Preterism and the Holy Spirit

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Do preterists believe Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit?

From what I have read, most preterists believe that Christians were given the Holy Spirit only temporarily, only until the time Jesus returned in 70AD, and at that point Christians were filled with Jesus himself, and the Holy Spirit and corresponding gifts of the Holy Spirit were taken away, as they were no longer necessary.

NumberOneSon · Jun 3, 2002

Most preterists I have heard believe we still have the Holy Spirit. Many preterists believe that the charisma gifts were temporary (just like many futurist Christians believe), not the Holy Spirit Himself (although there are preterists that believe the gifts do continue - I have a book on it). Hope that answers your question.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Originally posted by Acts6:5

Most preterists I have heard believe we still have the Holy Spirit.

Many preterists believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was temporary. At preteristarchive homepage:

"Preterist Articles
John Anderson, Lighthouse Productions
Voice of Reason Archives - John's guests include: Gary DeMar, Ron McRay, Tim King, Samuel Frost, Ed Stevens, Don Preston, John Noe, Jerry Wayne Bernard, Tommy Ice, etc.."

This clearly shows Ed Stevens to be one of the top writers for preteristarchives.

Quoting Edward E. Stevens:
"10. Christ Has Returned He is here now to stay He will never leave again. We will live in His presence forever. Jesus the High Priest has returned out of the Holy of Holies (heaven) to manifest the fact that Final Atonement has been made. How many times does Christ need to make atonement and come back out of heaven to proclaim it? The idea of multiple comings just doesnt fit the picture here (Hebrews 9). Now we have a better indwelling than what the transition period saints had. They had the miraculous indwelling and empowering of the Holy Spirit. We have Christ Himself dwelling with us and in us."

http://www.preterist.org/articles-old/doctrinal_implications.htm

armothe · Jun 3, 2002

Just some interesting verses to browse:

John 14:25 I have said these things to you while I am still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.

John 14:15 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in you.

John 15:26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7-11 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because they do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; 

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

I don't claim to be the authority on the Holy Spirit, but it seems safe to say that if the HS existed with the same magnitude it did in the 1st century, we would be seeing a lot of:

accurate prophecy
more inspired books of the Bible
Christians casting out demons
speaking in tongues
miraculous healing
raising people from the dead

I, personally have never been able to do any of the above, nor have I seen somebody do any of the above.

-A

NumberOneSon · Jun 3, 2002

Auntie,

I certainly know who Ed Stevens is, and I am telling you, as a preterist myself, that many if not most preterists believe that the Holy Spirit is here for us today. I don't care if Ed is a "top writer". I don't care if he was the founder of preterism itself; I am telling you, as a preterist, what many of us actually believe, not what you think or hope we believe. Ed has written on the subject of the rapture recently, and a great many preterists have disagreed with his findings, and have written whole articles to refute him.

Ed Stevens is not the Pope of Preterism; He is not the Apostolic Head of Preterism, and his beliefs are not law to us. Some Preterists believe that we do not have the Holy Spirit like the First Century Saints did, and some preterists do. Your question was "Do preterists believe Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit?", and my answer was "Yes", most/many do. I did not say that all preterists believe Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit. Many believe it, many don't. I even gave you an example of a book written by preterists who are charismatics. So please, don't try to tell me what preterists like myself believe or don't believe. You asked the question, and I gave you the answer.

Benny Hinn is a top "futurist" writer; does that mean every Christian believes the way he does, simply because he is a "top writer" or a "top leader"?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Originally posted by Acts6:5

I am telling you, as a preterist, what many of us actually believe, not what you think or hope we believe.

I don't even know how to respond to that sentence. I am trying to learn what preterists believe, what preterist teachers teach. You disagree with Stevens, but many preterists agree with him. This has NOTHING to do with my so called hopes

or what I think, but everything to do with the teachings of preterism. If Stevens is so far removed from the teachings of preterism, then why in the world are his teachings represented at preteristarchives.

So please, don't try to tell me what preterists like myself believe or don't believe.

I thought I could talk to you, Acts, but obviously I can't. I posted the views of a preterist at preteristarchive, and you get all defensive and accusatory. I am not wanting the personal views of each and every individual preterist at this board. I am interested in preterist views about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--some say yes, some say no, why or why not, and what scriptures back up each view.

You could have posted quotes from other preterists that refute the views of Stevens, but why would you bother to do that, when it is easier to just attack me.

Just forget it. I refuse to get into another biting session.

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Thank you, armothe, for a very civil reply. And what you have said is exactly why we must each study the scriptures, especially when we profess to believe that ALL scripture has been fullfilled, because that belief causes one to reread everything with new eyes, and new interpretation. You must reconsider everything.

Thanks.

armothe · Jun 3, 2002

As mentioned, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

I believe God speaks to us through His Word. I believe God answers prayer. I believe we speak to God through prayer.
I tend to believe the HS is a manifestation of God and is somehow still working to this present day.

I really can't comprehend how God exists, but I can only study the Bible and see examples of the HS work through the disciples and Apostles. I do not see similar events (ie ressureccting the dead) happening today.

Just to clarify, my use of John 14:30

I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; 

Was actually in reference to Satan being "unleashed" during the NT period.
My goal was to make a point that the Holy Spirit was to be released to the Disciples and Apostles to combat Satan's missives.

I apologize for neglecting to do so in my previous post and possibly hinting that this verse referred to the HS.

-A

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Originally posted by armothe

Just to clarify, my use of John 14:30

I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; 

Was actually in reference to Satan being "unleashed" during the NT period.
My goal was to make a point that the Holy Spirit was to be released to the Disciples and Apostles to combat Satan's missives.

I apologize for neglecting to do so in my previous post and possibly hinting that this verse referred to the HS.

-A

You did fine, I understood what you meant.

Thanks.

NumberOneSon · Jun 3, 2002

Hi Auntie,

We can have a civil discussion. My first post on this thread reflected that spirit, wouldn't you agree? I didn't think my last post was uncivil (and it wasn't meant to be), so for that I'm sorry. I was trying to be firm but not insensitive.

I told you that some preterists believe and some don't.
But your response to me was "No, Acts...". That to me is not trying to "learn" what what preterists believe, but it is trying to "tell" me what preterists believe. I said that "most" preterists that I have heard do believe the Holy Spirit is with us today, and you immediately took issue with that. Just because Ed Steven's believes differently doesn't make what I said any less true.

Steven's teaches many things I agree with, and a few that I don't. Leaders in preterist circles have disagreements in doctrine just like various futurist leaders have disagreements in doctrine.

Like I said, some believe the Holy Spirit is for today and some don't. You said you were interested in preterist views about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and in my original post I gave you my answer, a very respectuful one. All I'd ask is that in the future you accept my answers rather than immediately disagree them. If you really want to learn what we believe then please listen and accept our answers. Sound fair enough? If so, we'll get along fine.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

"No, Acts", has been deleted.

Originally posted by Acts:

I said that "most" preterists that I have heard do believe the Holy Spirit is with us today, and you immediately took issue with that.

Check the post time. My reply to you came about 4 hours after your post. It was not "immediate". I gave your answer some thought before I replied. I appreciate the fact that your answer reflects the views of many preterists.

My interest is WHY do some preterists not hold your view. How did Stevens--and many other preterists-- come to his conclusions.

You could say "this is what Acts believes, and this is why Acts believes it." And "this is what other preterists believe, and this is why they believe what they believe".

That would give me a more complete picture of preterist views.

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 3, 2002

Auntie Belle Um,

Preterists do disagree on this subject. Yet, non-preterists disagree on this subject as well. Concerning the gifts, some preterists such as Stevens use the passage in I Corinthians 13 to say the gifts have passed away.

"...but if there are gifts of prophesy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease: if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. (I Cor 13 8-10)"

Stevens considers that the perfect did come at the Parousia at AD 70. Therefore, these gifts are no more. Incidentally, many evangelicals use this passage for the same reason. Only they say the perfect is the completed cannon of scripture.

John Noe who is a good friend of Stevens thinks otherwise. He believes that the gifts came into maturity at the Parousia. He has written a paper called "Why we may soon see a return to first century caliber miracles." (That is not the exact title, but it is close.) In this paper Noe says that as the church returns to first century teachings, we will see first century miracles.

Because of my somewhat charismatic background, I lean towards Noe. I have seen many miracles in my years with the Lord. Yet, I am still seeking the Lord on the matter. If He has a higher understanding, I am all for it.

By the way Auntie, you do seem to be becoming more civil about things. If you are seeking to understand preterism before you judge it, you are wise.

armothe · Jun 3, 2002

I'm not sure if there is an official "preterist" handbook which lists what preterists have to believe to be a preterist.

The one thing all preterists believe is that Christ's 2nd coming happened in the 1st century.

Other doctrine, issues, questions surrounding and relating to that event differ between preterists.

Preterism does cause one to rethink a lot of the doctrine surrounding Christianity and the NT.

Some preterists believe the Lord's Supper is still necessary, some do not. Some believe water baptism is essential to Christianity, some do not. Some believe the Holy Spirit is as strong as ever today, some do not.

It all varies by individual.

-A

jenlu · Jun 3, 2002

Thats why I'm not a preterist, I just can't see(read as understand) the 2nd Coming of Christ in those scripture's as being past...There was definitely a "Coming of the Lord" described in scripture that has passed, but I don't see the scripture's on Resurrection Day/Judgement Day as past to us...there is a difference in my opinion(at least thus far) in the discussion of either one(the "coming" in 70 AD and the 2nd coming) in the Bible...

armothe · Jun 3, 2002

Originally posted by jenlu
I just can't see(read as understand) the 2nd Coming of Christ in those scripture's as being past

It wasn't a past event. When it was written, it was a future event. It is *now* a past event.

-A

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Ozark,

I'll study your words before replying, except I do wish to respond to this now:

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist

If you are seeking to understand preterism before you judge it, you are wise.

I am seeking to discover ALL that preterism ENCOMPASSES. The doctrine that all prophecy was fullfilled in 70AD should cause ALL believers to ask the question "How does this belief affect preterist views on ALL DOCTRINE", not just eschatology doctrine.

If you choose to believe ALL has been fullfilled, then you must be willing to examine every area of your beliefs.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not considering a belief in preterism. If anything, I am stating that all preterists should examine their beliefs in it's entirety. You know your eschatology views, now discover how those views affect your other doctrinal concepts.

(when I say "you", I don't mean you personally, but all preterists.)

NumberOneSon · Jun 3, 2002

Hi Auntie,

I'm glad we have gotten over that little bump (it was quite unintentional).

Check the post time. My reply to you came about 4 hours after your post. It was not "immediate". I gave your answer some thought before I replied. I appreciate the fact that your answer reflects the views of many preterists.

I meant "immediate" as far as your very next post, not the exact timing of it

. I am glad that you did give my posts some thought before posting; I try to do you the same courtesy. And whenever you ask why I've come to a conclusion about a certain belief I'll try to give you the scriptural support for it. Talk to you soon.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Ozarkpreterist · Jun 3, 2002

Auntie,

You are correct. The implications of preterism for the church are astounding. I think you will find that we preterists have grappled with the results of a completed eschatology. There is even a step beyond that, and that is to live preterism.

Ultimately eschatology seeks to answer the question of how much of our salvation we can truly experience in our lives. Preterism says most all of it. We have been lifted up into the presence of God (Eph 2:5-6) and His presence abides here in us through Christ Jesus. The Devil has been cast down, and it is time for reigning not just as priests unto our God but as kings as well.

Of all the eschatological views preterism gives the most glory to God in the present, and it is harshest on the Devil.

Jesus gets a whole lot bigger when one embraces fulfilled eschatology. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist

Concerning the gifts, some preterists such as Stevens use the passage in I Corinthians 13 to say the gifts have passed away.

"...but if there are gifts of prophesy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease: if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. (I Cor 13 8-10)"

Stevens considers that the perfect did come at the Parousia at AD 70. Therefore, these gifts are no more.

Thank you Ozark. If I were a preterist, according to the verse you quoted above, I would have to agree with Stevens. I don't see/understand how someone could disagree with the scripture you quoted.

But also, Stevens seems to believe that, along with the "doing away with" the gifts, was also a replacement indwelling...that is, the indwelling of Jesus replaced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Am I reading Stevens correctly? :scratch:

I have seen many miracles in my years with the Lord. Yet, I am still seeking the Lord on the matter. If He has a higher understanding, I am all for it.

Yes, it is impossible for me to believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been done away with. I recieved a miraculous healing of my body, from the Holy Spirit. I don't know why God healed me, but He did. And I praise His Name and love Him dearly for His mercy on me, a sinner. :bow:

That was a few years ago, but thinking about it just now, I come close to tears as I recall my illness and God's tender mercy upon me. I was healed instantly and totally. I am so overwhelmed with God's great love and mercy. :bow:

Auntie · Jun 3, 2002

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist

You are correct. The implications of preterism for the church are astounding.

Absolutely astounding. And that is the heart of my interest in preterism. I believe, ultimately, preterism will effect the church in much the same way as Martin Luther. I don't see how preterism cannot effect the church in a major way. Time will tell, but that is my opinion.

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