We're the damned that were left behind

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

From reading what the Preterists say I keep getting the eerie feeling that Satan wants us to believe that the Second Coming already happened. If the resurrection already took place (John 11:24), and the saints were taken to heaven (John 14:3), then arent we the damned that were left behind?

What assurances does Preterism offer to say this isnt so?

Eugene Shubert

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

That is scary! I wonder what the answer is to that problem?

armothe · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by EugeneS
From reading what the Preterists say I keep getting the eerie feeling that Satan wants us to believe that the Second Coming already happened. If the resurrection already took place (John 11:24), and the saints were taken to heaven (John 14:3), then arent we the damned that were left behind?

What assurances does Preterism offer to say this isnt so?

Eugene Shubert

Preterists believe the "2nd Coming" was a literal, spiritual event. It sealed the fate of the first covenant which was based on physical works, righteousness, and the law; and completed the ushering in of the second covenant.

This second covenant between God and man is entirely spiritual. If you believe God sent his Son to die (and rise) for man's sins, then you are now a part of this second covenant. Did anything physical about you change? Probably not. This second covenant, or Salvation, is spiritual in nature. If you've accepted the gift of salvation, you are currently living in the "new kingdom". God speaks to you through your reading of His word, and you speak back to Him by praying and praise.

Practicing Jewish law, leading a moral life, or doing good works will not effect this covenant you made. The mere fact that you believe in Christ's sacrifice for your sins saves you.

Subsequently, the "non-saints" who were left on earth were not the "damned ones". I don't know where in the Bible it says that.

-A

Chris†opher Paul · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by armothe

Practicing Jewish law, leading a moral life, or doing good works will not effect this covenant you made. The mere fact that you believe in Christ's sacrifice for your sins saves you.
-A

While I agree that accepting Christ's sarifice is neccesary for salvation, I am not sure that is is sufficient.

I think that both accepting and living the life are required. Else, I could just go around killing people with no care in the world.

armothe · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by s0uljah

While I agree that accepting Christ's sarifice is neccesary for salvation, I am not sure that is is sufficient

I would need some scriptural evidence that states salvation, alone, isn't sufficient enough (to get to heaven?).

I think that both accepting and living the life are required. Else, I could just go around killing people with no care in the world.

Click to expand...

You killing someone is a sin. Me cheating on a test is a sin. Not one sin is greater than the other. The fact that Christ's blood covers *all* sin makes it possible for all sinners alike to be sanctified in God's eyes.

If one admits that Christ's blood covers our sins, one has to admit that God no longer "sees" us as sinners. He sees us as being sanctified through Christ's blood. Hence, it really doesn't matter to him who sins worse than who.

It is clear that we are no longer judged based on works. We are judged based upon our acceptance of Christ's blood - alone.
I agree that as those who accepted Christ's sacrifce, we should be eager to live glorifying lives for God.....but we are not judged based upon this.

-A
(I realize I made some bold statements)

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

You folks sure know how to get off topic.

armothe · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by EugeneS
You folks sure know how to get off topic.

I had already addressed your question.

-A

parousia70 · May 31, 2002

Eugene Asked:
From reading what the Preterists say I keep getting the eerie feeling that Satan wants us to believe that the Second Coming already happened. If the resurrection already took place (John 11:24), and the saints were taken to heaven (John 14:3), then arent we the damned that were left behind?

What assurances does Preterism offer to say this isnt so?

First, you'll need to provide scripture to back up your claim that the "damned" are to be left behind.

I manitain scripture testifies the exact opposite.

It is the wicked who are "taken" and the righteous who are "left behind"

Matt 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one (wicked) will be taken (in judgement) and the other (righteous) left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one (wicked) will be taken (in Judgement) and the other (righteous) left.

You see, it is the righteous who are "left behind" on earth and the wicked who are taken away, Just as it was in Noah's day.

parousia70 · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by EugeneS
From reading what the Preterists say I keep getting the eerie feeling that Satan wants us to believe that the Second Coming already happened.

It's my eerie feeling that Satan wants us to believe the 2nd coming has not ocourred, and we do not yet have victory over him.

Why wouldn't a "defeated foe" desire us to believe he is not defeated yet? He absolutely would.

Do you believe Christ was successful in defeating Satan, or has the victory not yet been won?

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by armothe
I had already addressed your question.

You don't even understand my question.

ZoneChaos · May 31, 2002

Preterists believe the "2nd Coming" was a literal, spiritual event.

Two things here.. first, I think the topic was aimed more at the "was" vs "is". Leaving "second coming" in quotes, is it the peterists point of view that this will happen or has already happened..

Second, what is this event, labled "second coming" in this thread?

Do peterists think that it is a spiritual event, asspociated with the "Second Covanent" made with God (though there have actually been several Covanents), or is it an event both spiritual and literal?

It sealed the fate of the first covenant which was based on physical works, righteousness, and the law; and completed the ushering in of the second covenant.

If "the second coming" did this, what event(s) would we call the "first coming"?

I do think that Jesus' hukman birth on earth, His life, and His death and ressurection accomplished what you say above.. how ever, was this the "first or second coming"?

This second covenant between God and man is entirely spiritual. If you believe God sent his Son to die (and rise) for man's sins, then you are now a part of this second covenant.

The Law of the second covanent is spiritual.. but the promise that is the second coming is very real and literal, as stated by you above: "God sent his Son to die (and rise) for man's sins".

Did anything physical about you change?

Niether did anything lhysically change in the forst covanent.. and in either case, the change will occur as depicted in Revelation.

Probably not. This second covenant, or Salvation, is spiritual in nature.

Sur eit is, all salvation, wethe rit is first or second covanent is spiritual in nature.. it is the soul that God is saving after all.

If you've accepted the gift of salvation, you are currently living in the "new kingdom". God speaks to you through your reading of His word, and you speak back to Him by praying and praise.

Practicing Jewish law, leading a moral life, or doing good works will not effect this covenant you made. The mere fact that you believe in Christ's sacrifice for your sins saves you.

Amen!

Subsequently, the "non-saints" who were left on earth were not the "damned ones". I don't know where in the Bible it says that.

I beleive the writer of the post you responded to was referring to thge men and women left behind after the rapture... an event associated with the "second coming".

If this event has happened, then we ar the ones "left behind".

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

First, you'll need to provide scripture to back up your claim that the "damned" are to be left behind.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Fathers house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 14:1-3.

Preterists teach that the Second Coming already happened. They say the resurrection already took place. According to Paul, the living saints were to be caught up together with the resurrected dead saints in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:16-17).

How do we know it didnt happen?

I say again. According to undeniable Preterist interpretation, we must be the damned!

Eugene Shubert

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

Do you believe Christ was successful in defeating Satan, or has the victory not yet been won?

I believe that the victory was won in heaven and that Satan was defeated there. I see this earth as Satans last stronghold.

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.

Eugene Shubert

michelle · May 31, 2002

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT SATAN WAS DEFEATED AT THE CROSS.

parousia70 · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by EugeneS

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Fathers house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 14:1-3.

Preterists teach that the Second Coming already happened. They say the resurrection already took place. According to Paul, the living saints were to be caught up together with the resurrected dead saints in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4:16-17).

How do we know it didnt happen?

I say again. According to undeniable Preterist interpretation, we must be the damned!

Eugene Shubert

First Eugene, I gave you scriptural proof that it is the righteous who are "left behind", and the wicked who are "taken". You did not address the provided scripture at all. Please do.

Second, The resurrection is the "Resurrection of the Dead".
You must die before you can be resurrected.
If John 14:1-3 has not come to pass as you assert, then no one in "where Jesus is" today. No one is with Jesus today if He has not returned.

The 1st century saints were caught up in the air, (greek aer, meaning spiritual realm), and our covenant status was "changed" in the blink of an eye. We will never be seperated from God. Jesus is literally with us today and evermore.

armothe · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by ZoneChaos
Second, what is this event, labled "second coming" in this thread? Do peterists think that it is a spiritual event, asspociated with the "Second Covanent" made with God (though there have actually been several Covanents), or is it an event both spiritual and literal?

God has indeed made several covenants, and perhaps my use of the word is confusing. Prior to Christ, God based his judgement of mankind on righteousness, morality, and the Law (for Jews). When Christ came, the way of judging people now changed. Instead of receiving God's favor by physical works..etc. We now receive God's favor by accepting the sacrifice of Christ. Some may call this a covenant, but there is indeed a change in God's relationship to man from the OT to the NT. The period between Christ's death and his "2nd coming" was the 40 year transition period of ushering out the "old" and bringing in the "new". This was a literal and spiritual event.

If "the second coming" did this, what event(s) would we call the "first coming"?

Christ's first coming was his birth on earth and proclaimation of this "new covenant".

I do think that Jesus' hukman birth on earth, His life, and His death and ressurection accomplished what you say above.. how ever, was this the "first or second coming"?

First.
I do believe his sacrifice on the cross made salvation possible. But I maintain that the 2nd covenant wasn't complete until 70AD. When the symbol of the old covenant (Herod's Temple) was finally destroyed. Which made it impossible for the Jews to adhere to their Law any more.

Niether did anything lhysically change in the forst covanent..

Sure it did. Hebrews were circumcised and man's judgement depended on the way he lived his physical life.

I beleive the writer of the post you responded to was referring to thge men and women left behind after the rapture... an event associated with the "second coming".If this event has happened, then we ar the ones "left behind".

The judgement proclaimed on Christ's 2nd coming was a judgement for those whose judgement were based upon works and righteousness. What does Christ say in John 5:24 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
I encourage you to read the entire passage

-A

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by michelle
THE BIBLE SAYS THAT SATAN WAS DEFEATED AT THE CROSS.

You are right Michelle. God bless you.

Eugene Shubert

EugeneS · May 31, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
First, you'll need to provide scripture to back up your claim that the damned are to be left behind.

I manitain scripture testifies the exact opposite.

It is the wicked who are taken and the righteous who are left behind.

It would be impossible for you to understand my answer because I cant persuade you of the fact that theres a difference between heaven and hell. If you already believe youre in heaven, living in Gods many-roomed house with Jesus, why are you even wasting your time arguing with me?

Eugene Shubert

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