Hell

I am in total agreeance that the wages of sin is death not eternal torture, this is the point i'm trying to convey to ODSOLO that we in this era give "hell" a meaning that is not in line with the whole Biblical concept when studied completely and not one scripture at a time.

ArohaB said:

I am in total agreeance that the wages of sin is death not eternal torture, this is the point i'm trying to convey to ODSOLO that we in this era give "hell" a meaning that is not in line with the whole Biblical concept when studied completely and not one scripture at a time.

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Rev 20;14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death.

Odsolo said:

I don’t understand your question. My point was YOU misrepresented both Jewish Encyclopedia articles, I posted. You made the false assertion that “most” references in both articles were “assumed,” when the word was only used twice in each article.

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No, I said what about the point about hell being created on the 6th day, and you said you were quoting encyclopedia and that you didn't agree with all of it.

Do I disagree with some things stated in the articles, yes,

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Which is why I'm wondering why are you representing something you don't even agree with?

but that is irrelevant to my point. The false assertion has been repeated over an over again that sheol and Gehinnom(Heb)/Gehenna(Gr) “always” meant “grave” or “pit,” and never, ever, ever, meant “hell.” I have proved from Jewish sources that to be false. In ancient pre-Christian Judaism “Gehinnom” was synonymous with hell, a place of eternal, never ending, punishment.

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Well if they mean all of those things and hell is a literal place, then how can it also mean grave or pit and still be the same thing?

Were there different views in both articles, yes, but again irrelevant. Among the Jews of Jesus’ day there were, at least, four distinct divisions; scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. The Pharisees and Sadducees had conflicting views on resurrection. The fact that some Jews, i.e. Sadducees, did not believe in the resurrection, only proves that they did not believe in the resurrection, it proves abso-diddly nothing about any other doctrine.

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Which is exactly my point in the next statement below.

What is your point? I was saying your discourse on Maori culture is irrelevant to this discussion. If you have a point to make about the culture of pre-Christian, and first century, Judaism, and Christianity and its relationship to this topic, hell, please state it.

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See how this fits in, it is a cultural belief that they held, that does not make it right!

It is not necessary to apologize to me, I merely pointed out where you were making assertions about something you knew nothing about. How many more scriptural things do you not know anything about?

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It's not that I didn't know what I was talking about, all that happened was I wrote the two languages the wrong way around. If I didn't think I had found an understanding on the subject I wouldn't bother to post about it.

What do you mean the entire product of the Bible?

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I mean when you compare one word up against a whole message, if it doesn't make sense then you need to go back and see why it is there and how it fits in with a whole message.

It is irrelevant what interpretation is assigned to “Gehenna, sheol, hades, or “hell,” today. Remember your reference to culture? The only relevant culture is that of the first century Jews and Christians. The modern culture that has spawned hundreds of opposing denominations, and heresies, is totally irrelevant to Bible interpretation. “Gehenna”and ‘sheol,” meant hell, a place of eternal, unending punishment, to the Jews before the time of Christ and it meant the same thing to Jesus. Here is a link to one of my posts in another thread where I listed twenty five (25) passages, Jesus speaking on the final place and condition of the wicked. That is enough culture for me.

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I see what you are saying, but like I've said before Jesus didn't argue with meanings of words like we are he was more interested in getting a message across.

buddy mack said:

Rev 20;14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death.

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How can you take this literally? Have you read the statement slowly it says and...death...and...hell...were...cast...into...the...lake...of...fire,...this...is...the...second...death. If death is cast into a lake of fire how can it be called a second death, since there would be no such thing as death left because it is in the lake of fire. It must mean something else!

ArohaB said:

How can you take this literally? Have you read the statement slowly it says and...death...and...hell...were...cast...into...the...lake...of...fire,...this...is...the...second...death. If death is cast into a lake of fire how can it be called a second death, since there would be no such thing as death left because it is in the lake of fire. It must mean something else!

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Hello,

You'll find the angel of death was cast into the LOF from the BofRevelation.

Those who are ressurected to the White Throne Judgement die the second death. They die twice.

<><

The Gregorian said:

I'm actually pretty surprised... it sure seems that everyone so far isn't taking the 'normal' viewpoint of hell. Most arguements I've seen so far seem to point to hell being an idea not originally in the bible (which I agree with).

If I'm wrong about this, in your next post, would you mind correcting me? Even odsolo and Aroha seem to both be arguing about hell not existing... (no offense Aroha... but it does look like you two are arguing about agreeing).

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Not original? Hmmm.....how about Lazarus and the rich man?

What about Samuel? He came up out of the depths of the earth.....where was he?

<><

The Gregorian said:

I'm actually pretty surprised... it sure seems that everyone so far isn't taking the 'normal' viewpoint of hell. Most arguements I've seen so far seem to point to hell being an idea not originally in the bible (which I agree with).

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Something you may find interesting. Copied from Fausset's bible dictionary.

Hell

Representing two distinct words: Gehenna and Hades (Greek), Sheol (Hebrew). Gehenna) is strictly "the valley of Hinnom" (Jos_15:8; Neh_11:30); "the valley of the children of Hinnom" (2Ki_23:10); "the valley of the son of Hinnom" (2Ch_28:3); "the valley of dead bodies," or Tophet, where malefactors' dead bodies were cast, S. of the city (Jer_31:40). A deep narrow glen S. of Jerusalem, where, after Ahaz introduced the worship of the fire gods, the sun, Baal, Moloch, the Jews under Manasseh made their children to pass through the fire (2Ch_33:6), and offered them as burntofferings (Jer_7:31; Jer_19:2-6). So the godly Josiah defiled the valley, making it a receptacle of carcass and criminals' corpses, in which worms were continually gendering.

A perpetual fire was kept to consume this putrefying matter; hence it became the image of that awful place where all that are unfit for the holy city are cast out a prey to the ever gnawing "worm" of conscience from within and the "unquenchable fire" of torments from without. Mar_9:42-50, "their worm dieth not." implies that not only the worm but they also on whom it preys die not; the language is figurative, but it represents corresponding realities never yet experienced, and therefore capable of being conveyed to us only by figures. The phrase "forever and ever " (eis tous aionas aioonoon) occurs 20 times in New Testament: 16 times of God, once of the saints' future blessedness, the three remaining of the punishment of the wicked and of the evil one: is it likely it is used 17 times of absolute eternity, yet three times of limited eternity?

The term for "everlasting" (aidiois) in Jud_1:6, "the angels who kept not their first estate He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day," is from a word meaning absolutely "always" (aei). Gehenna is used by our Lord Jesus (Mat_5:29-30; Mat_10:28; Mat_23:15; Mat_23:33; Luk_12:5); with the addition "of fire," Mat_5:22; Mat_18:9; Mar_9:47; and by James (Jam_3:6). Our present meaning of "hell" then applies to Gehenna, but not to the other word Hades or Sheol. "Hell" formerly did apply when the KJV of the Bible was written; it then meant "hole," "hollow," or unseen place.

Sheol comes from a root "to make hollow," the common receptacle of the dead below the earth (Num_16:30; Deu_32:22), deep (Job_11:8), insatiable (Isa_5:14; Son_8:6). "Hell," Hades, often means the "grave" (Job_14:13). In the Old Testament time, when as yet Christ had not "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2Ti_1:10), death and the intermediate state represented by Hades suggested thoughts of gloom (as to Hezekiah, Isa_38:9-20), lit up however with gleams of sure hope from God's promises of the resurrection (Psa_16:10-11; Psa_17:15; Isa_26:19; Hos_13:14; Dan_12:2). Hints too occur of the spirit's being with God in peace in the intermediate state (Ecc_3:21; Ecc_12:7; Psa_23:6; Psa_139:8; Isa_57:2).

The passages which represent Hades and the grave as a place where God can no longer be praised mean simply that the physical powers are all suspended, so that God's peruses can be no longer set forth on earth among the living. The anomalous state in which man is unclothed of the body is repulsive to the mind, and had not yet the clear gospel light to make it attractive as Paul viewed it (Phi_1:21-23; 2Co_5:6-8). To the bad Hades was depicted as a place of punishment, where God's wrath reached to the depths (Deu_32:22; Amo_9:2; Psa_9:17; Psa_49:14; Isaiah 14). Thus, the unseen state even in Old Testament was regarded as having a distinction between the godly and the ungodly; Pro_14:32, "the wicked is driven away in his wickedness, but the righteous hath hope in his death"; so Psalm 1.

This is further confirmed by the separation of the rich man and Lazarus, the former in "hell" (Hades), the latter in "Abraham's bosom" (Luk_16:23), and in the penitent thief's soul going to be with Jesus in "paradise," the word implying the recovery in heavenly bliss of the paradise lost by Adam (Luk_23:43). "Tartarus," the pagan Greek term for the place of enchainment of the Titans, rebels against God, occurs in 2Pe_2:4 of the lost angels; the "deep," or "abyss," or "bottomless pit," (abussos) Luk_8:31; Rev_9:11. The firm faith and hope of an abiding heavenly city is unequivocally attributed to the patriarchs (Heb_11:16-35);. so all the believing Israelites (Act_26:7; Act_23:6-9). Hades, "hell," is used for destruction (Mat_11:23; Mat_16:18). Jesus has its keys, and will at last consign it to the lake of fire which is the second death; implying that Christ and His people shall never again be disembodied spirits.

Rev_1:18; Rev_20:13-14; I can release at will from the unseen world of spirits, the anomalous state wherein the soul is severed from the body. The "spirits in prison" (1Pe_3:19) mean the ungodly antediluvians shut up in this earth, one vast prison, and under sentence of death and awaiting execution (Isa_24:22); not the prison of Hades. (See SPIRITS IN PRISON.) It is solemnly significant of the certainty of hell that He who is Love itself has most plainly and fully warned men of it, that they may flee from it. Tophet, the scene of human immolations by fire to Moloch amidst sounds of drums (tof) to drown the cries of the victims, symbolized the funeral pyre of Sennacherib's Assyrian army, and finally the lake of fire that shall burn for ever the lost (Isa_30:33). (See TOPHET.)

In an Assyrian tablet of the goddess Ishtar, daughter of Sin, the moon goddess, Hades is described as having seven gates," the house of the departed, the house from within which is no exit, the road the course of which never returns, the place within which they long for light, where dust is their nourishment and their food mud, light is never seen, in darkness they dwell, spirits like birds fill its vaults, over the door and its bolts is scattered dust!" What a contrast to the gospel (2Ti_1:10).

Charlie V said:

Of course, you've absolutely proved it. After all, nobody could question the word of Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau, nor claim that he's repeating the revisionist history. Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau's truth supercedes God's truth. There are no fallacies like "Appeal to Authority," and the words of Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau are unquestionable.

Charlie

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Rubbish, and nonsense. Did you even bother to read the article before posting this scatological emesis? First it is a standard reference work, while it was edited by the scholars named, it was reviewed before publication, and many times, since it was first published in 1910. Second, it was not just the unsupported opinions of the author, as yours are, but it was researched and documented. Do you want me to explain what "researched" and "documented" means? Apparently you are not familiar with real Biblical research.

The logical fallacy "Appeal to authority" refers to when a cited "authority" is not qualified in the particular field, was joking, intoxicated, or for some other reason was not speaking as an authority, at the time. Can you show this to be true of the Jewish Encyclopedia? Care to get in my face again and demonstrate you don't know what you are talking about?

God's truth? You don't recognize it. It was cited in the article by people who know the original language. Here is God's truth interpret it for me Mr. Bible expert.

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FreezBee said:

Well done, Charlie

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ArohaB said:

How can you take this literally? Have you read the statement slowly it says and...death...and...hell...were...cast...into...the...lake...of...fire,...this...is...the...second...death. If death is cast into a lake of fire how can it be called a second death, since there would be no such thing as death left because it is in the lake of fire. It must mean something else!

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The phenomena of death, which is the cessation of life, that happens at a finite point in time, has no physcial characteristics and cannot be thrown anywhere. Hell as understood by historical Christianity, NOT Universalists or Annihilationists, does have physical characteristics and can conceivably be thrown somewhere.

But if "hell" is only the grave, as is being claimed in this thread, then how do millions and millions of graves get thrown into the LOF? Does God rip up the holes and thrown empty air into the LOF? What about those whose grave is the sea, does God throw sea water into the LOF? How does that work?

Or did John tell us in an earlier chapter who, not what, was thrown into the LOF? Meet the angel of death and the demon of hell. We first encounter this angel in Exodus, the night of the death of the first born in Egypt. And when they are thrown into the LOF their power to kill and destroy is ended.

Note, they are referred to with personal pronouns, he, him, them, etc. Not impersonal, it, that, etc. This is known as harmonizing scripture, vs out-of-context proof texting as is being done above.
[bible]Revelation 6:8[/bible]

Charlie V said:

The false assertion is that Sheol and Gehenna (two different words) were synonymous with hell.

For example, regarding Gehinnom:

Regarding Sheol: * * **SNIP* Irrelevant proof texting that ignores Scripture already posted. *SNIP*

Hell is a place you can go down in peace to in old age? *SNIP* ditto

Hell is a place we may be together on the dust and we may rest? *SNIP* ditto

Charlie

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“[SIZE=-1]The false assertion is that Sheol and Gehenna (two different words) were synonymous with hell[/SIZE].” Gee whiz, this must be right, just repeat it a few hundred times, while ignoring any evidence to the contrary. I posted evidence, I see none which support this.

There is no scriptural evidence that any amount of obedience to the law or personal righteousness will save anyone from the grave. But, for the ancient Jews “hell” was “Gehinnom (Heb),” and it was a literal place of fire and eternal, unending, punishment, which could be avoided.

In the N.T. Jesus spoke of “Gehenna (Gk)” as a literal, place of fire and eternal, unending, punishment, which could be avoided. Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; 16:18 Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 16:23-25, 28, and others.

FreezBee said:

I read you loud and clearly. I'm just informing you that we have reason to believe (if you acknowledge such a construct as meaningful) that, when "Sheol" is mentioned in the Psalms, it simply means a place, where the dead end up without being punished, but simply "living" in lifelessness. That was the meaning, when the Psalms were written, even if official Judaism later came to identify "Sheol" and "Gehenna" - but that's not an original identification.

Now, make up your mind: do you want to know, what "Sheol" meant in the OT, where that word is used, or what 1. century Jews (and Christians) had decided that it ought to mean? FreezBee

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If you can prove the first century Jews and Christians had a different understanding of “sheol” and “Gehinnom,” than their pre-Christian era predecessors, then post it and stop asking argumentative, irrelevant, questions.

“[SIZE=-1]when "Sheol" is mentioned in the Psalms, it simply means a place, where the dead end up without being punished, but simply "living" in lifelessness[/SIZE].” If that is true then why does this Psalm say only the wicked and those that forget God go to “sheol?”
[bible]psalm 9:17[/bible]

In Proverbs 23:14, Solomon said that punishing a child will keep him from dying and being buried in a grave, according to the above definitions of “sheol.”.
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to the above definitions of “sheol,” he was buried in the grave and knew nothing.

But in this account I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol. These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events.

I know, you can say that vss. 11-14, are literal, but vss. 9-10, and 15 are symbolic, allegorical, or some such. This is called “special pleading.” The meaning of words and phrases “change,” to fit whichever false doctrine anyone wants to “prove.”

But, the ancient Jews believed, “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10)”
Link: Jewish Encylopedia -. Gehenna

Once again in ancient Judaism, “Gehinnom” or “Gehenna” came to represent the place of the damned, and eternal, everlasting, unending punishment. See link above.

ArohaB said:

No, I said what about the point about hell being created on the 6th day, and you said you were quoting encyclopedia and that you didn't agree with all of it.

Which is why I'm wondering why are you representing something you don't even agree with?

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I explained that more than once. It is totally and absolutely irrelevant that I do not agree with some of the views expressed in the Jewish Encyclopedia. I neither believe nor disblieve that hell was created on the sixth day. It was created, the day is irrelevant.

The blatantly false assertion that “hell” and “eternal punishment” are NOT taught in the O.T. has been posted here over and over again. The Jewish Encyclopedia proves that false.

The ancient Jews knew their scriptures and understood the Hebrew, according to Jewish scriptures there IS a literal “hell” a literal place of eternal, unending, punishment. Some Jews had different thoughts? So what? In very, very few groups do all members walk in lock step, unison, with every other member. That is nothing new, that is why we are having this discussion.

Well if they mean all of those things and hell is a literal place, then how can it also mean grave or pit and still be the same thing?

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Simple, read your Bible and find out how many other words have more than one meaning. For example, “name,” as well as an appellation that identifies a particular person or thing, it also means rank, authority, command, etc.

See how this fits in, it is a cultural belief that they held, that does not make it right!

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Let me get this straight, you don’t know diddly about Hebrew or the ancient Jewish culture, but you decide that the Jews did not know their own language, their definition of their own Hebrew words was a “cultural belief” and was wrong? All this without a shred of evidence.

I mean when you compare one word up against a whole message, if it doesn't make sense then you need to go back and see why it is there and how it fits in with a whole message.

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That is your error, you don’t know scripture. You say one word, but there are series of words and passages, had you even bothered to read the articles, you would know this. If you stick your head in the sand and ignore the history of the church, including the Jewish faith, which I have documented, you have no “whole message.”

All you have is few of out-of-context proof texts and some nonsense about “cultural belief.” The ONLY culture relevant to this discussion is the ancient Jewish and the first century Christian and Jewish cultures. It does not matter one bit what you or some bunch of people, with abso-diddly no knowledge of Hebrew or Jewish culture, decided in the 18th, 19th, or 20th century.

I see what you are saying, but like I've said before Jesus didn't argue with meanings of words like we are he was more interested in getting a message across.

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And this is supposed to mean exactly what? Jesus had a lot to say about the correct interpretation of scripture. How many times does Jesus say, “You have heard it said. . . but I say to you.?” The message I am trying to get across is truth. A lot of folks here seem to think all you have to do is keep repeating, “Sheol and Gehenna never meant hell, they only meant grave or pit.” over and over and over again, and that somehow makes them right. And notice when real, historical, evidence is presented they don’t even read it, but resort to insults, name calling, and asinine comments.

Odsolo, you are very smart at what you do, and I'm not going to reply to everything you type because you have more knowledge about the early church and greek etc. than I do. but on the case of Jewish beliefs in the afterlife.......

Answers.com Encyclopedia said:

Rabbinic Judaism
Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "Hell", but this doesn't effectively convey its meaning. In Judaism, Gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place — is not hell. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden (Heaven), where all imperfections are purged. This, however, is a matter of debate among some Jews.

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I think I've posted similar quotes from different sources like this one.

Ancient Judaism considered death to be final and did not have a notion of the afterlife. Similarly, the word "Hell" shares the same root as words such as hill, as in hillside, or heel, as in the heel of a foot. In this sense, Hell was originally viewed as a covering, much like a grave, and did not denote eternal punishment but the mere end of life. Biblical scholars have been working to correct the overuse and overestimation of the word Hell in more modern translations. The Authorized King James Bible, translated on the heels of the Dark Ages, contains the word Hell 54 times. The New King James Bible contains it only 32 times, and the New American Standard version only 13 times. Again, the notion of eternal torment in Hell is a development of late Christianity.

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If you disagree, please don't use sarcasm

Soul Searcher said:

Something you may find interesting. Copied from Fausset's bible dictionary.

Hell

Representing two distinct words: Gehenna and Hades (Greek), Sheol (Hebrew). Gehenna) is strictly "the valley of Hinnom" (Jos_15:8; Neh_11:30); "the valley of the children of Hinnom" (2Ki_23:10); "the valley of the son of Hinnom" (2Ch_28:3); "the valley of dead bodies," or Tophet, where malefactors' dead bodies were cast, S. of the city (Jer_31:40). A deep narrow glen S. of Jerusalem, where, after Ahaz introduced the worship of the fire gods, the sun, Baal, Moloch, the Jews under Manasseh made their children to pass through the fire (2Ch_33:6), and offered them as burntofferings (Jer_7:31; Jer_19:2-6). So the godly Josiah defiled the valley, making it a receptacle of carcass and criminals' corpses, in which worms were continually gendering.

A perpetual fire was kept to consume this putrefying matter; hence it became the image of that awful place where all that are unfit for the holy city are cast out a prey to the ever gnawing "worm" of conscience from within and the "unquenchable fire" of torments from without. Mar_9:42-50, "their worm dieth not." implies that not only the worm but they also on whom it preys die not; the language is figurative, but it represents corresponding realities never yet experienced, and therefore capable of being conveyed to us only by figures. The phrase "forever and ever " (eis tous aionas aioonoon) occurs 20 times in New Testament: 16 times of God, once of the saints' future blessedness, the three remaining of the punishment of the wicked and of the evil one: is it likely it is used 17 times of absolute eternity, yet three times of limited eternity?

The term for "everlasting" (aidiois) in Jud_1:6, "the angels who kept not their first estate He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day," is from a word meaning absolutely "always" (aei). Gehenna is used by our Lord Jesus (Mat_5:29-30; Mat_10:28; Mat_23:15; Mat_23:33; Luk_12:5); with the addition "of fire," Mat_5:22; Mat_18:9; Mar_9:47; and by James (Jam_3:6). Our present meaning of "hell" then applies to Gehenna, but not to the other word Hades or Sheol. "Hell" formerly did apply when the KJV of the Bible was written; it then meant "hole," "hollow," or unseen place.

Sheol comes from a root "to make hollow," the common receptacle of the dead below the earth (Num_16:30; Deu_32:22), deep (Job_11:8), insatiable (Isa_5:14; Son_8:6). "Hell," Hades, often means the "grave" (Job_14:13). In the Old Testament time, when as yet Christ had not "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2Ti_1:10), death and the intermediate state represented by Hades suggested thoughts of gloom (as to Hezekiah, Isa_38:9-20), lit up however with gleams of sure hope from God's promises of the resurrection (Psa_16:10-11; Psa_17:15; Isa_26:19; Hos_13:14; Dan_12:2). Hints too occur of the spirit's being with God in peace in the intermediate state (Ecc_3:21; Ecc_12:7; Psa_23:6; Psa_139:8; Isa_57:2).

The passages which represent Hades and the grave as a place where God can no longer be praised mean simply that the physical powers are all suspended, so that God's peruses can be no longer set forth on earth among the living. The anomalous state in which man is unclothed of the body is repulsive to the mind, and had not yet the clear gospel light to make it attractive as Paul viewed it (Phi_1:21-23; 2Co_5:6-8). To the bad Hades was depicted as a place of punishment, where God's wrath reached to the depths (Deu_32:22; Amo_9:2; Psa_9:17; Psa_49:14; Isaiah 14). Thus, the unseen state even in Old Testament was regarded as having a distinction between the godly and the ungodly; Pro_14:32, "the wicked is driven away in his wickedness, but the righteous hath hope in his death"; so Psalm 1.

This is further confirmed by the separation of the rich man and Lazarus, the former in "hell" (Hades), the latter in "Abraham's bosom" (Luk_16:23), and in the penitent thief's soul going to be with Jesus in "paradise," the word implying the recovery in heavenly bliss of the paradise lost by Adam (Luk_23:43). "Tartarus," the pagan Greek term for the place of enchainment of the Titans, rebels against God, occurs in 2Pe_2:4 of the lost angels; the "deep," or "abyss," or "bottomless pit," (abussos) Luk_8:31; Rev_9:11. The firm faith and hope of an abiding heavenly city is unequivocally attributed to the patriarchs (Heb_11:16-35);. so all the believing Israelites (Act_26:7; Act_23:6-9). Hades, "hell," is used for destruction (Mat_11:23; Mat_16:18). Jesus has its keys, and will at last consign it to the lake of fire which is the second death; implying that Christ and His people shall never again be disembodied spirits.

Rev_1:18; Rev_20:13-14; I can release at will from the unseen world of spirits, the anomalous state wherein the soul is severed from the body. The "spirits in prison" (1Pe_3:19) mean the ungodly antediluvians shut up in this earth, one vast prison, and under sentence of death and awaiting execution (Isa_24:22); not the prison of Hades. (See SPIRITS IN PRISON.) It is solemnly significant of the certainty of hell that He who is Love itself has most plainly and fully warned men of it, that they may flee from it. Tophet, the scene of human immolations by fire to Moloch amidst sounds of drums (tof) to drown the cries of the victims, symbolized the funeral pyre of Sennacherib's Assyrian army, and finally the lake of fire that shall burn for ever the lost (Isa_30:33). (See TOPHET.)

In an Assyrian tablet of the goddess Ishtar, daughter of Sin, the moon goddess, Hades is described as having seven gates," the house of the departed, the house from within which is no exit, the road the course of which never returns, the place within which they long for light, where dust is their nourishment and their food mud, light is never seen, in darkness they dwell, spirits like birds fill its vaults, over the door and its bolts is scattered dust!" What a contrast to the gospel (2Ti_1:10).

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Great post, Soul Seacher!

carl unger said:

In Judaism, Gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place — is not hell. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden (Heaven), where all imperfections are purged. This, however, is a matter of debate among some Jews.

Ancient Judaism considered death to be final and did not have a notion of the afterlife. . . .Hell was originally viewed as a covering, much like a grave, and did not denote eternal punishment but the mere end of life. Biblical scholars have been working to correct the overuse and overestimation of the word Hell in more modern translations. The Authorized King James Bible, translated on the heels of the Dark Ages, contains the word Hell 54 times. The New King James Bible contains it only 32 times, and the New American Standard version only 13 times. Again, the notion of eternal torment in Hell is a development of late Christianity.

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Don’t use sarcasm? Everything in red is false. I have already proved it from a standard Biblical reference, the Jewish Encyclopedia. OK how does this work, you ignore what I posted, you then burn up the internet trying to find something, by someone, somewhere, it doesn’t matter who, that says what you want to hear. You did not identify your source, and from what I can see the source did NOT provide one piece of historical evidence or documentation. Are you paying attention?

All you anti-hell people act like I made this stuff up. It is NOT Christian! I have been quoting a Jewish source, boys and girls. This same source calls Jesus a mamzer, that is a b&#97;stard and his mother a prostitute. So they certainly are not going to promote any Christian doctrine of hell, or anything else, unless it is thoroughly Jewish.

And that Jewish, NOT Christian, source, shows from scripture and ancient Jewish writings that the ancient Jews did, in fact, believe in a literal hell where the wicked were punished eternally, without end.

It does not matter how many websites you find that spew out swill denying that the ancient Jews did not believe in afterlife or hell, and that it was all a development of later Christianity. Yadah, yadah, yadah. None of them mean a thing without evidence. NOTHING! Without verifiable, historical, evidence and documentation it is all worthless. There is only one person here who has been providing verifiable, historical evidence. ME!

You are free to believe anything you want, shave your head, paint it blue run around naked and howl at the moon. And I don't care what you base your beliefs on. But if you are going to try to prove something is, or is not, a historical belief of either Judaism or Christianity, you need verifiable evidence. Can you provide any verifiable, historical, evidence that will refute anything I have posted?

Since you cannot, please do not imply or suggest that I am dishonest, lying, making things up, etc. just because you can find some RV dump website that will tell you exactly what you want to hear.

From the Western Catholic Reporter

"The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] will crow at the breaking of your own ego - there are lots of ways to wake up!"

John Shea gave me those words and I understood them a little better recently as I stood in line at an airport: I'd checked in for a flight, approached security, saw a huge line-up, and accepted the fact that it would take at least 40 minutes to get through it.

I was alright with the long wait and moved patiently in the line - until, just as my turn came, another security crew arrived, opened a second scanning machine, and a whole line-up of people, behind me, who hadn't waited the 40 minutes, got their turns almost immediately.

My Heart Isn't Always Generous

I still got my turn as I would have before, but something inside of me felt slighted and angry: "This wasn't fair! I'd been waiting for 40 minutes and they got their turns at the same time as I did!"

That experience taught me something, beyond the fact that my heart isn't always huge and generous. It helped me understand something about Jesus' parable concerning the workers who came at the 11th hour and received the same wages as those who'd worked all day and what is meant by the challenge that is given to those who grumbled about the unfairness of this.

Are we jealous because God is generous? Does it bother us when others are given unmerited gifts and forgiveness?

You bet! And ultimately that sense of injustice, of envy that someone else caught a break, is a huge stumbling block to our happiness. Why? Because something in us reacts negatively when it seems that life is not making others pay the same dues as we're paying.

In the Gospels, we see an incident where Jesus goes to the synagogue on a Sabbath, stands up to read and quotes a text from Isaiah - except he doesn't quote it fully but omits a part. The text (Isaiah 61:1-2) would have been well-known to his listeners and it describes Isaiah's vision of what will be the sign that God has finally broken into the world and irrevocably changed things.

And what will that be? For Isaiah, the sign that God is now ruling the earth will be good news for the poor, consolation for the broken-hearted, freedom for the enslaved, grace abundant for everyone and vengeance on the wicked.

Notice though, when Jesus quotes this, he leaves out the part about vengeance.

Unlike Isaiah, he doesn't say that part of our joy will be seeing the wicked punished. In heaven we will be given what we're owed and more (unmerited gift, forgiveness we don't deserve, joy beyond imagining) but, it seems, we will not be given the joy of seeing the wicked punished.

The joys of heaven will not include seeing Hitler suffer. Indeed the natural itch we have for strict justice ("An eye for an eye") is exactly that, a natural itch, something the Gospels invite us beyond. The desire for strict justice blocks our capacity for forgiveness and thereby prevents us from entering heaven where God, like the father of the prodigal son, embraces and forgives without demanding a pound of flesh for a pound of sin.

We know we need God's mercy, but if grace is true for us, it has to be true for everyone; if forgiveness is given us, it must be given everybody; and if God does not avenge our misdeeds, God must not avenge the misdeeds of others either. Such is the logic of grace and such is the love of the God to whom we must attune ourselves.

Happiness is not about vengeance, but about forgiveness, not about capital punishment, but about living beyond even murder. It is not surprising that, in some of the great saints, we see a theology bordering on universalism, namely, the belief that God will save everyone.

They believed this not because they didn't believe in hell or the possibility of forever excluding ourselves from God, but because they believed that God's love is so universal, so powerful, and so inviting that, ultimately, even those in hell will see the error of their ways, swallow their pride and give themselves over to love. The final triumph of God, they felt, will be when the devil himself converts and hell is empty.

Maybe that will never happen. God leaves us free. But, when I, or anyone else, is upset at an airport, at a parole-board hearing, or anywhere else where someone gets something we don't think he or she deserves, we have to accept that we're still a long ways from understanding and accepting the kingdom of God.

- By FR. RON ROLHEISER, omi

http://www.ronrolheiser.com/about.html

Fr. R.R.....What; Jesus the Saviour of the whole ungodly multitude left something out! Where will it all end?

[move]From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. Source, Guide and Goal of all that is to whom be glory for ever. Amen![/move]

Instead of Jewish encyclopedias and other extra biblical sources telling us what to believe...why don't we just let Jesus and the bible lead us?

Sheol/Hades was the "unseen" place of the dead. Under the old covenant of death EVERYONE went there when they died. Both the righteous and the unrighteous. They went there to await the Messianic work of Jesus and the judgement. Jesus shows this truth in Luke 21 when He gives us a glimpse into "Hades" and we see the unrighteous rich man in a place of torment and righteous Lazarus in "Abraham's Bosom", which was a place of comfort.....and those were BOTH in "Hades"....which is the OT Hebrew "Sheol".

"Gehenna" is the NT "Lake of Fire" and is NEVER spoken about in the OT because under the old covenant it wasn't a place where ANYONE went yet. It is only AFTER the return of Jesus and the judgement of the "sheep and goats" that anyone is cast there.

In the OT King David said in Psalm 16:9-11 :
9Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell(Sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

So David knew he was going to "Sheol", but he also knew he wouldn't be left there forever.

But look what Peter in Acts 2 says about that passage out of Psalms:



22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,(Hades) neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,(Hades) neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

So Peter when he quotes the OT passage about SHEOL uses the greek word HADES and not Gehenna. This shows that they were the same place. And Peter says that Jesus' soul was there, but wasn't left there. He was resurrected. This PROVES it wasn't the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). This also explains why Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire after the judgement. It is no longer needed. It was the Old covenant place of waiting for the Messianic work of Jesus and the final judgement. Now, under the new covenant, the book of Hebrews says :

"It is given unto man once to die AND THEN TO FACE THE JUDGEMENT"

So now when we die, we IMMEDIATELY face our judgement. We don't have to go to a place of waiting like the OT people did. Jesus has ALREADY finished His messianic work and (according to my preterist beliefs) He has ALREADY done the judgement of those OT people. King David is NOW in heaven...and the unbelievers are NOW in the Lake of Fire. The sheep and goats have NOW been divided and judged. Jesus enemies have ALREADY been made His footstool.

Then Peter goes on to say that King David had NOT YET ascended to heaven. That would only happen when Jesus enemies were made His "footstool".

So, if Jesus enemies haven't been made His footstool yet and the judgement hasn't happened yet, then King David TO THIS DAY is still in Sheol/Hades and hasn't YET ascended to heaven. None of those OT people have yet been judged and they are STILL waiting for their resurrection from the dead.

I am a preterst so I believe this ALL happened when Jesus returned in AD 70 within the generation when He lived and died and rose again. But that's another thread.

Paul makes it clear that Sheol and Hades meant the same thing and that Jesus soul went there....but wasn't left there. King David went there but also knew he wouldn't be left there forever. Jesus shows us that it was a place of BOTH righteous and unrighteous in Luke 21.

In speaking of the future resurrection:

1 Samuel 2:6
" The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Job says:

Job 14:13
"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
Job 17:13
"If I look for Sheol as my home,I make my bed in the darkness;
Job 17:16
"Will it go down with me to Sheol?Shall we together go down into the dust?"

King David says:

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,For He will receive me. Selah.
Psalm 139:8
If I ascend to heaven, You are there;If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Solomon says:

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

Isaiah says:

Isaiah 38:10
I said, " In the middle of my life I am to enter the gates of Sheol;I am to be deprived of the rest of my years."

Then there are MANY MANY OT scriptures that talk about the wicked and unrighteous going to sheol. So this shows that it was a place for BOTH the righteous and the wicked....but the righteous knew it wasn't their FINAL place. They knew it was a place of separation from life and from the presence of God, but they knew it was only FOR A TIME. They WAITED in hope of the resurrection and the Messiah. That hope was fulfilled (according to what I believe) in AD 70 when Jesus returned and resurrected them out of Sheol, judged the righteous and unrighteous (sheep and goats), and took the "dead in Christ" into the presence of God....and cast the unrighteous (along with Hades/Sheol) into the Lake of Fire.

EchoPneuma said:

Instead of Jewish encyclopedias and other extra biblical sources telling us what to believe...why don't we just let Jesus and the bible lead us?

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Echo: The Jewish Encyclopedia is only for those "who want to know the truth!" These guys readeth and writeth and understandeth Hebrew!

Gehenna: The Truth

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=gehenna