Baptism.
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Depends on what you mean by baptism. The grammatical roots of the word "Baptism" is simply the dipping of oneself into something else.
In regards to baptism by water, the disciples and Jesus practiced baptism with a lot of water... at least a river full (the entire Jordan river). Whether or not that's enough for a sprinkle, I don't know. Seems like an aweful waste of water for just a few drops. I'd almost bet money they had a water fight afterwards.
When Peter says it is not the "washing away" of the water that saves you, but a clean concience toward God, logic would demand that washing anything takes more than just a few drops of water.
In regards to baptism by water, the disciples and Jesus practiced baptism with a lot of water... at least a river full (the entire Jordan river). Whether or not that's enough for a sprinkle, I don't know. Seems like an aweful waste of water for just a few drops. I'd almost bet money they had a water fight afterwards.
When Peter says it is not the "washing away" of the water that saves you, but a clean concience toward God, logic would demand that washing anything takes more than just a few drops of water.
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By baptism, I mean the Christian act of baptism.
So is a person who is not baptized in a river truly baptized(Christian Baptism)?
Originally posted by Josephus
When Peter says it is not the "washing away" of the water that saves you, but a clean concience toward God, logic would demand that washing anything takes more than just a few drops of water.
If we are talking about washing away a concience, does any amount of water even matter?
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"If we are talking about washing away a concience, does any amount of water even matter?"
No, but how was the Master himself baptised? It is recorded that "he came up out of the water."
1 Peter 3:20,21 "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
And if baptism is in any relation to the Flood of which Noah's family was saved through, then one should be convinced that the Flood was not just a sprinkle.
No, but how was the Master himself baptised? It is recorded that "he came up out of the water."
1 Peter 3:20,21 "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
And if baptism is in any relation to the Flood of which Noah's family was saved through, then one should be convinced that the Flood was not just a sprinkle.
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Now, in regards to HOW baptism can be carried out, it doesn't matter. How it was DONE was most likely by full-immersion, though there is nothing that states one needs to be fully immersed to be baptised, and we know that baptism is not a requirement for salvation.
So, for all intents and purposes of symbolizing the pledge of a good concience toward God, I don't see it a problem for Christian nomads in the desert to baptise new converts by a sprinkle of sand. It's all a matter of symbol, not regulation. This is why people on both "sides" of this issue really are both correct in what they point out. From what I see, the bible seems to not care whether or not you douse someone with a vat of canola oil, or sprinkle them with feathers - when it's a symbol of one's good concience towards God. But even so, people don't need symbols for salvation. They need the real deal.
I just wanted to clarify this before continuing any further.
There is a historical precedent if that is what you are looking for, but if you are looking for requirements of exactly how... well... there aren't any. Just precedents.
So, for all intents and purposes of symbolizing the pledge of a good concience toward God, I don't see it a problem for Christian nomads in the desert to baptise new converts by a sprinkle of sand.
It's all a matter of symbol, not regulation. This is why people on both "sides" of this issue really are both correct in what they point out. From what I see, the bible seems to not care whether or not you douse someone with a vat of canola oil, or sprinkle them with feathers - when it's a symbol of one's good concience towards God. But even so, people don't need symbols for salvation. They need the real deal. I just wanted to clarify this before continuing any further.
There is a historical precedent if that is what you are looking for, but if you are looking for requirements of exactly how... well... there aren't any. Just precedents.
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A water baptism is not necessary, it is merely a symbolic gesture. The thief on the cross next to Jesus only had to ask Jesus who was hanging nearby him, and Jesus told him he'd be in heaven that very day.
Read a few chapters of Galatians.. It is Paul's message to a church who keeps adding on "accept Jesus... and this too" onto the salvation requirements. Paul assures us it is faith alone, no rituals.
Read a few chapters of Galatians.. It is Paul's message to a church who keeps adding on "accept Jesus... and this too" onto the salvation requirements. Paul assures us it is faith alone, no rituals.
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thehomeland, be reminded of the rules of this forum, though I thank you for your answer. If you guys wish to discuss this publically, I will be more than happy to move this thread to a discussion forum.
If you guys wish to discuss this publically, I will be more than happy to move this thread to a discussion forum.
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I have already had a long discussion publically on this board of baptism. I will just state this 1 thing. When was Pauls sins washed away?
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
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Can you yourself literally wash away your sin? Does it come off the body like filth? Can you force sin to leave your body? Are you in control of this? Can you remove sin from you?
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No you can not remove your sin from your body yourself. Note the following verses that show without a doubt that it is your faith in the operation of God that you know that when you have been buried with Christ in baptism that you have died with him and are being raised up a new creature with your sins removed because of your obedience to faith.
col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality
and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made
without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the
dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your
flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;
col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality
and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made
without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the
circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him
through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the
dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your
flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;
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baptism here looks to me like a symbol - again.
Faith in the act of baptism or faith in God Son's Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection - which saves you?
Faith in the act of baptism or faith in God Son's Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection - which saves you?
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Baptism is symbolic of Jesus death burial and resurection and we are commanded by the scriptues to be baptized in order to get into christ death. We are to be baptized into water as this is the only substance that is taught in the bible.
Now Josephus I will expond on the last verses I submitted to you. I will try and show you clearly what they are teaching without making this very long.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Notice that when we are baptized that we are buried with Christ. Then notice that when we are raised up out of the water that we are being raised with christ through our faith in the operation of God.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the circumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
When did we die? It was when we were under the water. This is when we died to sin and that our sins were forgiven. You see when we were baptized God quickened us together with Jesus. So you see your are not joined together with christ until you have been baptized.
Here are few more verses that point out being dead with christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Again when did you die with Christ it was at batism.
Then the writter goes on to say.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Do you see what I am trying to point out here. Notice this conditional statement. IF you have been risen with Christ seek those things above. Again this points right back to you being raised up with christ from the watery grave of baptism.
Im sorry but I must continue on.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death ? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death : that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin . 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him : 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord .
I belive these scriptures clearly show what I have been saying all along. You have to be bapiized in order to enter into christ death. No it is not the act of baptism by itself. First theres Grace, because if we did'nt have it we could never become saved. Then we have to have faith, repentence, and we have to confess Jesus as Lord. Then we have to obedience of faith and be baptized in water which puts us into Christ Death. Again, there isnt anything magical about the water, it is our faith in the operation of God thourgh baptism that puts us into Christ.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Heres another verse that shows that baptism puts you into christ.
I have tons more on baptism but I will stop here for now. I hope this answered your above question. I would still like you to answer my question when was Pauls sins washed away in Acts 22:16? You might also find Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 worth reading.
I hope my reply wasnt to long. I have been trying real hard to condense my replies as much as possible. I look forward to your reply.
Thanks, Cougan
Now Josephus I will expond on the last verses I submitted to you. I will try and show you clearly what they are teaching without making this very long.
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Notice that when we are baptized that we are buried with Christ. Then notice that when we are raised up out of the water that we are being raised with christ through our faith in the operation of God.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the circumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
When did we die? It was when we were under the water. This is when we died to sin and that our sins were forgiven. You see when we were baptized God quickened us together with Jesus. So you see your are not joined together with christ until you have been baptized.
Here are few more verses that point out being dead with christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Again when did you die with Christ it was at batism.
Then the writter goes on to say.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Do you see what I am trying to point out here. Notice this conditional statement. IF you have been risen with Christ seek those things above. Again this points right back to you being raised up with christ from the watery grave of baptism.
Im sorry but I must continue on.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death ? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death : that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin . 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him : 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord .
I belive these scriptures clearly show what I have been saying all along. You have to be bapiized in order to enter into christ death. No it is not the act of baptism by itself. First theres Grace, because if we did'nt have it we could never become saved. Then we have to have faith, repentence, and we have to confess Jesus as Lord. Then we have to obedience of faith and be baptized in water which puts us into Christ Death. Again, there isnt anything magical about the water, it is our faith in the operation of God thourgh baptism that puts us into Christ.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Heres another verse that shows that baptism puts you into christ.
I have tons more on baptism but I will stop here for now. I hope this answered your above question. I would still like you to answer my question when was Pauls sins washed away in Acts 22:16? You might also find Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 worth reading.
I hope my reply wasnt to long. I have been trying real hard to condense my replies as much as possible. I look forward to your reply.
Thanks, Cougan
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"Baptism is symbolic of Jesus death burial and resurection and we are commanded by the scriptues to be baptized in order to get into christ death."
This is actually three statements. One of them is incorrect. And I hope to point out why.
1. Baptism is symbolic of Jesus death burial and resurection.
2. We are commanded by the scriptues to be baptized.
3. Baptism in order to get into Christ Death.
The first is correct and has direct word for word scripture. The second is correct and has word for word scripture. The third is unscriptural. It lacks word for word scripture, and its inference is unsupported as a command with purpose. It relies on the assumption that the purpose of baptism is to somehow get into Christ's Death.
The purpose of baptism is not to get someone into Christ's Death. There is no direct word for word scripture that answers this. Ooh, but it can certainly be answered in several paragraphs of multiple scriptures and interpretations, but that's all one has.
I submit that plain and simple logic can resolve this:
One must first BELIEVE in CHRIST'S DEATH before being baptized. Not the other way around. Hence, the purpose of Baptism is to CONFIRM what was already BELIEVED. For it was Jesus who simply stated "He who believes in me shall be saved."
We accept Christ first, THEN we are baptized. This baptism is in obedience - the first act of obedience of someone who has already made Jesus their Lord.
The emphasis is, they've already made Jesus their Savior and Lord before they are even dunked. Otherwise, they wouldn't be obedient. Only a "child" can be obedient to their "parent". A disobedient child is still a child of that parent! You become a child when you are adopted by faith. You don't become adopted by baptism, because if this were the case, then all "children" baptized are still the child of the Devil, hence they are not saved, even if they are baptized.
This is simple logic.
If my Father is still the Devil, then I am still his child when I am baptized. Adoption does not occur though until I am "choosen for adoption" - a decision I don't make initially, but someone else does! Any adopted child is first choosen for adoption by their prospective parents. The next step is the child's responsibility: to choose whether or not to "accept" the new parents. Once that child accepts their adoptive parents, they are immediately called a family, even though the child himself has done nothing yet to prove that he is now their child. This decion in the child's heart only is proven when the child does his first obedient act to them - thus proving to everyone what has already occured: the adoption, ie. the acceptance of the parents of the child, and the acceptance of the child of the parents.
Does this shine some light on it?
This is actually three statements. One of them is incorrect. And I hope to point out why.
1. Baptism is symbolic of Jesus death burial and resurection.
2. We are commanded by the scriptues to be baptized.
3. Baptism in order to get into Christ Death.
The first is correct and has direct word for word scripture. The second is correct and has word for word scripture. The third is unscriptural. It lacks word for word scripture, and its inference is unsupported as a command with purpose. It relies on the assumption that the purpose of baptism is to somehow get into Christ's Death.
The purpose of baptism is not to get someone into Christ's Death. There is no direct word for word scripture that answers this. Ooh, but it can certainly be answered in several paragraphs of multiple scriptures and interpretations, but that's all one has.
I submit that plain and simple logic can resolve this:
One must first BELIEVE in CHRIST'S DEATH before being baptized. Not the other way around. Hence, the purpose of Baptism is to CONFIRM what was already BELIEVED. For it was Jesus who simply stated "He who believes in me shall be saved."
We accept Christ first, THEN we are baptized. This baptism is in obedience - the first act of obedience of someone who has already made Jesus their Lord.
The emphasis is, they've already made Jesus their Savior and Lord before they are even dunked. Otherwise, they wouldn't be obedient. Only a "child" can be obedient to their "parent". A disobedient child is still a child of that parent! You become a child when you are adopted by faith. You don't become adopted by baptism, because if this were the case, then all "children" baptized are still the child of the Devil, hence they are not saved, even if they are baptized.
This is simple logic.
If my Father is still the Devil, then I am still his child when I am baptized. Adoption does not occur though until I am "choosen for adoption" - a decision I don't make initially, but someone else does! Any adopted child is first choosen for adoption by their prospective parents. The next step is the child's responsibility: to choose whether or not to "accept" the new parents. Once that child accepts their adoptive parents, they are immediately called a family, even though the child himself has done nothing yet to prove that he is now their child. This decion in the child's heart only is proven when the child does his first obedient act to them - thus proving to everyone what has already occured: the adoption, ie. the acceptance of the parents of the child, and the acceptance of the child of the parents.
Does this shine some light on it?
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Josephus I really do like this board you put togther. Did you design it? I have greatly enjoyed many discussion on this site. If anything this site is a great place to get you to study more and test your views. I just wanted to say that before I got back into this baptism dicussion.
Josephus did you read my above post at all. Based on your response you did not. I understand your anology well but some of what you have stated differs from what I stated in my last post.
You are stateing that there isnt a word for word verse that says that baptism puts you into christ death. You must of blinked your eyes or completely missed the verse thats in my last post.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death ?
Is the verse not word for word stating that when we are baptized that we are baptized into his death?
Where in our discussion did I lead you to believe that you could be saved by baptism without beleif? I still really wondering if you read my above post. Notice this small section from above post.
I am just a little bit confused on how based your reply off of my last post. I do not believe in infant baptism because an infant cant have faith in God nor can the confess God. Young childern that dont understand right from wrong cant come to the conclusion that they are sinners and that they need to repent. You see it takes Faith obedience action. Just one example When Joshua went to Jerico they had faith that God had given them there land and that if they marched around those walls and on the last day and then shouted the wall would come down. They could not just merely belive it they had to have obedience followed by action. The wall would of never fell if they just beleived. They had obedience of faith and marched around those walls and shouted on the last day and they came down.
We have the same thing in our discussion. Yes we can beleive in Jesus and accept him as our savior but if we do not confess him we are lost.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Heres an example of someone doing this.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise
of God.
If we dont repent we are lost.
Acts17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
This should be first but we also are not saved if we do not have faith.
HEB 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And yes we can not be saved without baptism.
We are saved by baptism 1Pet 3:21, It is when are sins are washed away Act 22:16 and its when God adds us to the church 1Cort 12:13.
So you see Josephus the first thing we do when when we hear the good news of Jesus we decide wheather or not we will belive it or not. If we do we have faith in Jesus. We cant stop here because even the devils beleive in God James 2:19. After we believe we do just like they did at the day of pentacost and ask what must I do to be saved?(acts 2:37-38) You see now that we have faith we want to be obedient and take action on what it is that we are suppose to do. We see that we are to repent,confess, and be baptised then live a righteous life until death.
Faith alone just doesn't work. It is obedience of faith that saves. Heb 4:8-9; Rom 1:5; Rom 6:17
Im sorry I did'nt mean to make this so long. Please Josephus answer the following questions.
1. When was Pauls sins going to be washed away in Acts 22:16?
2. The following verse says: Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Then we find out that this one body is christ which is the church.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
We also find out that Jesus is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
We also learn that there is only one baptism and that is how we are added to the church which is the one body.
1cort 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
So finally the question. Based off what I just presented can you say with out a doubt that you can be added to the one body which is the church by faith alone without baptism?
Now Josephus I hope that you can see the simpicity in what I have presented. I have tried to make it very easy to understand. Now I hope that you will take an honest look at what I have presented. Again, I thank you for the discussion.
Cougan
Josephus did you read my above post at all. Based on your response you did not. I understand your anology well but some of what you have stated differs from what I stated in my last post.
You are stateing that there isnt a word for word verse that says that baptism puts you into christ death. You must of blinked your eyes or completely missed the verse thats in my last post.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death ?
Is the verse not word for word stating that when we are baptized that we are baptized into his death?
Where in our discussion did I lead you to believe that you could be saved by baptism without beleif? I still really wondering if you read my above post. Notice this small section from above post.
I am just a little bit confused on how based your reply off of my last post. I do not believe in infant baptism because an infant cant have faith in God nor can the confess God. Young childern that dont understand right from wrong cant come to the conclusion that they are sinners and that they need to repent. You see it takes Faith obedience action. Just one example When Joshua went to Jerico they had faith that God had given them there land and that if they marched around those walls and on the last day and then shouted the wall would come down. They could not just merely belive it they had to have obedience followed by action. The wall would of never fell if they just beleived. They had obedience of faith and marched around those walls and shouted on the last day and they came down.
We have the same thing in our discussion. Yes we can beleive in Jesus and accept him as our savior but if we do not confess him we are lost.
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Heres an example of someone doing this.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise
of God.
If we dont repent we are lost.
Acts17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
This should be first but we also are not saved if we do not have faith.
HEB 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And yes we can not be saved without baptism.
We are saved by baptism 1Pet 3:21, It is when are sins are washed away Act 22:16 and its when God adds us to the church 1Cort 12:13.
So you see Josephus the first thing we do when when we hear the good news of Jesus we decide wheather or not we will belive it or not. If we do we have faith in Jesus. We cant stop here because even the devils beleive in God James 2:19. After we believe we do just like they did at the day of pentacost and ask what must I do to be saved?(acts 2:37-38) You see now that we have faith we want to be obedient and take action on what it is that we are suppose to do. We see that we are to repent,confess, and be baptised then live a righteous life until death.
Faith alone just doesn't work. It is obedience of faith that saves. Heb 4:8-9; Rom 1:5; Rom 6:17
Im sorry I did'nt mean to make this so long. Please Josephus answer the following questions.
1. When was Pauls sins going to be washed away in Acts 22:16?
2. The following verse says: Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Then we find out that this one body is christ which is the church.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
We also find out that Jesus is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
We also learn that there is only one baptism and that is how we are added to the church which is the one body.
1cort 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
So finally the question. Based off what I just presented can you say with out a doubt that you can be added to the one body which is the church by faith alone without baptism?
Now Josephus I hope that you can see the simpicity in what I have presented. I have tried to make it very easy to understand. Now I hope that you will take an honest look at what I have presented. Again, I thank you for the discussion.
Cougan
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
The aforementioned passage regarding baptism "baptism now saves you, not the washing of dirt from the body but the (answer of/request for)a clear conscience before God" makes it clear that baptism now saves youand dirt is washed from the body . So then, baptism now saves you, but it is not necessary for salvation. (huh?)
Further, we note that when in Acts believers had received only John's baptism, they were again baptised in water -(in the name of Christ Jesus) - and that by Paul, who then baptised them into the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:4-7)
Moreover, again in the record of Acts, we find that Peter found it necessary to baptise those who had received the Holy Spirit.
It should not be necessary to point out what Paul himself was told when he believed: that it would be necessary to be baptised, and that to wash away his sins. Acts 22:14-16
Further, we note that when in Acts believers had received only John's baptism, they were again baptised in water -(in the name of Christ Jesus) - and that by Paul, who then baptised them into the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:4-7)
Moreover, again in the record of Acts, we find that Peter found it necessary to baptise those who had received the Holy Spirit.
It should not be necessary to point out what Paul himself was told when he believed: that it would be necessary to be baptised, and that to wash away his sins. Acts 22:14-16
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One point at a time please. I hate composing speeches in response to other speeches.
As such, I only read the first point or two and respond to them. I apologize for not reading your entire post.
I asked for a word for word where it says that baptism by water actually puts you into his death. This scripture you quoted is an analogy since Paul no where else in the immediate scriptural area, ever references water baptism, thus we can not be sure if it is baptism in water that baptizes you into his death, or that you just simply are "baptized into his death". In fact, support for this "baptism into" his death, is found in the very next verse:
"your sin nature was buried with him by baptism when he died"
Key words: by, when
As such, I only read the first point or two and respond to them. I apologize for not reading your entire post.
I asked for a word for word where it says that baptism by water actually puts you into his death. This scripture you quoted is an analogy since Paul no where else in the immediate scriptural area, ever references water baptism, thus we can not be sure if it is baptism in water that baptizes you into his death, or that you just simply are "baptized into his death". In fact, support for this "baptism into" his death, is found in the very next verse:
"your sin nature was buried with him by baptism when he died"
Key words: by, when
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Since you have ignored my 2 question above, perhaps you will answer a different question.
If baptism isnt part of salvation then why do it at all?
You say that you dont have to be baptized in order to be saved, therefore baptism is an option under your view. In fact you have even went as far as to say if you are baptized you can be baptized in sand if you want.
Please just one more question. Under your view please be specific how does a person enter into christ death/ being saved?
Since you dont like the post very long I will cover water being the substance that we are suppose to be baptized with after you hopefully answer the new questions from this post.
If baptism isnt part of salvation then why do it at all?
You say that you dont have to be baptized in order to be saved, therefore baptism is an option under your view. In fact you have even went as far as to say if you are baptized you can be baptized in sand if you want.
Please just one more question. Under your view please be specific how does a person enter into christ death/ being saved?
Since you dont like the post very long I will cover water being the substance that we are suppose to be baptized with after you hopefully answer the new questions from this post.
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Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Seeing as how it is that "Baptism into Christ Jesus" is quite clearly stated to be baptism per water, I find it hard to understand how that conclusion could be drawn.
Romans 6:3-6
We are baptised into Christ Jesus.
We are baptised into his death.
We are buried by baptism.
We are raised to a new life.
Henceforth we should not serve sin.
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armothe
Living in HIS kingdom...
It's really that clear?
No literal translation properly expresses all that is implied in this word. The mode of baptism can in no way be determined from the Greek word: baptizeinrendered baptize. It means both:
(1) to dip a thing into an element or liquid, and
(2) to put an element or liquid over or on it.
Nothing therefore as to the mode of baptism can be concluded from the mere word used.
Wouldn't John the Baptist be redundant in saying:
"I baptize you with water for repentance" (Mt 3:11)
How would *you* read that?
"I dip you in water with water for repentance"???
The word baptize was traditionally used in Greek society to signify the dying of garments or the drawing of water by dipping one vessel into another.
-A
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No its not redundant it is merely stateing what substance was being used for the baptism, so you couldnt say that he was baptising with sand or any other substance. I will talk more about the significance of water as soon as Josephus responds to my post.
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