Why isn't the Limited Atonement Doctrine not taught anymore?

nobdysfool said:

It's not "a" verse. That's where you miss the point. It is a series of verses, and passages that, when taken together, point to the fact that Christ had a specific set of people in mind as He went to the Cross, that He was sent to achieve the redemption of a specific set of people, and that His work on the Cross was not just potential, or a provision, for an as yet un-named and unrealized group or even of all mankind without exception, but specific, particular, and actually accomplished the salvation, in toto, of those whom He died for, and not contingent upon their response, but upon God's unchanging Will and Counsel, whereby He determined to save those whom He chose to save before the foundation of the world, and in Christ, sealed their salvation with His own Blood.

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Early on in this thread many verses were given, from the OT and NT that clearly demonstrate that God determined to save a particular people.

However, Edail's thoroughly intellectually dishonest response is simple to wave them off and say they have never been presented.

That is why I will not jump through his dishonest hoops any longer.

HITR said:

I don't see that His death was about specific individuals, but moreso that He died to break the curse of sin on behalf of all of mankind. IOW, He didn't do it for us individually (though individually, we are precious to Him!). He did it on our behalf. I believe He did it for the destruction of the power of sin.

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That is where semi-pelagianism fails miserably, for if Jesus died to "break the curse of sin on behalf of all of mankind", then His death was in vain and a miserable failure, for the curse still remains in most, and if the curse was broken for all humanity, then all would be saved, which is clearly not the case.

HITR said:

He is a propitiation for sin, and when we lose sight of this very important truth in the gospel,

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No, we of the Reformed have no lost sight of that at all. As a matter of fact, that topic has been breeched many times and the semi-pelagians refuse to address it.

I agree Christ was our propitiation if you are one of the Elect, but Christ cannot be the propitiation for the entirety of humanity without exception from Adam forward, or else all would be saved. Or God sends people to hell after His wrath has been removed, and therefore guilty Himself of double jeopardy.

**hands AwasC back his treasured label**

AwasC, please revisit my previous posts, #s 136 and 257.

In that, and with all due respect...

God bless, HITR

That does bring a good question to mind, though, if another of my brethren that advocates the Calvinist position would be willing to answer...

Where does the Word show that Christ's death was a propitiation for mankind, or the Elect, or humanity, rather than for SIN?

It's a serious question, so if someone out there could help me out with this one, I would appreciate it.

Blessings, HITR

HITR said:

**hands AwasC back his treasured label**

AwasC, please revisit my previous posts, #s 136 and 257.

In that, and with all due respect...

God bless, HITR

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I'm afraid you do not understand what "propitiation" means, thus misunderstand the nature of the Atonement.

Imblessed said:

Ok, can you explain just why it is so important that Jesus died for the "rest"? Why die for them and not redeem them? Especially if he "knew" they would reject Him? '

I just can't understand why it's so important that Jesus should have died for all the people who reject Him if the death on the cross was to redeem for the sins of those who are His.......

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Because he loves all. There is no other reason.

MT 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Thanks,
Ed

HITR said:

That does bring a good question to mind, though, if another of my brethren that advocates the Calvinist position would be willing to answer...

Where does the Word show that Christ's death was a propitiation for mankind, or the Elect, or humanity, rather than for SIN?

It's a serious question, so if someone out there could help me out with this one, I would appreciate it.

Blessings, HITR

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You act as if sin is an entity within itself. Sin cannot be seperated from the one who commits sin.

Now when Paul in Romans 8 says "it is sin that lives in me", he is not saying sin is a seperate entity, but is speaking of the sin nature that he was born with.

I'm afraid you are also misunderstanding the nature of sin and the sin nature as well.

Edial said:

Because he loves all. There is no other reason.

MT 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Thanks,
Ed

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God does tell us to love our enemies but I defy you to show where God tells us to love His enemies.

mlqurgw said:

God does tell us to love our enemies but I defy you to show where God tells us to love His enemies.

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I think also they neglect the purposes behind that command to love our enemies, being firstly so that God's Name is not slandered among the heathen on our account, and so that we depend on God as our Provider in all things.

Should be have revenge on our hearts against our enemies, then we suffer for it, but instead we are to depend on God to repay.

All one has to do is study the prayers of David seeking God's justice be brought against David's enemies, or study the saints in heaven in Revelation who are crying out to God for retribution against those who spilled their blood, to understand that in loving our enemies, we protect ourselves from sin and depend on God for retribution.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”


It is God who holds the authority and the right for personal retribution against our enemies, not we ourselves. That is His Domain.

mlqurgw said:

Foreknowledge and foresight are two different things. Foreknowledge has to do with having an inimate relationship before and foresight is seeing before. Nowhere does the Scripture teach that God elects according to foresight.

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Whether foreknowledge or foresight are used, these essentially have a similar purpose in this context.

Let's say there is a parent. And that parent knows his child very,very well. And that parent knows that his boy has a soft heart. And that parent knows that is he finds a puppy he will keep the puppy.
He knows his little boy. He knows what he will do.

So God knows all people before they are even born.
He knows what they are capable of, what they are made of, what they are predisposed for.

that is why we have this text -

Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 `For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.'

Here God predetermined each person's (from Adam on) time and place of birth, so they would reach out to him. He preset their environments in such a way as to make it easier for them to receive him.

Yet, as we all know, many will reject.

Thanks,
Ed

That He has a special place prepared for him.


HELL!

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

That He has a special place prepared for him.


HELL!

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Yes, capricious 2-year olds are prone to do things like that.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

I think also they neglect the purposes behind that command to love our enemies, being firstly so that God's Name is not slandered among the heathen on our account, and so that we depend on God as our Provider in all things.

Should be have revenge on our hearts against our enemies, then we suffer for it, but instead we are to depend on God to repay.

All one has to do is study the prayers of David seeking God's justice be brought against David's enemies, or study the saints in heaven in Revelation who are crying out to God for retribution against those who spilled their blood, to understand that in loving our enemies, we protect ourselves from sin and depend on God for retribution.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”


It is God who holds the authority and the right for personal retribution against our enemies, not we ourselves. That is His Domain.

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Actually it is a denial of the clear statements of Scripture that Gid does hate. Did not David say buy the inspiration of God :
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:

You act as if sin is an entity within itself. Sin cannot be seperated from the one who commits sin.

Now when Paul in Romans 8 says "it is sin that lives in me", he is not saying sin is a seperate entity, but is speaking of the sin nature that he was born with.

I'm afraid you are also misunderstanding the nature of sin and the sin nature as well.

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Do please describe this "sin nature." What is it? And show us how this is not an invention of men.

mlqurgw said:

God does tell us to love our enemies but I defy you to show where God tells us to love His enemies.

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You probably misunderstood the text or what I meant.

MT 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Here we see that we are told to love our enemies (v.44). In v.45 there is a comparison to the Father who feeds all. In v.46 it states that loving only the ones that love you is not a thing that a believer to do. SAme thought is in v.47. And then it concludes that we are to be "perfect" or fair in distribution of our love (agape) towards all.

So, if we as indiviuduals are to love OUR enemies, because God loves OUR enemies.

Thanks,
Ed

depthdeception said:

Yes, capricious 2-year olds are prone to do things like that.

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So, you deny the reality of hell for the reprobate too?

mlqurgw said:

Actually it is a denial of the clear statements of Scripture that Gid does hate. Did not David say buy the inspiration of God :
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

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We can add to those Psalm 5;

4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness,
Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

mlqurgw said:

Actually it is a denial of the clear statements of Scripture that Gid does hate. Did not David say buy the inspiration of God :
Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

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You will not fine ONE verse in the NT where it states that God hates or abhors people.
The 2 verses are the quotes of the OT (the Essau text).

You find that he hates sin, but never a sinner.

Some change from the OT, isn't it?

New Covenant. Old Covenant. New Tesatment. Old Testament.

Things changed on the cross.

Thanks,
Ed

Sentry said:

Do please describe this "sin nature." What is it? And show us how this is not an invention of men.

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Do you deny that every human born of Adam is born with an inherited sin nature inherited from Adam?

Edial said:

You will not fine ONE verse in the NT where it states that God hates or abhors people.
The 2 verses are the quotes of the OT (the Essau text).

You find that he hates sin, but never a sinner.

Some change from the OT, isn't it?

New Covenant. Old Covenant. New Tesatment. Old Testament.

Things changed on the cross.

Thanks,
Ed

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So God isn't the same now as He was then? Nonsense. God didn't change when Christ died.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.