Why isn't the Limited Atonement Doctrine not taught anymore?

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kw5kw

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Shall we look for a moment at a few verses?

Hebrews 9:28 “so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many(4183) people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” (NIV)

Matthew 20:16 “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many(4183) be called, but few chosen.”(KJV)



Matthew 20:28 “just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many(4183).”(NIV)

Matthew 22:14 “For many(4183) are called, but few are chosen .”(KJV)

Matthew 26:28 “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many(4183) for the remission of sins .”(KJV)

Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many(4183) .”(KJV)

Mark 14:24 “ And he said unto them, ‘ This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many(4183).’” .”(KJV)



On the flip side:

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many(4183), I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” .”(KJV)

2John 1:7 “For many(4183)deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Chris is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” .”(KJV)

Strong’s 4183: polus = many, much



You will notice that in these, and others as well, the Lord Jesus came for – not all, but for many! If the Lord Jesus had come for all, would not He have said instead something like this? “This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for all.” But He didn’t. Did He?



To quote from Jamieson, Fausset, Brown’s “Bible Commentary” Volume 3 Part 3 “1st Corinthians ~ Revlation”; Hendrikson Publishers, Inc., Peabody, Massachusetts01961, second printing January 2002. ISBN# 1-56563-197-8 p. 559



Heb 9:28 -

many — not opposed to all, but to few. He, the One, was offered for many; and that once for all (cf. Mat 20:28).

And, to quote from Barnes on the Bible, of which I do have in Printed form as well as electronic, but I only have the electronic form with me today, so the reference is: Barnes Notes – commentary on the entire bible in 14 volumes, baker publishing. Via e-sword on Heb 9:28:



Heb 9:28 –

To Bear the Sins for many: To suffer and die on account of their sins; see Isa 53:11; Gal 3:13.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many(7227); for he shall bear their iniquities.

7227 rab: “much, many, great, abundant etc.”

Again, the author who was inspired by the LORD Himself, writes the word “ many “ not the word “all”, thus not all will be justified, but many will.

Darby writes on Isaiah: (e-sword)

…He shall bring many to righteousness, or instruct many in righteousness, and He shall bear their iniquities.

Still on Isaiah; from Gill’s commentary, (via e-sword):

…a pronouncing and declaring men righteous, as opposed to condemnation: and they are many who are so justified; the many who were ordained to eternal life; the many whose sins Christ bore, and gave his life a ransom for; the many sons that are brought by him to glory.

Matthew Henry: (e-sword, I also have a printed copy at home as well.)

… There are many whom Christ justifies, even as many as he gave his life a ransom for. By faith we are justified; thus God is most glorified, free grace most advanced, self most abased, and our happiness secured. We must know him, and believe in him, as one that bore our sins, and saved us from sinking under the load, by taking it upon himself. …



Back to Hebrews; to quote from the Geneva Bible’s margin notes, of which I only have in electronic form from e-sword.



Heb 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of (s) many; (16) and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



(s) Thus the general promise is restrained to the elect only: and we have to seek the testimony of our election, not in the secret counsel of God, but in the effects that our faith works, and so we must climb up from the lowest step to the highest, there to find such comfort as is most certain, and shall never be moved.



(16) Shortly by the way he sets Christ as Judge, partly to terrify those who are not trusting in the only sacrifice of Christ once made, and partly to keep the faithful in their duty, so that they will not go back.

Even John Wesley (That great Arminian) writes: (also from e-sword)

Heb 9:28 - Christ having once died to bear the sins - The punishment due to them. Of many … when he comes to judgment. Without sin - Not as he did before, bearing on himself the sins of many, but to bestow everlasting salvation.



Limited Atonement; sounds like it as “many were called, but few were chosen.”
 
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DIANAC

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kw5kw, Impressive study. May I continue looking into it further?

You rightly noted that MANY is Strong's 4183

Strong’s 4183: polus = many, much



This little word is a classic study case on how just a twist in the meaning of the word can create a theology. (Or maybe a theology adjusted a correct understanding of the word). How did you come to a conclusion that MANY is inclusive/exclusive? How can one conclude that MANY means all or some? Look into any dictionary. Many means a large number. Correction: a very large number. This is the same many 4183 as in
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great 4183 [is] your reward in heaven.
Here we go: MANY means a very great number. Furthermore, The Bible gives us a word study on MANY. Please consider this scripture:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many were made sinners. Who are sinners? Everyone, a very large number.
Many shall be made righteous. Who will be made righteous? Some, a large number by the time Christ returns. Again, MANY means a very large number.
be well,
Diana
 
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kw5kw

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DIANAC said:
kw5kw, Impressive study. May I continue looking into it further?
DIANAC said:
You rightly noted that MANY is Strong's 4183







This little word is a classic study case on how just a twist in the meaning of the word can create a theology. (Or maybe a theology adjusted a correct understanding of the word). How did you come to a conclusion that MANY is inclusive/exclusive? How can one conclude that MANY means all or some? Look into any dictionary. Many means a large number. Correction: a very large number. This is the same many 4183 as in

Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great 4183 [is] your reward in heaven.

Here we go: MANY means a very great number. Furthermore, The Bible gives us a word study on MANY. Please consider this scripture:







Many does not mean ‘all’, many means (according to Webster’s Dictionary):

Many

MANY, a. men'ny.



1. Numerous; comprising a great number of individuals.



Thou shalt be a father of many nations. Gen 17.



Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 1 Cor 1.



Many are the afflictions of the righteous. Psa 34.



It is often preceded by as or so, and followed by so, indicating an equal number.



As many books as you take, so many shall be charged to your account.



So many laws argue so many sins.



It is followed by as.



As many as were willing-hearted brought bracelets. Exo 34.



It precedes an or a, before a noun in the singular number.



Full many a gem of purest ray serene.



2. In low language, preceded by too, it denotes powerful or much; as, they are too many for us.



MANY, n. men'ny. A multitude; a great number of individuals; the people.



O thou fond many.



The vulgar and the many are fit only to be led or driven.



MANY, n. men'ny. A retinue of servants; household.



Whereas the word “all” means (again with Webster’s):



All

ALL, a. awl. [Gr. Shemitic from calah, to be ended or completed to perfect.]



1. Every one, or the whole number of particulars.



2. The whole quantity, extent, duration, amount, quality, or degree; as, all the wheat; all the land; all the year; all the strength. This word signifies then, the whole or entire thing, or all the parts or particulars which compose it. It always precedes the definitive adjectives, the, my, thy, his, our, your, their; as, all the cattle; all my labor; all thy goods; all his wealth; all our families; all your citizens; all their property.



ALL, adv. Wholly; completely; entirely

ALL, n.



1. The whole number; as, all have not the same disposition; that is, all men.



2. The whole; the entire thing; the aggregate amount; as, our all is at stake.



And Laban said, all that thou seest is mine. Gen 31.



This adjective is much used as a noun, and applied to persons or things.



All in all is a phrase which signifies, all things to a person, or every thing desired.

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Gen 24:1 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD… I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;



Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.



God knew all things, why did God say many would be saved as he refered to here:Mark 14:24 “ And he said unto them, ‘ This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.’” .”(KJV)



He shed his blood for many not all. Jesus said so. The infallible word of God said so. I’m just repeating to you what was written.



DIANAC said:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
DIANAC said:
.

Many were made sinners. Who are sinners? Everyone, a very large number.

Many shall be made righteous. Who will be made righteous? Some, a large number by the time Christ returns. Again, MANY means a very large number.

be well,

Diana




For it is written: “There is none righteous, no not one.” Therefore all are sinners!

 
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HITR

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kw5kw said:
Shall we look for a moment at a few verses?


Thanks, kw5kw, for sharing this. Many good verses to look at, I agree. :)

Before we go back and forth with "it says many" and "it says all," (we could do this all day, truth be told!), I wonder what your thoughts are on this.

If Jesus did not give Himself up that all would have an opportunity to recieve Him through faith, how do you reconcile what He said and did at the passover supper?

At the passover, Jesus was sitting and speaking with all 12 of His disciples. Judas, having not yet physically betrayed Him (though in His heart, he already had devised such wickedness) was amongst them. Jesus told them all, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. " Luke 22:19 Judas was amongst those the Lord was speaking to. He was included in the "you," though he was to betray the Christ. When the cup was passed, it was again passed to all 12, and He said, "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." Luke 22:20 Again, Judas was given of the cup from which to drink. The offering was made to all of them, in spite of this truth: "But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" Luke 21-22

The offer was made to all, despite the fact that one was amongst them that was not truly of them. As Jesus himself said, His body was given, and His blood was shed, for the remission of sins for all of those, yet not all received Him.

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" John 1:11-12

To those that received Him, He then gave the power to become the sons of God, praise be to the Lord!

Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. They must be complimentary, and in this I find that they are such, and reconcile perfectly. So again, as I said we could discuss the meanings of "many" and "all" throughout the day, yet when push comes to shove, how do they reconcile and compliment one another? That's where it all comes together, imho. Otherwise, it is merely nothing more than circular debate to prove a point.

Limited Atonement; sounds like it as “many were called, but few were chosen.”

Ultimate grace: The offer made for all, yet received by few; the sacrifice made for all, yet applied to few.

Blessings, HITR
 
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Edial

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DIANAC said:
kw5kw, Impressive study. May I continue looking into it further?

You rightly noted that MANY is Strong's 4183




This little word is a classic study case on how just a twist in the meaning of the word can create a theology. (Or maybe a theology adjusted a correct understanding of the word). How did you come to a conclusion that MANY is inclusive/exclusive? How can one conclude that MANY means all or some? Look into any dictionary. Many means a large number. Correction: a very large number. This is the same many 4183 as in
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great 4183 [is] your reward in heaven.
Here we go: MANY means a very great number. Furthermore, The Bible gives us a word study on MANY. Please consider this scripture:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many were made sinners. Who are sinners? Everyone, a very large number.
Many shall be made righteous. Who will be made righteous? Some, a large number by the time Christ returns. Again, MANY means a very large number.
be well,
Diana
Thanks,
I personally am a bit stunned that people knowingly present "many" as a part of a whole and not as an amount, quantity.

And I was actually deceived like that once :) and began considering the Limited Atonement (Calvinism) as something that is in the Bible.
It took me a few days before I snapped out of it once I saw that many means a quantity, an amount.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Edial said:
Sure it was for Israel only. But the gospel also spread to the rest of the world, the Gentiles. And after the resurrection atonement was also applied appropriately.

Thanks,
Ed

Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement was a foreshadowing of the Atonement of Christ. It pointed directly to the Atonement that Messiah would make for HIS people, just as on Yom Kippur. The Atonement was made for HIS people whom the Father had given Him as an inheritance and displayed the great love between the Father and the Son for all creation to witness.

There is always continuity between the types and shadows of the OT and the realized substance of the NT. Just as the Atonement on Yom Kippur was ONLY for Israel, so the substance which is Christ was the Atonement for Israel, both natural branches and the ingrafted branches.

Just as Jesus said, "I lay down My life for the sheep." Israel, natural and ingrafted are the sheep. None others are ever referred to as "sheep" except God's people. NONE.
 
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Edial

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kw5kw said:
Many does not mean ‘all’, many means (according to Webster’s Dictionary):

Many

MANY, a. men'ny.



1. Numerous; comprising a great number of individuals.



Now, didn't she just say that many is a very large number?

Originally Posted by: DIANAC
quot-by-right.gif
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Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
.

Many were made sinners. Who are sinners? Everyone, a very large number.

Many shall be made righteous. Who will be made righteous? Some, a large number by the time Christ returns. Again, MANY means a very large number.

be well,

Diana
</FONT>
And according to Romans, "many" can include all (v.19) [all are sinners] or not all.
But in any case, "many" is just a great number.

Calvinists however, often present that "many" is a part of a whole (Christ died for many).

Thanks,
Ed
 
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MeekOne

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Edial said:
If the Word is quite clear that he died ONLY for all that believe - where? :)
Right here, Ed:

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Hello, its nice to meet you, BTW. See, it is rather simple. God sent His only Son to die for all, but He already knew who would accept His truth and who would die in unrighteousness.

Stay happy! :wave:
 
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Edial

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement was a foreshadowing of the Atonement of Christ. It pointed directly to the Atonement that Messiah would make for HIS people, just as on Yom Kippur. The Atonement was made for HIS people whom the Father had given Him as an inheritance and displayed the great love between the Father and the Son for all creation to witness.

There is always continuity between the types and shadows of the OT and the realized substance of the NT. Just as the Atonement on Yom Kippur was ONLY for Israel, so the substance which is Christ was the Atonement for Israel, both natural branches and the ingrafted branches.

Just as Jesus said, "I lay down My life for the sheep." Israel, natural and ingrafted are the sheep. None others are ever referred to as "sheep" except God's people. NONE.
But he did not lay down his life ONLY for his sheep.
He layed it down for the whole world, yet they refused him.

In one of the verses he Paul stated that he died for one brother. Does that mean he died only for that brother?

Atonement was for Israel, because the gospel was preached to Israel.
Then, as the Gentiles became included in the distribution of the Gospel so the Atonement became applicable.

So, in the NT the Atonement is for the Jews, and the Gentiles. ... yet many will reject him.

Thanks,
Ed
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Edial said:
Let's look at this text -

JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

JN 6:41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven'?"

JN 6:43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who did Jesus come for?
He came for Israel, the 12. He even stated so to one of the women.

Did anyone outside of the 12 believed in him?
No. Even the other disciples scattered when one "dificult" and unpalatable teaching was presented to them.

So, the Father gave him the 12. :)


That is as horrible an example of Scriptorture, and eisegesis as I have ever seen. Your conclusion is so far off and absolutely ridiculous that you make Benny Hinn look like a Rhodes scholar.
 
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Edial

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
That is as horrible an example of Scriptorture, and eisegesis as I have ever seen. Your conclusion is so far off and absolutely ridiculous that you make Benny Hinn look like a Rhodes scholar.
Why are you horrified?
If you can show the error - show it.
But if you cannot, why should your horrors be valid?

Ed
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Edial

You posted our Lord gave himself as a RANSOM for all. O.K, since you believe Christ gave himself as a ransom, just what do you believe he ransomed all men from? Was this a finished ransom or what?








holdon said:
Why are you twisting what's being said? The Bible says: Christ gave himself a ransom for all. Nobody, nor the bible nor Edial nor I said that Christ ransomed all men.

Please read.

Stop being so dishonest.

You know very well that you and the rest of the semi-pelagian Arminians assert that Christ's Atonement was for all men.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Edial said:
Why are you horrified?
If you can show the error - show it.
But if you cannot, why should your horrors be valid?

Ed


Let's look at this text -

JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

JN 6:41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven'?"

JN 6:43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who did Jesus come for?
He came for Israel, the 12. He even stated so to one of the women.


How did you come to that absolutely ridiculous conclusion from that passage?

You read it into it is how. You allowed ignorant bias to lead you to read into the passage something that does not exist.
 
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MeekOne

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
You know very well that you and the rest of the semi-pelagian Arminians assert that Christ's Atonement was for all men.
***tiptoes around so as not to get punched out in the midst of posting***

Not to seem like I'm up for an argument, but I just read the entire thread, and this is the message I received. :)
 
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holdon

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
Stop being so dishonest.

You know very well that you and the rest of the semi-pelagian Arminians assert that Christ's Atonement was for all men.

Why are you always accusing others of being dishonest?

"Christ gave Himself a ransom for all men" is not the same as "He ransomed all men".

Try to read better....
 
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MeekOne

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There are 2 timelines in the Bible. One is for the Jews, and the other is for the Gentiles. Jesus came to preach to His own, and had very little to do with the Gentiles with a few exceptions. Even though He did atone for all mankind, He knew only few would accept Him.

It wasn't until Saul/Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, was met on the road to Damascus by the Lord Himself that the mystery of the age of Grace was made known to the entire world as well as the Jews. This can be confusing, but it is where you seem to be getting hung up. I can't explain it all today, but will come back again soon to lay it all out for you, if you like. :)
 
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HITR

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kw5kw said:
For it is written: “There is none righteous, no not one.” Therefore all are sinners!

Yet the Word that says, "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." Romans 5:15

The very same word for many (&#960;&#959;&#955;&#965;&#962; - which is polus) used here to show that His intent was only for "many" is used for the "many" that be dead due to the offense which set in motion the need for a Saviour.

So on one hand, you say that many means all (as quoted above, all are sinners, of which we agree). On the other hand, you say the same word many means some. This is why I continue to maintain that we could discuss greek and hebrew meanings of words all day, and that they absolutely must be able to reconcile and be complimentary rather than contradictory. It is this very thing that causes me to tend to abstain from such studies in a forum such as this. The focus tends to become more centered on the letter of the law rather than the Spirit of the law.

How do these reconcile and still stand up to what you're advocating? It's not a sarcastic question, I genuinely would love to know how you are seeing this. :)

Many blessings, HITR
 
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MeekOne said:
There are 2 timelines in the Bible. One is for the Jews, and the other is for the Gentiles. Jesus came to preach to His own, and had very little to do with the Gentiles with a few exceptions. Even though He did atone for all mankind, He knew only few would accept Him.

It wasn't until Saul/Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, was met on the road to Damascus by the Lord Himself that the mystery of the age of Grace was made known to the entire world as well as the Jews. This can be confusing, but it is where you seem to be getting hung up. I can't explain it all today, but will come back again soon to lay it all out for you, if you like. :)
I was wondering when the dispensationalists whould chime in. There are not two timelines but one.
 
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