A pre-Tribulation Rapture: Lengthy

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Disciple 3

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This has been posted before, but I made few modifications. :)

Ok, for starters, in Revelation in the letter to the church in Philadelphia Jesus says, Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my commands I will keep you from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole earth". The letter to the Philadelphia church is the only letter that has no words of condemnation only commendation. This is why scholars know them as the Faithful Church. The "hour of trial" is the tribulation period. If you read verse 8 of the same letter you see this, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". This takes some connect the dots, so bear with me.

Remember, Philadelphia was the only Church with no harsh words directed at them, they are faithful. If you skip ahead to chapter 4 and verse 1 you would read this, Revelation 4:1 “After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show thee the things which must take place after these things”. After this, the definitive statement. Remember, the FAITHFUL CHURCH, was told they had an open door in heaven. So after the voice from inside the door said “Come up here” John saw everything from then on from above the Earth. Implying that he was no longer on Earth, correct? John, St. John or John the Divine, it doesn’t matter, John was the picture of the faithful. The phrase “come up here”, would signify, well, come up here. 95% of the Revelation of St. John is prophecy, so it is safe to say that “come up here” is a picture of the Rapture. Also, the term Rapture is never found in the Bible, but the term “caught up” is. Rapture means, to be caught up, so if St. John was told to come up here he was caught up.

The prophecies about the Rapture are not confined to Revelation or even the New Testament. But for now we will stay in the red words of Jesus. Matthew 24:38-41, “For as they were in the days which were before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not till the flood came and took all away; thus also shall be the coming of the Son of man. Then two shall be in the field, one is taken and one is left; two women grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for ye know not in what hour your Lord comes”. We do not know when the Lord will come, but when he does come there will be two standing side by side, the one will look over and his friend will be gone. By Jesus saying “it will be like in the days of Noah before the flood” he implies there will be peace and happiness. With the Post and Mid-tribulation theory the tribulation starts first, so how could there be peace in the tribulation? The word tribulation is mentioned all throughout scripture and implies just what it says, tribulation. So, once again if there is great peace, and then 1 of 2 is gone, there must be a pre-Tribulation Rapture.

So we have looked at Revelation 1, 3 and 4, and also Matthew 24 and we see that there will be great peace and then there will be disappearances. A pitcher will pitch the ball to the batter, but before the ball reaches the plate the batter is gone, half the crowd is gone, the umpire is gone, and all hell breaks loose. Ok, so in Revelation 3 we see that the faithful have an open door in Heaven that no one can shut. Later in chapter four we see that a voice comes from an open door in Heaven saying, “Come up here”. And in Matthew 24 we see there will be peace and then we (believers) will be gone, so a post-tribulation rapture cannot fit. But this is not all.

Like I have said before, the prophecies of the rapture are not confined to the New Testament. They are all over the Hebrew Scriptures; the clearest one I have found is in Isaiah chapter 11. In Isaiah we will see that the Lord will set his hand and recover the remnant of his people. Isaiah 11:11-12 “And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to acquire the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall lift up a banner to the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth”. Ok, in this verse we see that the Lord God will spread out his hand and recover the remnant of his people. Verse twelve of Isaiah is almost exactly what Revelation says, with the exception of small differences in wording.

Revelation 7:1-8 “And after this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding fast the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having the seal of the living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it had been given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we shall have sealed the bondmen of our God upon their foreheads. And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: out of the tribe of Juda, twelve thousand sealed; out of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Aser, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Nepthalim, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Zabulun, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand sealed”. This is eerily similar to Isaiah 11:11-12. The outcast of Israel and Judah are gathered from the four corners of the earth by the four angels given charge over the elements. The angels will seal the believers on their forehead, I do not think they will convert them with there words. Most likely different preachers and evangelists will play a part in this. In both Isaiah and Revelation the dispersed are gathered from the four corners of the earth. I don’t know if you see it, but I do.

The prophecies of the rapture can even bee seen as early as Genesis. In Genesis we see a man named Enoch, who is “taken away by God” into heaven. Genesis 5:24 “And Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methushelah. And Enoch walked with God after he had begotten Methushelah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him”. We know from Revelation 3:8 that those who are faithful will be spared from the tribulation. Enoch “walked” with God, this implies he was a faithful man. Why would a genealogy mention a simple walk in the park with God and then just say God took him? This is a prophecy about how those who walk with God will be taken away into Heaven, the Rapture. As Revelation says in chapter 3, the faithful will be kept from the hour of trial, Enoch walked with God. He was faithful, I doubt he literally walked side by side with the King of The universe.

In the end times we can all agree that there will be an Anti-Christ. We also agree that there have been many anti-Christ’s. One of the biggest may well have been Hitler, but he was not THE anti-Christ. I say this in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way”. Concerning our gathering to Christ Paul says that that day will not come until he is out of the way. The he the Paul speaks of is the Holy Spirit. We know this because the he spoken of restrains the lawless one, Anti-Christ. So if the HE restraining the lawless one has to be out of the way before the man of evil is revealed there must be something that would force the Holy Spirit out. We know God is all powerful and cannot be forced to do anything, so he would have to choose to take his Spirit out of the world. We also know that believers are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been since that day in the upper room. So if we are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and he must be out of the world before the Anti-Christ can be revealed, then we cannot be here. Also the order in which Paul lists the verses given is key. He says that the Holy Spirit must be removed then the anti-Christ will come and then Jesus will destroy anti-Christ with the breath of his mouth. This account perfectly matches the account given in Revelation 20:7-10, “And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”.

1 Thessalonians 1:10, “For they themselves report concerning us what a welcome we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come”. Paul was perhaps the most inspired person who ever lived, he says that Jesus will deliver us from the wrath to come. If Jesus were to leave us here during the Tribulation he would not be keeping his promise that he constantly made. We will be kept from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole earth. Jesus made a very comforting promise with a comparison to Noah. “For as they were in the days which were before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not till the flood came and took all away; thus also shall be the coming of the Son of man. Then two shall be in the field, one is taken and one is left; two women grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for ye know not in what hour your Lord comes”. I received a comment on this verse that needed clarification. So to kill any confusion I will explain. The comment was made by ps139, he said, “It seems Noah was the one left behind”. I have since clarified this with him via PM. But the point I made to him was that the faithful will be spared the great wrath that will come upon the whole earth. The flood was meant to punish everyone who dwelt on the earth. Noah however found righteousness in God’s eye, as a reward he was spared the flood by a warning. Now although a warning is not a snatching up, it is helping to spare a person. As I have emphasized, Revelation chapter 3 says that those who are faithful will be spared the wrath. The example Jesus gave was that it will be like in the days of Noah. Peace then wrath. We can all agree that Noah was spared the wrath, we will receive the same reward. It is clear.

I have covered the clearest prophecies regarding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I have heard a few of the posters on this board say that God would test us by having us endure the tribulation. I tend to disagree based on the scriptures. I have heard that the prophecies have started to be fulfilled, this cannot be since the tribulation could not have begun. Why? The promises of God must take place and will take place, God promises us that we will be spared like Noah.
 

nyj

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Here is someone else's work for starts:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

What’s the Catholic Position?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
 
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Benedicta00

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Disciple 3 said:
All I know is it is not a new theory. But please, enlighten me. I love history.


Nothing pertaining to the rapture theory is Catholic teaching. God has won and in the end those will be on his right and others will be on the left, which side you want to be on? All one needs to be concerned with is their own end time, it will more than likely come before the end will. If you are in Christ’s friendship you have nothing to fear.

I also believe prophecy has been fulfilled for the most part and believing this, does not contradict Church teaching but the rapture theory does.
 
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Benedicta00

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Christy4Christ said:
Is it forbidden to believe in the rapture by the church?

I’m pretty sure but in the event it isn’t, you can piously believe it but not teach it as sole truth nor can you remain closed to the possibility that you can be wrong.
 
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nyj

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Christy4Christ said:
Is it forbidden to believe in the rapture by the church?
As far as I am aware, no, it is not forbidden, unfortunately. The Church however, through the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (The curial office that deals with orthodoxy (ie: Right Thinking) ), states that it "cannot be taught safely" (DS 3839).
 
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Christy4Christ

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Did you see him teach this as sole truth? I am very proud of him for the work he put into his theory...

This is alot of hard work

I see alot of people coming down pretty hard on the kids here. Maybe we should just try be a little easier on the kids here and perhaps a little more patient?

I am not just saying this because he is my son, I am speaking of all the kids who come here and are obviously on fire for Jesus...
 
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Benedicta00

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Christy, no one is hard on him at all. You have to understand that if we are not clear on what the Church actually teaches we can do more harm than good. Cannon law warns us to be careful when evangelizing the faith in such a public way.

I am aware of his age and I think it is wonderful that he participates and has interest but as a Catholic, it is important that you cite the Church's teaching along with any theory or research to avoid giving false impressions. A non-Catholic lurker or a ill informed Catholic can read this and just get the wrong impression. That is my point.
 
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KC Catholic

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Why would God build an army of believers to "Go forth and preach the Good News" of Christ's ressurecation, to do his will only to yank them out at the last minute??

Read "The Rapture Trap" - By Paul Thigpen.

The Rapture belief is dangerous and we need to focus on doing God's will and Christ's work and not be watching the skies for Christ's return.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Disciple 3 said:
All I know is it is not a new theory. But please, enlighten me. I love history.
Yes, it is a relatively new theory, one that came about with the advent of dispensationalism in the 1800's

It had nver been heard of before that time in all of Christian teaching.


Peace in Him!
 
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Christy4Christ said:
Is it forbidden to believe in the rapture by the church?
Up until about 1830, the possibility of a post-tribulation rapture was not unheard of, but a pre-trib rapture was considered non-biblical because it would result in 3 comings of Christ--------bethlehem, Rapture, start of millenilal reign--------the Bible only speaks of 2 comings of Christ.

More work from others:

The Rapture



Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

But in 1830, a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

While I don't believe that belief in a rapture is forbidden, I do believe that it is unlikely to be a pre-tribulation rapture as described by the 'left behind' series. The subject, while interesting, is, I believe, distracting. Consider these words of Jesus.

Matthew 6:34
"So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.




I simply don't know enough to judge, so I won't.

 
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thereselittleflower

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Here is some information for you:
The doctrine of a secret rapture was first conceived by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren in 1827. Darby, known as the father of dispensationalism, invented the doctrine claiming there were not one, but two "second comings." This teaching was immediately challenged as unbiblical by other members of the Brethren. Samuel P. Tregelles, a noted biblical scholar, rejected Darby's new interpretation as the "height of speculative nonsense." [4] So tenuous was Darby's rapture theory that he had lingering doubts about it as late as 1843,and possibly 1845. [5] Another member of the Plymouth Brethren, B.W. Newton, disputed Darby's new doctrine claiming such a conclusion was only possible if one declared certain passages to be "renounced as not properly ours." Sandeen writes, "this is precisely what Darby was prepared to do. Too traditional to admit that biblical authors might have contradicted each other, and too rational as to admit that the prophetic maze defied penetration, Darby attempted a resolution of his exegetical dilemma by distinguishing between Scripture intended for theChurch and Scripture intended for Israel. . . . Darby's difficulty was solved by assuming that the Gospels were addressed partly to Jews and partly to Christians." [6]

The Dispensational Origins
of Modern Premillennialism

hope this helped some!


Peace in Him!
 
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