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Defender of the Faith 777

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Friend, I was Catholic. I have no misconception.

Catholocism teaches that it is by Christ and works that one is saved. I know that much.

We accept forgiveness through faith. We receieve blessings by works. Works are beautiful, they are the best things we can do. They are merely not good enough to go to heaven. Our works CANNOT have an impact. It's not possible. "If we are saved also by works of the law, then Christ died in vain". That, my friend, is a choice.

I suppose it's a done deal. I do not believe that you are going to hell. But I am sorrowed by your sudden acceptance of fallible beleifs. Mary's rapture, spiritual perfection, and reception of prayer and praise is blasphemy. When the Council of Trent declared "tradition" equal to the Word of God, God had had enough. They were too blind to see the light. So, God had to move. Indulgences, excommunication, and the Inquisition are products of the chruch God left.

As I said, it is your desicion. If faceless names on the internet are trustworthy enough to place your confidence of God in, then, this is another choice that you will make.
 
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isshinwhat

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You can't bribe Him with filthy rags.

But the works of Christians are not filthy rags, for they are united with Christ's perfect work! There is no bribe invovled, only communion with Christ.

To be "truly Christian" you must have faith. Can that faith fail, yes. People are given different measures of faith from which they can grow. I cannot stand it when someone dares to say that someone was never really Christian. How dare anyone ever comment on the state of someone's soul like that? If someone's faith has failed, pray for them, for the seed has been planted and they can pick it up again. The Father allows even those who have squandered their inheritance to come back home and receive it again.

Neal
 
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isshinwhat

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So, God had to move. Indulgences, excommunication, and the Inquisition are products of the chruch God left.

Thank God I came to find the Catholic Faith two years ago. A faith where God is present to me now. One where the faithful are to live out their faith with hope and charity.

May God forgive your words and bless you with Faith, Hope, and Charity in ever increasing abundance.

Neal
 
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Defender of the Faith 777

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May God forgive my words?.?. Tell me, that was such an abundance of sin, greed, and violence (and really, it's more fact than opinion), how do you explain it? If the Catholic faith is the true faith, those words will be scars on my heart. But I know, Biblically, that God led me to truth.
 
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""If we are saved also by works of the law, then Christ died in vain". That, my friend, is a choice."

This is the misconception, IMO. Christ's sacrifice allowed us to have meaning to our works, and without Him, nothing we could do would help us get into heaven.

But to say that I could abuse a baby, rape some woman, kill some guy, and go to heaven, makes no sense, I'm sorry.
 
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VOW

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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 Friend, I was Catholic. I have no misconception.

Catholocism teaches that it is by Christ and works that one is saved. I know that much.

Defender, you better qualify your first statement. Catholicism does NOT teach salvation through works. Salvation is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Period.


Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 We accept forgiveness through faith. We receieve blessings by works. Works are beautiful, they are the best things we can do. They are merely not good enough to go to heaven.

Agreed. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that works gets you to Heaven. LIVING YOUR FAITH, believing in Jesus, that's what does it. Faith puts you on the path to righteousness. Your good works moves you forward on that path. Without faith to put you on the path to begin with, you won't get there on works alone. You also won't get there if you simply sit still. Ya gotta walk the walk as well as talk the talk.


Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 But I am sorrowed by your sudden acceptance of fallible beleifs. Mary's rapture, spiritual perfection, and reception of prayer and praise is blasphemy.

You are NOT QUALIFIED to make that statement.


Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 Indulgences, excommunication, and the Inquisition are products of the chruch God left.

Your knowledge of history is lacking here, as well as your understanding of the Catholic Church's teachings.



I request you stop judging the Catholic faith based on your own misconceptions of the teachings. You may say you DISAGREE with what the Church teaches, but your wholesale condemnation is abhorrent.



Peace,
~VOW
 
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I thought my previous post would have cleared this up, but I suppose not, so let me try again.

To the one who is questioning whether they are saved by faith alone, may the Scriptures offer a resounding YES! And praise God for that. Let me now turn my attension to the parties in action that would have you believe that works are also needed.

You like to take James out of context, and the extent of your error would be the same as someone reading the first few words of John 3:16 and concluding that all people must be saved (for it says, "God so loved the world," but it also says later that only those "who believe in Him" shall be saved). Salvation, whether in part or by whole is not completed through works, just as sure as everyone will not be saved.

James 2:14 clearly defines the context as claiming faith without deeds (which you seem to know very well). However, the second part of the verse asks an important question: "Can this faith save him?" This is where James gives an ever present "NO!" and I would agree with him.

In the first place, like my previous post stated, someone who sins without any regret and yet claims faith in Christ will surely not be found in Heaven. As James states, it is not that kind of faith that saves him. Saving faith is not the faith that has no care for its owner's actions. Saving faith does not have a lack of care for the things of God. Saving faith will desire to please God, therefore producing good works. Yet at the same time, it is not these works that saves a man, but that glorious faith. Otherwise we would have clear reason to boast in our works. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states that we are saved by faith alone so we can boast only in Chirst:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

In the second place, when dealing with the Galatians, Paul makes it clear that faith has saved us, and not observing the law (which would be your "good works"). Paul asks the Galatians a few very important questions in chapter 3:1-5:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing - if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?"

Paul then goes on to give an example of Abraham's faith in believing God that was credited to him as righteousness (go ahead and look up the passage). So I'll ask you these same questions. Is it, in any way, because of your good works you were saved? Does God work miracles among you because of your good works in any part? No! It is only because you have believed what you have heard. Praise be to God!

In the third place, do you understand sin? If God's sacrifice in Christ is not totally sufficient, and you sin even once, you deserve the FULL wrath of God. That terrible sin is committed, and that bad deed is done. How, by doing merely what you are SUPPOSED to do by good works, are you going to make that up? This is the great dilemna: How are sinners, rebelling against a holy God who punishes sin, supposed to enter into a loving relationship with that God? Luther's answer (and mine), is "only by the blood of Christ!" Works are only a sign (and not a means) of Salvation, for like Paul, "when I want to do good, evil is right there with me," (Romans 7:21). And I doubt you claim to be a better and more knowledgable man than Paul.

I really hope that helps you out. Please learn from my experience, that when you start to think that your position before God depends (even in part) on your works, you are only going down the path of condemnation. For your works are largely evil, even after being saved. Praised be the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who was our sacrifice in full!

Once again, I hope that helps,
Nate
 
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eldermike

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God knows His people and they know Him.
JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

If you are saved, your saved forever.

Blessings
 
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Souljah,

If a genuine repentence is felt, then yes, it is possible for a cheater, a liar, a murder, an adulteror, and even worse to still be counted righteous in the blood of Jesus. If that terrifies you, read Matthew 5 and 6 where Jesus says himself that if you get angry you commit murder, and if you look at a woman lustfully, you commit adultry. That is how high the standard is for God. Therefore, one who cheats, lies, murders, and commits adultry is certainly not the exception to Christianity, but is the common. Christ came for sinners, not for the righteous.

Matthew 9:13 - "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[ 9:13 Hosea 6:6] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

If you think Christianity is all about being good in the sight of God, you are horribly mistaken. Christianity is all about glorifying God for what He has done through Christ! On the cross, Christ took the wrath that we deserved in full so that we cannot in any way work our way to Heaven, but instead be caught up in His wondrous grace - that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Soulja, if this still does not make sense to you, I would advise you take a break from the forums and go read Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, or any of the Gospels. Be amazed that Christ would die for the sinful! :)

Let me know if there is anything else I can do for you,
Nate
 
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isshinwhat

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If a genuine repentence is felt, then yes, it is possible for a cheater, a liar, a murder, an adulteror, and even worse to still be counted righteous in the blood of Jesus.

This is the real meat of our differences. OSAS requires no repentance after conversion. It says it is good to do and is a fruit, but that it isn't necessary because all of your sins, past, present, and future are already forgiven the moment you put your faith in Christ. I suppose you will say that a person that isn't remorseful isn't really a Christian, though.

I like the way St. Augustine put it, "The God who created you without your cooperation will not save you without it."

Neal
 
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Originally posted by NRutman
Souljah,

If a genuine repentence is felt, then yes, it is possible for a cheater, a liar, a murder, an adulteror, and even worse to still be counted righteous in the blood of Jesus.

Ok, so it is requiring that you do something, ie feel remorseful and repent...so that is still a "work".
 
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VOW

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To Souljah:

The fact is, the "Once Saved, Always Saved" school of thought can give you a bountiful amount of Scripture to support their reasoning.

On the other hand, the "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" school of thought can ALSO give you a goodly amount of Scripture to support THEIR reasoning.

Here's the deal. You can't play "dueling Scriptures" with this concept. You can't say, "Well, I have more verses than you do, therefore MY way MUST be the right one!"

You can't completely dismiss the contradiction in Scripture, either. Clearly, there are two messages here, and to ignore one in favor of the other is doing a complete disservice to the Word of God.

IF you believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved," how do you accomodate those Scriptures which validate the Once Saved, Not Always Saved teaching? I don't see how you can.

However, WITH the "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" teaching, the other verses USED to support the OSAS teaching can be supportive of the opposing viewpoint.

Try it for yourself. Look up all the Scriptural references touted by the OSAS school. And read them with the OSNAS viewpoint, that Salvation is indeed free, but with our sinful natures, we CAN turn away from God's gift. In the OSNAS teaching, we can turn away, BUT God will ALWAYS welcome us back again.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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If repenting is a work, then so is having faith, and this whole conversation falls apart. :)

What I meant by repenting is not necessarily pining over each sin that you have ever made. I was aware of very little sins in the specific at my conversion, but yet I knew that I was sinful and did not want to be because it was not what God desired of me. Therefore I told God that I was sorry (repented) and began to trust in the blood of His Son. Therefore, I believe that I am saved.

Does that help?
Nate
 
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Originally posted by NRutman
If repenting is a work, then so is having faith, and this whole conversation falls apart. :)


No offense, but it isn't the conversation that falls apart brother, its the Protestant belief. As you pointed out, having "faith" is itself a work.

""Not everyone who says to me, Lord Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven." Matt 7:21"

If you are right, then we are all saved, which is great. But if we are right, only some of us are saved. Which would you rather stake your soul on? Accepting Christ and doing His will, or just accepting Christ, whatever that means, and crossing your fingers?
 
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VOW

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To NR:

Repentance isn't a work. It is merely ACKNOWLEDGING that you have hurt God, and you are sorry for that pain you have caused Him. You ask Him to show you how to live, so that you don't cause him that pain again, because you DEEPLY DESIRE that loving relationship with Him.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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