Preterism

Originally posted by Kelier


I could very easily say the same thing. I have never heard of preterism until about a year or so ago.

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Hi Kelier,
Kern is right futurism and the Rapture theory have only been around since the mid 1800's! Actually, the folks that Jesus and the Apostle's addressed during their lifetime were actually futurists! Believe it!

Originally posted by Wildfire

As for the desolation, it is partly fufilled, but there is still a second part to it. The vision is not complete.
>We are told that 'when ye shall SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies, know that the desolation is nigh.' I am not so certain that this city has been surrounded by armies the last 2000 years, but it looks that way now. Besides, how could we <the world> see this event without the help of modern technology? The same goes for the two witnesses who are killed in the streets of Jerusalem, <for the world to see> and then rise three days later. My my my.

As for these words:
"these things must shortly come to pass,"

And the desolation is still a future event, God help us all.
Wildfire [/B]

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Wildfire, Why would God only fulfill part of His great book called the Bible? I'm referring to what you state in your post about Daniel. I remember sending you a link about the abomination of desolation a few days ago, did you go check it out? The two witnesses in Rev? Where these actually two men that got killed and rose again? If you look in your Bible you will see where Jesus is giving the warning to His audience 2000 years ago about armies surrounding Jerusalem? Do you think Jesus was telling them about armies with tanks, helicopters, bazooka's, smart bombs, missles, and other hiTech equipment? Or was He telling them about the Roman armies? Ya think?
And then I notice you take another small portion of scripture out of context, "these things must shortly come to pass..... Sounds like John the Revelator here, if these things were about to shortly come to pass or about to happen, does that sound like two thousand or more years into the future???!!!

Originally posted by Wildfire

>We are told that 'when ye shall SEE Jerusalem compassed with armies, know that the desolation is nigh.' I am not so certain that this city has been surrounded by armies the last 2000 years, but it looks that way now. Besides, how could we <the world> see this event without the help of modern technology?

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Actually the disciples were told by Jesus that when "they" saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, it's desolation was near.

Guess what? in 66AD They saw it, and fled to the mountains to aviod it's desolation as their master commanded to do.

All things written were then fulfilled.

In verse 29 of Matthew 24 it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

I would like to know what the sun, moon and stars and powers of heaven refer to.

I started to read on this one time in the preterist archive, but couldn't find it again.

Blessings and thanks
Nancy

Hi Nancy,
"Sun , Moon, Stars, Heavens and Earth" are all common hebrew apocalyptic idioms used to represent earthly principalities, governments, nations, kindgoms and people.

When commotions or changes in Governments and nations is being described, the language used by the prophets depicts commotions in the material universe.

Here are a few of the many OT examples that show this to be true:

Psalms 148:3, Isaiah 13:10, Ezek. 32:7, Deuteronomy 32:1, Isaiah 1:2, Isaiah 51:16.

God Bless,
P70

Hi Nancy, P70 is correct -the sun moon and stars etc are Hebraisms referencing ruling authorities. A very clear biblical picture of this is also seen in Gen 37:9-10 where Joseph's family clearly understood him as refering to them in terms of "sun moon and stars." Scripture interpreting scripture is far more safe than relying on the "latest" on CNN etc -that type [or should I say hype] of eisegesis goes "beyond the scriptures" -something Paul said NOT to do.

davo

Thats what I had read at one point. Ruling authorities. Who were the ruling authorities at the time The temple was destroyed? were there 4?
Was one Rome?

Thanks
Nancy

Originally posted by Mandy
So the answer then is to spiritualize Revelation?

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Mandy, Please allow me to answer your question with a question.... Is not the Bible a spiritual book?

Originally posted by Shaggy
Do Preterists believe the time is at hand?

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Shag, Did you ever read someone else's mail? When you see words in the scripture that relate to time statements are you reading those words through first century eyes? That's what I mean about reading someone else's mail so to speak.
Think of it as a filter.... I used to read my Bible just like you.... through a futurist filter.... now I read the scripture through a past fulfilled (Preterist) filter! Try it, it will amaze you!

Gods timeframe is different than ours, I believe the time is at hand now, soon, maybe even in our lifetime we will see the return of God. [/B]

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What was near, soon, at hand and about to happen to them in the first century is long past for us today and it must be understood in that regard. Has the cross lost it's power just because it is now history? No Way! It is now all important because it happened as it was prophecied. I agree with you that God's time frame is not our time frame however, God is a timeless being. Therefore when God conveys a message to mankind and specifies the time of fulfillment, we can be sure that his message is in exact accordance with mankind's universal time. The scripture must speak for itself.

Originally posted by Back To The Future
Thats what I had read at one point. Ruling authorities. Who were the ruling authorities at the time The temple was destroyed? were there 4? Was one Rome?

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Don't discount Rome, but basically the cosmic cataclysmic language of the NT is referencing the Jewish hierachy and nation -the world of the Old Covenant was coming down.

davo

Originally posted by franklin


I used to read my Bible just like you.... through a futurist filter.... now I read the scripture through a past fulfilled (Preterist) filter! Try it, it will amaze you!

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You hit the nail right on the head: read the Bible through a preterist filter. This is exactly what I did while I was still a pre-wrath futurist ... and found myself converting to preterism in short order. Throw away your expectations (or paradigm) and allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves. Once they do, verify the Scriptures with history. You'll never read the Bible the same way again.

Wow guys I just had an epiphany. You know-sort of when the light bulb goes on. RE: The sun, moon, and stars as Jesus referred to them in Matthew 24 compared to the story of Joseph in Genesis. Look at these two passages next to each other:

Genesis 37:9

9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

Matthew 24:29

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
___" 'the sun will be darkened,
_______and the moon will not give its light;
___the stars will fall from the sky,
_______and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

Joseph was a "type" of Christ was he not? Obviously the 11 stars were his brothers, who were the fathers of the tribes (or nations) of Isreal-correct? Therefore the sun, moon and stars are a reference to biblical Isreal in both passages?

And wasn't the utter destruction of the entire Jewish theocratic nation in 70 A.D. a complete blotting out of the "sun, moon, and stars"?

You "older" Preterists are probably saying "DUH!" right now.

Yo Bobcat!! if there was a whistle I'd have included that too.

Originally posted by Mike Beidler


You hit the nail right on the head: read the Bible through a preterist filter. This is exactly what I did while I was still a pre-wrath futurist ... and found myself converting to preterism in short order. Throw away your expectations (or paradigm) and allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves. Once they do, verify the Scriptures with history. You'll never read the Bible the same way again.

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Aaaamen Mike, I won't dare say your last name!
I saw your testimony on planetpreterist weeks ago and just noticed it in this forum recently.... it's refreashing reading the scriptures that way isn't it? When I came to learn of preterism it was like the Lord lifted all the doubt and skeptisism right out of me!! In the past I must have went from pre to post to mid to pan whatever! I wish I would have learned about past fulfillment years ago when I was a new believer! I look forward to talking with you more... think I'll add you to my buddy list! If you don't mind?

Bobcat...
The stars were his 11 brothers and who do you think the sun and the moon, which were also bowing down to him, were?

Great insight Bobcat! Thanks for bringing that to our attention. I had stumbled on that comparason a while back while reading a "childrens bible" to my 2 year old, but it had since slipped my mind. Thanks for reminding me!

Even the most died in the wool literalist will encounter insurmountable difficulty when attempting to interprate Genesis 37:9 as "literal sun , moon & stars", yet they continue to willfully deny this precident setting scripture when interprating Matt 24, Revelation, 2 Peter 3, etc....

There comes a time, when the blind man takes your hand and says "don't ya see?"

jenlu: I'm only guessing-maybe some others could help me out.

I think the answer is in Gen 37:2 which reads:

[When he told his father as well as his brothers his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"]

I'd guess the sun and the moon in Gen 37:9 refers Joseph's parents. Also a few chapters back Joseph's father Jacob had his named changed to Isreal by God.

Looks to me like it fits anyway.

Bobcat...that was my point...definitely did not mean to seem like I was undermining your epiphany...I found that one as well and just wanted to fit the sun and moon in with the stars to a nice neat package...works perfectly...The Word is so Good...