Another - Why pray to Saints?

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Reformationist

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
The last passage is quoted to show that those in Heaven are aware of the lives of those on Earth. I have refrained from posting references from Scripture that is deemed apochryphal by Protestants, but it can be posted, too, if you are curious about it. Hope it helped a little!

Neal

Neal, I'm a little confused by your references, as not one of them shows an instance of someone praying to past saints. Additionally, the last two verses you cited were about angels, not saints.

For the record, I do not personally take issue with this practice unless, of course, someone is, in some form, worshipping the saints, which I don't think most Catholics do.

Originally posted by VOW
I haven't found any Scripture saying, "Only living, breathing people can pray for one another.

True as that may be, I am not aware of any scripture that promotes such activity as even beneficial. If you are please share. :)

Originally posted by VOW
The Scripture you quoted is in the Old Testament; the teaching of Jesus in the New Testament is that the dead are alive in Christ.

Why would you make a distinction? Does the Old Testament say something contrary to this?

2 Tim 3:16,17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I realize that it does not say, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, etc in every situation." However, to say that because something is "Old Testament" and then show a "New Testament" scripture that is seemingly contrary because it is more applicable is not very edifying nor is it biblically sound.

Originally posted by bouncer
could God be persuaded by others, to answer our prayers even if he does not want to answer it when we ourselves ask him?

God is immutable. Persuasion is a non issue with Him. He does not ever change His mind from that which was always His Will.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.

Originally posted by VOW
Community prayer encourages us to work together, as a whole, for the betterment of everyone. We do not exist in a vacuum, the Church is a collection of PEOPLE, and we all together form the whole. A single cell in your liver, say, isn't more important than a single cell in your eyeball. BOTH have vital functions to work together for the entire "you." And NEITHER can function alone! Community prayer is a constant reminder that none of us is more important than another.

Secondly, prayer is GOOD for you! By asking others to pray for you, you are actually doing THEM a favor, LOL. Prayer encourages your spiritual growth, so you, as the recipient of the prayer benefits, but so do the people who pray for you.

VOW, this response by you is, in my opinion, the best one offered yet. Well done. :clap:

God bless.
 
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cougan

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I have no problems with someone asking a fellow saint to pray for them. In fact the bible tells us to pray for one another. When it says this it is talking about the saints on the earth that are still alive with their earthly bodies. The saits that have finished their race in life and their soul is in Paradise would have little use for our prayers since they are in a place of comfort. You can't have it one way. If you want to include those saints in Paradise then you would need to pray for them also. Now I ask you be honest why would they need you to pray for them?

Prayer is a very wonderfull thing. I have looked and looked and no where can I find any other way to pray than to the Father in Jesus name. You say that you ask these saints in Paradise to pray for you. How exactly do you ask them without praying to them? I went into a St Mary Catholic Church once on business, and I saw something that I will never forget. I say a statue of what is supose to be Mary with a nealing cusion so that you could neal before this statue and pray. Now I know that you will more and likely disagree with me but that is nothing more than idoletry. People nealing before a man made statue praying. Why do people have to be so carnal and try to bring spiritual things into something they can see, smeel or touch.

Now I want to comment on some of the verses above that were suppose to be offered as example of someone praying to a saint in paradise. Before I even begin I would like to state that none of the above verses even come close to being an example of someone asking a saint in heaven to pray for you.
Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

I took a very indepth look at this scriture and specifically at who are the cloud of witnesses. I must say I enjoyed the study and would also say that in order to figure out who the cloud of witnesses are you must study the context of chapter 11 along with this first part of Heb 12. Everyone knows that Heb 11 is the great faith chapter. This chapters talks about the great faith of these OT people. The OT people mentioned in Heb 11 showed everone around them that the belived in God by the way they conducted themselves.
Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony
through faith, did not receive the promise,

So now in Heb 12:1 we have a comparison between the OT people being faitfull and being examples to the many eyes upon them and to the christians. So that there isnt any confusion let me parphrase HEB 12:1 "Therefore since we also are examples of the faith in God, and we are surrounded by unbelivers that are watching us, let us not be found in sinful acts like the unbleivers but let us endure and run the race that is before us."
If you did'nt catch it the cloud of witnesses were all the unbelivers watching them.
I hope that explained that clearly enough.

Now Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3-4 doesnt even hint at someone on the earth can ask or pray to a saint in Paradise. I really dont see any relevence at all to these verses.

Luke 15:10 doesnt seem to say to me that the saints that are in Paradise no whats going on in the earth. Again I have never found a passage that even comes close to imply this. I will say I have not done an indepth study on this verse but it seems to me that this verse is being compared to the lost sheep and the lost ring. You see in these parables it is the master or owner of the sheep or the ring that seeks the lost one. When the lost one is found then the owner or master is very happy and then he calls up his friends so they can rejoice to. So it seems when someone is went astray but then repents and come back to God then God is very happy so there is great joy in heaven. Now this verse doesnt tell us who is rejoicing but I do know that God would be. Notice it says that there is joy in the presence (before, in the presence of, in front of; in the judgment of) of the angels(KJV). So as far as I can tell from this verse you can not say without a doubt that the saints in paradise know whats going on in the earth. Even if the saints in Paradise somehow were apart of this joy this wouldnt mean that they would know who it was that repented. And futhermore this verse surely doesnt prove that you can pray to or ask for the prayers of the saints in paradise.

Now if you are walking in the light and seeking God with all your heart your prayer will be just effective as other follower of Christ. Nobody is perfect including those saints that have already made it to Paradise. Because we have all sinned and if we say we do not sin we are liars.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the
throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace
to help in time of need.

We that have become christians have become childern of God and we have access to the father through Jesus. Amen
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by cougan
I took a very indepth look at this scriture and specifically at who are the cloud of witnesses. I must say I enjoyed the study and would also say that in order to figure out who the cloud of witnesses are you must study the context of chapter 11 along with this first part of Heb 12. Everyone knows that Heb 11 is the great faith chapter. This chapters talks about the great faith of these OT people. The OT people mentioned in Heb 11 showed everone around them that the belived in God by the way they conducted themselves.
Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony
through faith, did not receive the promise,

So now in Heb 12:1 we have a comparison between the OT people being faitfull and being examples to the many eyes upon them and to the christians. So that there isnt any confusion let me parphrase HEB 12:1 "Therefore since we also are examples of the faith in God, and we are surrounded by unbelivers that are watching us, let us not be found in sinful acts like the unbleivers but let us endure and run the race that is before us."
If you did'nt catch it the cloud of witnesses were all the unbelivers watching them.
I hope that explained that clearly enough.

For those, like myself, who have come to a different interpretation of these passages, let me offer an alternative.

As to chapter 11, although some Old Testament promises were fulfilled, their true hope (the promise of the coming Messiah) was yet to come. The last verses of chapter 11 asserts both the redemptive-historical difference between the Old Testament and New Testament periods, and the unity of the people of God in both eras. Though the Old Testament believers lived by faith (10:38), they were not privileged to witness on earth the fulfillment of the great promise of God. Nevertheless, they too participate in the benefits of Christ's high-priestly work, and, along with new covenant saints, they are "made perfect." Those of the old and new eras together await the perfection that will appear only at the Second Coming (12:26; 13:14; Rom. 8:18; Eph 1:9, 10).

As to the cloud of witnesses, I contend that Christians are in effect running a race before a great cloud of people who have already finished the race with honors. Their example encourages the us, as well as admonishes us if we should stumble.

Lastly, it is important to remember that, while the cloud of Old Testament witnesses inspires us, our principal encouragement is found in the person and work of Christ, who has gone before us as the "author and finisher of our faith," and is the supreme example of faith in the race (v.3).

God bless.
 
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isshinwhat

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It's 2:30 and I just finished moving my girlfriend out of her apartment...I am worn out.

I posted those references (save for the last one) to make it easier for Souljah to reference some of passages quoted by Jason, whom I quoted. The context with which I desired them to be presented was explained wonderfully by Jason, including an address of the view that the cloud of witnesses is no more than a group of examples to follow, though they are that, too.

The passages from Revelations speak of "the prayers of the saints." Who these saints are, I will give you, is up to debate. Is it the prayers of the saints on earth that are being presented to God at the hand of the angel, or is it those in Heaven? If it is those in Heaven I ask why can they not present them to God themselves since they are in His direct presence? I personally think they are the prayers of the saints on Earth or both Heaven and Earth, but even if they are only the prayers of the righteous in Heaven, then we still have the people in Heaven praying. The only step missing is their being consciously aware of our struggles.

I left this passage out because it is not a part of the Protestant Canon, but this passage from 2 Maccabees demonstrates that those in Heaven are aware of the plight of their brothers and sisters on Earth and aid them with their prayers:

2 Maccabees 15:12-16
Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias, the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.

Sorry for the old English, but here we have two physically deceased, but very much spiritually alive men of God appearing to Judas Maccabeus in a vision in which he is told by one of them that not only are they are aware of the plight of the People of God, but they are praying for them, though they are not physically with them. This passage really makes Hebrews 12 and Revelations...really any of the Body of Christ discourses come alive for me. I thank God for the Cloud of Witness and their prayers. Praise be to God for Communion through Jesus Christ, for now death, far from conquering the ties that bind, actually makes them stronger!

I realize that some of you do not hold Maccabees to be authoritative, but please start a new thread for that discussion, and respect the fact that it is a full part of the Catholic/Coptic/Orthodox Canon.

God bless you all, and I'll see you again after vacation :cool:

Neal
 
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Julie

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The canonized saints of the Catholic Church are people who lived very holy, very inspirational lives here on earth. Some of them even died for the faith, incredible, tortuous, bloody deaths for Christ. If ANYONE would be in Heaven, they would.
According to whom?
I have never seen THAT plan of salvation in Gods Word?
Is that what you believe is needed to reach Heaven?
Julie :confused:
 
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Wolseley

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Nobody is saying that martyrdom is a blueprint you have to follow to get to heaven, Julie.

But for those who have suffered and died for their Faith, refusing to deny God or Christ even when they were tortured literally to death, where do you think they would end up?

Somehow, I doubt that Jesus would tell them, "I know you lived your life trying to do My will, denying yourself, taking up your Cross daily, and when My enemies tried to make you deny Me, you refused, and they killed you for it.

However, I never said that you had to die exactly that way in the written Bible, so you can't come in here, unfortunately. You'll have to spend eternity in the downtown Newark bus station."
 
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Originally posted by Wolseley
Nobody is saying that martyrdom is a blueprint you have to follow to get to heaven, Julie.

But for those who have suffered and died for their Faith, refusing to deny God or Christ even when they were tortured literally to death, where do you think they would end up?

Somehow, I doubt that Jesus would tell them, "I know you lived your life trying to do My will, denying yourself, taking up your Cross daily, and when My enemies tried to make you deny Me, you refused, and they killed you for it.

However, I never said that you had to die exactly that way in the written Bible, so you can't come in here, unfortunately. You'll have to spend eternity in the downtown Newark bus station."

LOL, too funny. :D
 
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Julie

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Lots of people have, and do die for their "faith" but that does NOT get them into Heaven.






1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
 
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Originally posted by Julie
Lots of people have, and do die for their "faith" but that does NOT get them into Heaven.


True, the 9/11 terrorists died for their faith. Of course, it was a faith in something evil, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant, is that if someone is dedicated enough to our Lord that they would die for Him, then that is a pretty good indication that they "hath the Son in them."
 
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LilyLamb

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I wanted to respond to two things ... first ...

how important is prayer by OTHERS (saints, friends,pastors, family) for us? could God be persuaded by others, to answer our prayers even if he does not want to answer it when we ourselves ask him? am i wrong in not asking others to pray for me.

No, I don't think it's wrong to ask others to pray for us - as it was the example of the disciples to ask the churches to pray for them; they also asked the churches to pray for others - including those in authority.

I Thessalonians 5:25 "Pray for us, my brothers."

James chapter 5:13-17 states that if someone is sick that they should call the elders of the church to pray over him because "the prayer of faith will save the sick person and the Lord will raise him up again".

This passage also says that we should confess our faults to one another and "pray for one another to be cured" ... "the heartfelt prayer of someone upright works very powerfully".

We're told to pray for our the brethren when they stray in I John 5:16-17. "he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother - provided it is not a deadly sin". And in Ephesians 6:18 it tells us to never tire of praying for all God's holy people.

I Timothy 2:1 "I urge then, first of all that petitions, prayers, intercessions and thanksgiving should be offered for everyone..."

It encourages the body of Christ to see prayers answered.

The second thing I wanted to address is Julie's remark ...

I have never seen THAT plan of salvation in Gods Word?

Matthew 10:32-33 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven."

Luke 12:8-9 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses ME before men, him the Son of God ALSO WILL CONFESS before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God."

2 Timothy 2:11-13 "This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, We shall also reign with him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."

Revelations 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

Revelations 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Those that confessed the Lord before men and were martyred BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST (including the disciples) whether thrown to lions, burned at the stake or in today's time - burned in their car with their children (missionaries), or raped and killed by any various means of dismemberment AND did not deny Christ - but most assuredly cried out to Him during their torment - ARE in heaven.

I don't see how you can think otherwise ... but perhaps this one last reference will help ...

Revelation 6:9-11 "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

Did you know that before the Jewish holocaust in Germany and throughout Europe that there was another holocaust ... a group of people who embraced Christianity as a country ... they refused to deny their faith and were slaughtered (by Muslims) and they numbered in the millions ... their holocaust gave Hitler the ideas to do what he did to the Jews. These people died with the name of Christ on their lips.

I believe they number among those poor souls in the reference above.
 
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