Tribulation

These are the tribulation saints. They are the ones that refused to open Gods free gift. They missed the rapture, then paid the price with there own blood. I believe that these are the 5 virgins who didn't make themselves ready, and therefore missed the Wedding Feast. They also miss the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ, when Christ judges the churches works by fire. And because they weren't ready- the Beast was given power to over come them. They will still be saved, but like one who goes through the fire, or (by the skin of there teeth).

Notice also, that God tells them to wait a little longer, until their number was complete. They are the last ones home, and it's a matter of survival after that. Everyone that is fortunate enough to survive will be separated into two groups (sheeps and goats). Goats will go to judgment, while the sheep will re-populate the earth (mortal bodies) in the Millenium..rollinTHUNDER

Hi rollinTHUNDER >>> Happy New Year
I was actually ad-libbing from a psalm. I guess I was trying to make the point that He can keep us from the Tribulation even in the midst of it. What a wonderful oppurtunity for Him to show His power & glory in the earth!
I use King James >>> Always have. Like you said the other translations are watered down; and with the Spirit giving revelation of a verse; the closest to original, the better.
I just know in my heart that we will not be raptured out of this. In fact, I believe the beginning of sorrows has begun. I will study a little and come up with some scriptures to back me up.
Peace

GOD ALWAYS REMOVED HIS FAITHFUL ONES BEFORE HE SHOWED HIS WRATH KEEP LOOKING UP ;]

Hi all,
consider these two scriptures:

Rev 19:11-15 which speaks of the Rider on the White Horse (our Lord Jesus).
verse 14 says:"And the armies in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."...I believe the reference here is to saints who have been washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb, that is why the mention of them being Clothed in fine linen, White and Clean.
- If the Armies of Heaven are the saints indeed, then this is a totally different picture than the one found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

In 1 Thessalonians we are caught up to meet our Lord who descend from Heaven and comes not a cloud level hight.

In Revelations 19, The Armies of Heaven are following him and He is pictured as riding the White Horse and instead of a shout which raises the dead and calls those who are alive to meet Him, a Sword proceeds from His mout smiting the Nations and coming with the 'fiercess of the Wrath of God'.

The point is in one scripture we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and in the latter (Post Tribulation) He comes riding upon the White Horse with US, His redeemed saints following HIM. Thus it would seemed that at some point we would have had to had been with Him, in order to follow him.

instead of: In 1 Thessalonians we are caught up to meet our Lord who descend from Heaven and comes not a cloud level hight.

I meant: In 1 Thessalonians we are caught up to meet our Lord who descend from Heaven and comes TO a cloud level hight.

I am not sure of this answer either, and do not have a certain "feeling" about it. However, I do wonder if people will be saved during the tribulation? I really hope so. I mean, I realize that many will acknowledge Christ, and be changed. But do they go to Heaven? So confused........

Hello MarkS,
I think you hit the nail right on the head.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 - Is the rapture of the Church- this is how they will be kept from the hour of trial that is going to come against the whole world(Rev.3:10). For someone to believe that they would go thru the tribulation (while being Devinely protected), they would also have to believe that they are part of the 144,000. The 144,000 will be protected, but the saints in the tribulation will be overcome. Rev.17:6-" I saw the women was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore the testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished." >>> Some protection this would be, no thanks, you can keep your protection. The people that believe this have no hope, because they give it away.

Rev.19:14 - "The Armies of Heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean." This is non other than the Bride that made Herself ready. The Church was promised that she would rule and reign with Christ. Rev.2:26 - "To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations." We will be like Him, our bodies will then be uncorruptible, immortal, and able to go through walls and bullets...>>>>>>>rollinTHUNDER

Hello rolling thunder,

Are you saying that they, tribulation saints, bought their way to heaven with their own blood? Is the blood of Jesus not enough to wash away their sins then?

Cheers,

YM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER:
These are the tribulation saints. They are the ones that refused to open Gods free gift. They missed the rapture, then paid the price with there own blood. I believe that
(etc.....)
rollinTHUNDER </font>

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Hello Yaumimg,
The way I worded that could very easily be taken that way, so let me try it another way.
No - I don't mean that one can buy a place in Heaven with his own blood. They will still have to believe that Jesus died for their sins, and profess Him as their Lord and Savior. They will also have to refuse the Mark of the Beast, and if they do, then they would pay the price with their own blood. So the blood will not buy their way into heaven, but it will be the punishment for refusing the Mark. In other words, they should have trusted Jesus when the grace of God was free. It's not free if you have to give up your mortal life.>>>>>>>rollinTHUNDER

Hello Yauming,
You are right. The way I worded that could easily be misunderstood. Thanks for catching that. No - I don't mean that someone can buy their way into Heaven, not for any price. Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by Me."

They will still have to believe and profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But they should have accepted Gods Grace when it was free. Now they will have to refuse the Mark of the Beast, and this will cost them their lives. So in other words, Salvation will no longer be a free gift.>>>>>>>rollinTHUNDER

This is only my second post. I was remiss in not saying in the first what a great forum, and bunch of folks, you have here. It'll take a while, but I'm catching up with what's going on.

Now, my obversation is this: The varying points-of-view regarding this subject are all apparently supported and substianted by chapter and verse(s). It becomes a sort of "Biblical Tic-Tac-Toe." Initially, it can all be fun, and indeed a learning experience, but after a while, and when all parties are experienced players, there can never be a "winner."

It's impressive that the most important thing I've noticed is that no one seems to WANT to be the "winner." That is so refreshing.

So, instead of discussing the pre- vs mid- vs post-tribulation events, begin at the beginning. I.E., is the tribulation a literal seven-year period of time to take place in the future? Study, very carefully, your reasons, the context of the passages, who was speaking and to whom, and so forth. It is indeed possible you may reach a new, and different, understanding, one which erases the need for a discussion of matters which, by the admission of so many people here, are not actually all that relevant to the Christian faith and life.

Just something to think about. Thanks, y'all.

Hello jbenjesus,
This thread may help you some, especially pages 2 and 3.

Is there any scripture that indicates Christ is "RETURNING" a 3rd time in order to reign a thousand years? If we believe in a 2nd coming just for the rature alone, then there must be a 3rd coming when He begins to reign for 1,000 yrs.

1 Thess. 3:13- "To the end He may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints."

Reading the next chapter of Thess. shows no distinction between the rapture & His coming with His saints, as if it's all one event. I see no evidence of a separate 3rd coming. Also, by reading the last 3 chapters of Rev. it appears as though,Satan is bound 1000 yrs, the first ressurection of the dead ( & our rapture biblically follows), New heaven &new earth, 1000 yr reign,Satan is loosed, then the 7 vials of God's wrath, then judgement day.

Hello Debbie,
I see know one answered your question, so I'll take a stab at it.
Jesus already came to this earth once, to die for the sins of the world. He will be coming to gather His Church, and this is what we call the rapture. BUT- He will not come to the earth for the rapture. We will meet Him in the air, in the clouds. He won't be coming down, but we will be going up (1 Thes. 4:16-17). He will come to the earth a second time though. This second coming will put an end to the seven year tribulation, and will usher in His new Millenial Kingdom that will last a thousand years. I hope this helps you.

Well yeah it helps to know that His "I come like a thief in the night" is not referring to His second coming. Thanks.

>>>>>>Rollin' back to the top>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

are these three different things??


1. The great tribulation

2. The great and terrible day of the lord

3. The great judgment of the living and the dead.

Aren’t these three different things???

It seems that man (through anti Christ) causes tribulation and martyrs the church

Then Jesus raises the dead in Christ before he catches the church up into the air were he is waiting to attack earth.

Then returns with 10,000 of those saints to bring the great and terrible day of the lord on the earth as he makes war with the kings of the earth at his.

After a thousand year reign of Jesus rule after Armageddon there will be the final judgment.

I see these things as three different things???

Is that wrong????


Celtic.

If by tribulation, you mean a pouring out of God's wrath. Then that would have to take place after the Saints of God are taken out of here. The Spirit of truth and grace abides in us. So in order for God to pour out His wrath upon the world, His grace and thus His true Church would have to be removed.

The tribulation can not begin, untill the Church age, or the Age of Grace has come to an end. This is a time when God will restore His covenant with Isreal, and they once again will become a witness and a testimony for God. The Bible says that at that time one third of the nation of Isreal will be saved.

In a way we are already being raptured. Because the Holy Spirit of God is doing a work in us to prepare us to go up to be with Jesus when He comes for us (His Bride). The Bible is clear that He is coming for a church that is without spot, blemish or wrinkle. Because the Holy Spirit and the Blood of Jesus is cleansing us of all sin. We know that the resurrection power of God is already doing a work of redemption in our lives. Thanks, JohnR7

Regarding some of the many points mentioned in this thread:


> ...those left behind...

Regarding "one taken, one left," note that Matthew 24:37-44 refers to the same "coming of the Son of man" as Matthew 24:29-31. There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

I believe the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noah’s flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40). The carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millenium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millenium.

The ones "gathered together" at Christ's 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."


> ...can also turn back to God, and be saved...

While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."


> ...We were warned to watch...

Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41). Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.


> ...because He would come when we thought not...

I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for, again, Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise you're saying that as long as we're looking for him he can't possibly come.


> ...he never gave a clue as to when He was coming
> for his Bride...

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse eight). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.


> ...Only His Father knows...

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

Here I believe Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30), that is, his 2nd coming. I don't believe he taught a 3rd coming.

Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense).

Note the exact correlation of the phrase "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come shortly before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

Shortly before the 2nd coming, I believe the Lord will likewise through his Spirit reveal to his prophets in the church the day of his coming. I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait only 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).


> ...like a thief in the night...

Note the "if" in the following verse:

"If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).

Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief:

"Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).


> ...God removed Noah from judgment. He then sent His
> destroying Angels to Sodom and Gamorrah, but they had to
> wait until Lot and his family were removed before they were
> permitted to destroy the cities...

Some teach that the church must be spared from the tribulation like Noah and Lot were spared, but the same coming is referred to in Matthew 24:37 that is referred to in Matthew 24:30. There's no 3rd coming of Christ. The Bible says Noah's deliverance was a type of our deliverance through baptism (1 Peter 3:20-21), not rapture, and the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrha was a type of the eternal judgment of hellfire (Jude 7), not a type of the tribulation.

Lot was greatly affected by the judgment on Sodom: he had to leave behind everything he owned; he even lost his wife; and he went to go live in a cave (Genesis 19:30).


> ...What do you make of Rev.3:10 ?...

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

Here Jesus was addressing only the church at Philadelphia. Are all Christians Philadelphians? And does being kept from the tribulation even require a rapture?

I believe some faithful Christians will be kept from the tribulation (Revelation 3:10) by an early death (Isaiah 57:1).

But some faithful Christians will be tried in tribulation unto death (Revelation 2:10-11). They will suffer and die in the war, famine, natural disaster, and persecution of the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), just as faithful Christians have been allowed to suffer and die in these things throughout history (Acts 14:22).

Revelation 3:10's promise of being kept from the trial doesn't apply to those of us in the Church who will still be alive on the earth:

"The hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to TRY them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be TRIED; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery TRIAL which is to TRY you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).


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