some basic questions

kimber1 said:

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'.

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*Please dont' take this as hostile*

Most people have a "man centered" world view that affects how they percieve the world around them. This bleeds over into the way they read and understand scripture. I think the hardest thing for me, and apprently for the Church in Rome as well (Romans 9) was realizing that God is God, I am not, and God will do what God will do. And as Paul so kindly put it, who I am to answer back to God? Does he not have the right to make me into a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels prepared for eternity with him in Christ?

In Adam, I fell, I sinned, I died, I was cursed, I am guilty. I was born deserving wrath, I lived 20 years like there was no God. My past is evidence enough of total depravity, irresistable grace, and now unconditional election. I did nothing and continue to do nothing to have merited God's grace and favor...as well as to merit a "chance". I dont' deserve a chance, I rebelled in Adam and continue to rebel, what makes me think God owes me anything but wrath and judgment? Nothing...save Christ now.

kimber1 said:

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?

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Calvinists believe election is unconditional. That means there is nothing about the individual (foreseen faith, works, great hair, etc) that leads or compels Him to choose one individual over another. He does so according to the good pleasure of His will. As fallen individuals they are viewed as being condemned already, so in terms of justice there is no compulsion whatsoever to save them. If God were obligated to save anyone (let alone everyone), it would not be grace but justice.

The Calvinist cannot tell you what the reason was God chose one person and not another, but he can tell you what the reason wasn't.

kimber1 said:

okay here's what's tugging at me. with the concept of the elect, where does free will come into play?

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From one of the study helps in my Bible (Reformation Study Bible). While I think that we often depend on the helps too much - I think this one explains pretty clearly. Sorry - don't know who to attribute to as there are multiple contributers (although I can say R.C. Sproul is the general editor). I have taken this pretty much word for word.

Free agency: all humans are free agents in that they make their own decisions, choosing as they please in the light of their conscience, inclinations and thoughts. They are answerable to God and to the rest of humanity for their choices. Glorified saints exercise their will, their choices are the product of human free agency in accordance with their nature. But because of the transformation of their hearts, the choices are good and right - we desire to do what is right.

Free will has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose any at all of the moral options offered in a given situation. Augustine taught that this possibility was lost through the fall. The loss is part of the burden of original sin. After the fall, our natural hearts are not inclined toward God; they are in bondage to sin and cannot be freed from this slaver except by the grace of regeneration.

Only a will that has been set free is able to choose righteousness freely and heartily. A permanent love of righteousness, an inclination of the heart to the way of living that pleases God, is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives.

Romans 6:16-23, John 8:34-36, Galatians 5:1, 13

kimber1 said:

so is this kind of saying that only the elect have freewill?

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As I understand reformed doctrine and free will - because of Adam we are slaves to sin. We are free to make decisions, to make choices. However those decisions are not for God because we are corrupt by nature. Sinners do not choose God, they choose sin.

We do not elect ourselves, God, in His sovereignty, elects some men and women to be believers. The Holy Spirit works in these people to turn their hearts towards God, hence they become regenerate. Without the Holy Spirit changing our heart we have no desire for Christ, without a desire for Him, we would never choose Him.

Does that help???

BTW - if I may suggest a book that is a good overview of reformed theology.

Essential Truths of the Christian Faith by R.C. Sproul
It is written with the layperson in mind. There are ~100 chapters, most 2-3 pages. It covers just about every topic you can imagine - just the basics - but enough to get a good, general idea about reformed beliefs. There's Scriptural references for each topic - it could easily be incorporated into devotional/Bible study time.

edie

kimber1 said:

okay this you're gonna have to explain to me because i still sin everyday.

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What rnmomof7 is saying is that prior to regeneration an individual is not able to do anything truly good. Everything we do, even the most noble civic virtue, is tainted by our sinfulness and thus not inherently pleasing to God. That which is not of faith is sin, and the unregenerate man has no faith. Therefore everything he does is sin in the eyes of God. This is a very difficult concept for us as sinners to grasp, but to a perfectly holy God even an unbeliever's "best works" are not pleasing to Him.

Prior to the Fall, Adam had both the ability to sin and the ability to not sin.

After the Fall, Adam (and thus all men by birth) still had the ability to sin, but no longer had the ability to not sin. In other words he could not not sin.

The regenerate person, indwelt by the Holy Spirit but still battling the corruption of the flesh, has both the ability to sin and the ability to not sin.

Once we are glorified in Heaven, we will no longer have the ability to sin and will retain the ability to not sin. IOW, we can no longer sin!

You can read more about this here, including quotes from Saint Augustine himself.

okay i have to ask what wasn't?

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It wasn't any condition we met or anything he saw in us beforehand.

so is this kind of saying that only the elect have freewill?

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Yes!!

Man is not born with "free will." His will is in slavery to sin (or in "bondage" as Luther termed it). He has the natural ability to choose good (natural ability being defined as simply the ability to choose what one wants) but lacks the moral ability to choose good (his heart is completely disinclined from God and therefore he only wants to choose evil).

God sets our will free from bondage to a sinful heart.

These are great questions, kimber. Keep em coming!

kimber1 said:

okay this you're gonna have to explain to me because i still sin everyday.

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Luther wrote a book call "The bondage of the will"

The point is that once Adam sinned all the children of Adam are born with their will in bondage to sin.


Think of it this way . All of our choices are made on the basis of our preferences.
The unsaved man does not have a preference for God or the things of God.

The man will choose based on unregenerate preferences. Because the choice , no matter how good it looks to us, is a sin to God because it was made based on human standards and was not a work of God in him. So the unregenerate can not help but sin

man, although still a free moral agent, is fallen and sinful.' It is not in his nature to choose that which is spiritually good (to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, for example). Just as God by nature is good and can only choose to do that which is good, fallen, unregenerate man is by nature sinful and can only choose to do that which is sinful. Look at Paul's explanation in Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slave whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?" A slave doesn't choose his master, but the master chooses his slaves. If a man is a slave to sin, he will choose according to his master, his nature. Man is born into this world enslaved to sin because it is our nature as offspring of Adam's race (Rom. 5:12).

That is a excerpt from this simple article

http://www.credenda.org/issues/9-1doctrine101.php


Kim when a man is saved, for the first time he has a real choice to sin or not to sin, he is no longer a slave to the sin and the sin nature.
When we are born again, like Adam before the fall we have the ability not to eat from the tree.
Remember when Adam sinned ? What was his response to that sin? First he tried to cover it so God would not see it , then he hid from God. He did not seek out God to repent and ask forgiveness God had to seek him out .

Then when confronted by God he tried to justify the sin and even blamed God for it.
THAT is an unregenerate man.

A saved man is convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit, it is a weight and burden to him, he seeks out God to confess and repent. He does that because he is no longer a slave to sin.He now belongs to Christ.

On the other hand everything the unsaved man does is sin to God because it is centered in an unsaved heart and carnal desire it is not a work of God in the man it is a work of the flesh

kimber1 said:

okay i have to ask what wasn't?

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I'm pretty sure the answer was contained in the same post

Calvinists believe election is unconditional. That means there is nothing about the individual (foreseen faith, works, great hair, etc) that leads or compels Him to choose one individual over another. He does so according to the good pleasure of His will.

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It is not based on who we were, who we are, or who we will be. It is not based on what we've done, what we are doing, or what we will do. It is soley based on God's will for his creation.

kimber1 said:

i'd just like to thank y'all for answering my questions so nicely i dunno, it seems we actually do have much in common. i get that y'all don't agree with what i believe 100% and that's cool. i firmly believe that we both believe the basics and the little stuff will be sorted out in the end.

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Augustine was a Catholic Theologian and much of the foundation that Luther had was found in Augustine. Calvin was raised as a Catholic and a scholar so much of what he brought came from his roots.

Kim we share the same creed, we have a similar foundation, so it is natural that we would hold a lot in common.

As Calvinists we rest in the sovereignty of God and trust He has every man where he has ordained they be.
A friend once called that the comfort of Calvinism, to know that we are in Gods ordained will no matter what.

Peace my friend

kimber1 said:

okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?

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To be honest, I, too, have a problem that God would somehow condemn someone "just because." This is not what I see in the Bible. What I see is that the Father envisioned from a single lump of fallen humanity a people whom he "sees" to be a particular people of his grace and mercy. This is a brief explaination of "Election." These people were not elected to receive this grace based upon anything they would say or do. In fact, it is in specific disregard for their crimes that the Father elects them.

The rest are left to be judged with a specific eye toward their crimes. This is not a damnation just because, but a damnation for which we all so richly deserve.

It has been my personal observation that people object to the idea of the Father's election, not because they have any real problem with this kind of salvation, but because they fret against the idea that the rest are not saved in the same way. But, this hesitation has as its root that it is somehow unfair to those who are not saved.

But, I ask: How has God done unjustly to a man by not even offering him what he doesn't deserve to begin with? We rebelled against God, collectively and individually. We don't deserve to be saved. What we ought to ask the Lord is: "Why would you view me and my sin and what I did to pervert your image and even want to save me?"



The very idea itself would pervert God's righteousness and sovereignty to say that he cannot have mercy on some and have justice on others.

kimber1 said:

okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins?

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Yes, once the Father has elected to save me and provide for me all the benefits of that election; once the Son has made a penal substitutionary atonement for my sin and become my Surety and Advocate before the Father; once the Holy Spirit has communicated all that God is for me to me, then, no, nothing I will ever do or say will cause me to fall from this grace.

This does not mean that it is not important to confess my sins. Merely the full revelation of God's grace to the elect causes them to freely confess their sins, just as Isaiah, when he saw the glory of the LORD freely confessed his crimes: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips,.... For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."



Understand this: I chose the Lord freely out of love for the Lord. I confessed my sins freely out of disguist for myself. But if I say that I chose the Lord before he chose me or that the Lord chose me because I chose him, then I make a lie of the Scriptures.Faith, belief, confession of sins, are the natural responses to salvation, just as breathing is the first and natural response of an infant newly born. We breathe in and cry out. These things are not the cause of my salvation any more than breathing and crying are the cause of my being born. What mother doesn't instinctively know this and so, even in her own distress listen for that first sound to know that things are well?

kimber1 said:

okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)
*

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The answer to this question is NO! Most Calvinists do not believe in OSAS. Let me explain why.

The 5th point of Calvinism states: "They whom God hath accepted in his beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end., and be eternally saved".

OSAS is a counterfeit of the 5th point of Calvinism, Perseverance of the Saints . It was created by those who wanted to take the Perseverance out of salvation. What was created was an easy believism that teaches that once I am saved I can live however I want because I now have a "GET OUT OF HELL CARD". They say that once someone is "SAVED" that there is nothing that they can do to lose that salvation. I see this no where in scripture. Now before you jump read the rest of the post.

1. I see warnings to the Church that if one doesn't presevere in the faith they can be cut off from the Covenant and salvation. (Rom 11:22).
2. I see admonitions to the NT Covenant people of God that we can come short of the promise of Rest that God gave His people if we are in unbelief (Heb 4:1), and therefore not enter into that rest.
3. I read the warning that Paul gave the Corinthians in chapter 15 that they were "saved" if they continue in his teachings.
4. I read the parable of the wicked steward in Matt 18:23 where the steward was forgiven all of his debt but when he didn't forgive another, his debt was restored and he was cast into prison. This was a servant of the King of the Kingdom and the parable was likened to the Kingdom of Heaven. The last verse says, So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In each of these scriptures the writer is speaking to the Covenant People of God not heathen people. He is telling Christians that if they don't persevere they will not enter into God's rest and be cut off from the Covenant people of God.

OSAS denies and ignores these warnings. It gives people a false sense of security just like the Jews had who were relying on their being descendants of Abraham to make them secure with God. They thought that since they were circumcised and a descendant of Abraham that they were safe with God and Jesus told them that they were of their father the devil (John 8).

Scripture tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, yet we know that it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:12).

We do not know who is ordained to eternal life but God has given us indicators by which we can know that we are one of Christ's.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

This is where our security must come from. If I am a Christian and not doing these things then I have no reason to be secure in my salvation no matter what OSAS tells me. One who is ordained to eternal life in Christ will do these things because it is the Holy Spirit working His fruit through him.

GLJCA

we believe that Yeshua Christ, God's Son, is the Lord and that He was crucified and died. We believe that God raised Him from the dead on the third day, and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Any christian in here believe anything differently?

nb_christseeker said:

we believe that Yeshua Christ, God's Son, is the Lord and that He was crucified and died. We believe that God raised Him from the dead on the third day, and whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

Any christian in here believe anything differently?

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I definitely believe that!! The difference is in what we think is involved in the word "believe"? Do we think that "believe" describes a one time act in which we transfer citizenship from the world to Heaven or does "believe" describe a lifestyle? OSAS defines it as a one time act where a person believes in Christ and is saved and transfers citizenship that can never be taken away but is that biblical?

Our definitions are important.

GLJCA

kimber1 said:

oh hey you're preaching to the choir about the OSAS thing i'm Catholic remember and believe that true 100% etrnal salvation is attainable only upon death.

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I have been in a PCA Presbyterian Church for a few years now. I used to be a Southern Baptist. I learned about the Covenant theology from a friend at work and it changed my life. The reason I am so adamantly against OSAS is because I was deceived by it for about 40 years.

I personally believe that God has ordained some to eternal life from the foundation of the world. We don't know who they are because God has not reveal that to us. I truly believe that I am one of them and my assurance lies in what the Word of God tells me in the scriptures that I shared earlier. Those that God has ordained to eternal life will persevere to the end, and all the rest will fall away and go back to the world.

GLJCA