul's word selection and phrasing in Ephesians 5:19 is significant because it points toward pure vocal music instead of singing accompanied by a man-made instrument.

Third, in contrast to the special priesthood of the Old Covenant, now all Christians are priests and have sacrifices to offer (1 Peter 2:5). But the sacrifices in Old Covenant worship have been replaced by a NEW KIND of sacrifice (1 Peter 2:5). The entire life is offered (Romans 12:1) and includes sacrifices of praise which are specifically the"fruit of lips" (Hebrews 13:15) . Singing precisely fulfills this (Colossians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 14:15) but instrumental music cannot. This can account for its absence in the New Testament record.

Fourth, in Ephesians 5:15-20 pagan practice is contrasted with Christian practice and the vocal nature of New Covenant music is clearly seen. The comments by the scholarly Conybeare and Howson of the Church of England state in their Life and Epistles of St. Paul (vol II, p. 408) "the whole passage is a contrast between heathen and Christian practice ... not in fullness of wine but fullness of Spirit ... not the ... songs of heathen feasts but psalms and hymns ... not the music of the lyre, but melody in the heart ... praises not of Bacchus or Venus but Jesus." In this case, instrumental music is identified with paganism and not Christian worship. That Christian practice should not be stained by the pagan world is the point (see also James 1:17; Romans 12:2). Therefore, from a view of its association with paganism, musical instruments would be expected to be absent from Christian worship.


Notice that points 1-4 each approach the subject from different viewpoints but they tie together and reinforce each other. This interweaving makes firm the emergent picture of "just singing" being the music style of the New Covenant (see R5).


TESTING 1, 2, 3 ...

A good test of any idea is its ability to explain. How does the picture above fare in this regard?



  1. It fully explains the silence of the New Testament materials on musical instruments in early church worship on earth (see R5).


  2. It best explains why "just singing" was the norm for early church writers and instruments were denounced (see R3, R4).


  3. It best explains the long interval of time before musical instrumentals were introduced into worship [10th century according to E. Coffman, the Christian History analyst for Christianity Today (see R7). Others say Pope Vitalian (circa 660)]. [Note: the Greek Orthodox Church still omits musical instruments (see R2).]


  4. It best explains why learned men throughout church history (Knox, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.), who differ in many areas, all unite in stating that musical instruments are out of place in Christian worship (see R9).


  5. It best explains why phrase "A Cappella" is known by music historians as a one-word history lesson of early church music. (Dr. William M. Green, Professor of Classical Languages, University of California, Berkeley.)
Note above how "silence" is not the main argument, it only corroborates a design that is actually revealed in Scripture.


SUMMARY / CONCLUSION / APPLICATION

By using a clinical, historical approach it has been shown that (1) a coherent picture emerges that shows that the music style of the New Covenant is purely vocal, (2) that scriptural statements viewing worship from different perspectives all tie together to reinforce this picture, and (3) this picture best explains the silence of the New Testament and other early Christian writings on using instruments in worship. Hence, the cumulative weight of testimony is very solid. Therefore, we should follow the direction the evidence points and this rightfully excludes musical instruments (see Note 2 below).


End Notes



  • Note 1 -- Often the approach is just to list all the passages that mention singing and then say there is no mention of instruments, so they are therefore excluded. This illustrates the "automatic" use of silence to exclude a matter. We believe that this is a faulty use of silence.

    Note 2 -- It seems that those who allow the use of a musical instrument (a) have honestly not seen/heard how the total testimony weighs against it, (b) heard it denounced by a faulty use of silence, or (c) they simply intend to follow their own wants and the facts are immaterial. Within Churches of Christ it seems that (a) and (b) are the dominant factors.
Recommended further study (all available in the West-Ark Church of Christ library or online)



  • R1) "Psallo" defined by standard lexicons (www.studylight.org/lex/grk). Also see Kittel, TDNT Vol. 8, p. 490ff.
  • R2) Letter from Greek Orthodox Church official that translates/explains Ephesians 5:19 according to the original Greek in context.
  • R3) A Cappella Music (Dr. Everett Ferguson, world-recognized authority on early Christianity).
  • R4) Music in Early Christian Literature (Dr. James McKinnon, Distinguished Professor of Music, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill).
  • R5) Why Don't We Use Musical Instruments in Worship? (Dr. Michael Cole uses a different approach in this article that further solidifies the idea that "just singing" is the New Testament design.)
  • R6) Instrumental Music and New Testament Worship (Dr. J.D. Bales)
  • R7) When Was Instrumental Music First Used? (Elesha Coffman, www.christianitytoday.com)
  • R8) Worship Concepts (sermon by David Chadwell)
  • R9) What did early Christians believe about using instrumental music in worship? (Collection of statements, www.bible.ca./H-music.htm)
[/size]
 
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Shekinahs

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skylark1 said:
InspectorVol,

Could you show us from the Bible where you believe it states that musical instuments are forbidden during worship?
He can't :rolleyes: The no music in church is just the preference of himself and his denomination. Nothing wrong with that but the way he started this thread it was as if music in church is un-godly and it's not. It's just a way of worship his denomination prefers. Which is fine but nobody should condemn others for choosing music in worship.
 
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skylark1

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Shekinahs said:
He can't :rolleyes: The no music in church is just the preference of himself and his denomination. Nothing wrong with that but the way he started this thread it was as if music in church is un-godly and it's not. It's just a way of worship his denomination prefers. Which is fine but nobody should condemn others for choosing music in worship.
I agree.

It doesn't bother me if a denomination chooses to praise God through song, without musical instuments, but it does bother me if someone chooses to condemn those who see nothing wrong with including musical instuments.

Inspector, thanks for the article. It seems to mostly focus on lack of specific mention of musical instuments in the NT as reason for this belief. One thing that I do agree with is that our praise and song should overflow from the strings of our heart. I believe that one can also offer heartfelt praise to God through music instruments. I consider music to be a gift from God.


Music is well said to be the speech of angels; in fact, nothing among the utterances allowed to man is felt to be so divine. It brings us near to the Infinite.
~Thomas Carlyle
 
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InspectorVol

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He can't :rolleyes: The no music in church is just the preference of himself and his denomination. Nothing wrong with that but the way he started this thread it was as if music in church is un-godly and it's not. It's just a way of worship his denomination prefers. Which is fine but nobody should condemn others for choosing music in worship.
You couldn't have read it as you posted this at 1:04 and my previous post was at 1:00. The scripture is there he asked for if anyone cares to read it. What you think of it is up to you all. The question you might want to ask is where does your church get its authority from for using instruments.
 
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InspectorVol

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[size=+3]"W[/size]hy [size=+3]D[/size]on't [size=+3]W[/size]e [size=+3]U[/size]se
[size=+3]M[/size]usical [size=+3]I[/size]nstruments in [size=+3]W[/size]orship[size=+3]?"[/size]


by Michael S. Cole, M.D.


[size=+1]Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Ephesians 5:19).

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Colossians 3:16).

Why do some churches (including West-Ark Church of Christ) teach that it is wrong to use musical instruments to accompany our singing during Christian worship assemblies when the above verses don't precisely forbid it?

I think most will agree that God has specifically instructed (even "commanded") Christians to sing as part of the worship that He expects (even "demands"). Since He has not commanded nor even suggested to us to play musical instruments in worship, we can be absolutely certain that if we don't use musical instruments, then He will be pleased with Christians singing if their worship comes from the heart.

Apparently, the human singing voice, that musical instrument created by God Himself, is the only music that our Creator requires of us during a Christian worship assembly. Adding musical instruments to the worship service, therefore, seems as inappropriate as adding fish to the Lord's Supper. That, too, is not clearly forbidden in the Word of God, but most disciples of Christ would agree that this would not be proper. We have examples from the Bible that it is possible to offer sincere, but unacceptable, worship to God. (See Genesis 4:5; Leviticus 10:1-2; I Samuel 15:22; Joshua 1:7; I Kings 11:38; Jeremiah 7:23; Matthew 6:5; Luke 18:10-14.)

As further proof that we should expressively forbid the use of musical instruments in worship, we know from the first several centuries of church history that singing was unaccompanied in all Christian worship. The Latin phrase "a cappella" comes to us from ancient times with the meaning of singing without instrumental music. Literally translated, "a cappella" means "at chapel." Clearly, this is evidence that at some time in the past Christians routinely worshiped God with unaccompanied singing. Even as recent as the 19th century, religious leaders of most denominations condemned the use of mechanical instruments during worship. Since we cannot be absolutely certain that God finds the use of musical instruments an appropriate form of worship, then it seems quite foolish to risk His wrath by adding something which He did not clearly authorize us to do during collective worship. Our only assurance of practicing acceptable Christian worship is to disregard man-made creeds and turn to God's Word as our only authoritative guide to worship. Unless we pattern our worship after the first century church, we can have no assurance that God approves of our assemblies.[/size]

 
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