Definitions? Confused with boundaries

Eccp19 · Oct 10, 2005

I'm trying to write this thread so it doesn't sound like another one of those "how far is too far" threads. I will be dead honest with everyone. My girlfriend and I are deeply in love with Jesus and eachother. Yesterday we pushed our boundaries a little too far and hands (mine) wandered a bit (PG-13) We are both very confused now as to what is right and what is wrong. We are doing a Bible study tonight and are looking for conclusive scripture to lead us. It's so hard when you love a person so incredibly much and you cannot express it to them fully. We express love to one another every day through actions and words (and I know these are what counts) but at the end of the day (not necessarily literally) there is an overwhelming desire to share that feeling and committment in a more physical form.

So what is considered of a sexually immoral nature? (please no opinions, I want words from the divinely written book!) I highly doubt there is a concrete answer because couples differ so much.

Also where does lust and love separate in any physical act? I mean husbands and wives obviously desire the other's body the same as unmarried people, but is this not lust? is it right just because of the committment of marriage? because they truely love one another?

Her and I both really want to follow God's ways but we definitely don't want to hold back because of legalism created by society.

What are you thoughts/arguments/insights?

Leanna · Oct 10, 2005

Like you said, the Book doesn't clearly say. But I can tell you this, each step down the road makes it harder to go back. Lets talk about the woman's body as having a Canada and a Mexico. I'll assume you were talking you went to Canada when you said PG13. Sure that gave a certain closeness and intimacy. It probably got the juices going in both of your Mexicos. Do you think God wants that? Well since you don't want opinions I will move on. Canada will only hold that same feeling for a while, after a bit you will need to go to Mexico also to get that same feeling. Then what? Can you see where this is leading? Sex. Sure, some people CHOOSE to do everything but sexual intercourse...... but man thats a tight line to be dancing on.

Didn't I predict this in the other thread? After a while you have to go further. First, cuddling in bed..... then touching..... man I am trying to warn you. Take it from the older and wiser. If you don't stop this train right now and back up you're going to have a seriously hard time and a lot of regrets.

Eccp19 · Oct 10, 2005

Leanna said:
Like you said, the Book doesn't clearly say. But I can tell you this, each step down the road makes it harder to go back. Lets talk about the woman's body as having a Canada and a Mexico. I'll assume you were talking you went to Canada when you said PG13. Sure that gave a certain closeness and intimacy. It probably got the juices going in both of your Mexicos. Do you think God wants that? Well since you don't want opinions I will move on. Canada will only hold that same feeling for a while, after a bit you will need to go to Mexico also to get that same feeling. Then what? Can you see where this is leading? Sex. Sure, some people CHOOSE to do everything but sexual intercourse...... but man thats a tight line to be dancing on.

Didn't I predict this in the other thread? After a while you have to go further. First, cuddling in bed..... then touching..... man I am trying to warn you. Take it from the older and wiser. If you don't stop this train right now and back up you're going to have a seriously hard time and a lot of regrets.

Tell me why Christians are not supposed to go farther - Why love cannot be shared in these ways (save sex) between two committed people. And what exactly does keeping the marriage bed pure mean?

I'm not trying to argue with anyone or with the Bible or with God, I just want to know what is sinning and what is not sinning.

Leanna · Oct 10, 2005

Well lets talk about common sense. Our body was made by God, wasn't it? He made a brilliant design. He made it so that when a man and woman began touching in certain ways that the fluids would start moving and they would become turned on, that way they could move on to sex because their bodies would be prepared. It seems logical to me that getting your body ready for sex on a regular basis and then telling it no isn't a good idea. Too many false alarms, I've seen it do bad things to future sex lives because then they have a much harder time getting turned on. God designed our bodies to work this way. If you want to push it to the limits, which I can see you do, then no one will stop you and you won't hear anyones logic or strong warnings.

If common sense doesn't work for you, there are some great books on this in Christian bookstores.

Leanna · Oct 10, 2005

Eccp19 said:
I'm not trying to argue with anyone or with the Bible or with God, I just want to know what is sinning and what is not sinning.

Again, The Bible does not address these issues but God did give us brains and we should use them. Sometimes its not a matter of SIN so much as it is what SHOULD we do? I can't say for sure if going to Canada is a sin, but I know for a fact its a wrong choice because of the road its heading down. Maybe God sees it as a sin, I don't really know. Do I want to take that chance? No.

I was in ministry with my husband for 4 years and I counselled way too many "Christian" couples who loved each other and God and ...... "accidently" had sex.

In high school good friends of mine who I am 100% positive loved each other and loved God made choices that got her pregnant at 17. There are many stories like this.

I can tell you what you SHOULD do, but its not going to feel good and so you won't want to do it. Still I will try to warn you. You need to stop or in a month or maybe 6 you'll be back with one of those stories of "accidently" having sex.

Straightnarrow · Oct 10, 2005

Hey. yes, I do know what you are talking about. You want to have a godly relationship, but you want to express your love in the best way you can. Well I'm only 17, so you have a few years on me, but maybe you'll be able to benefit from what I've discovered nevertheless.

I'd say the EASIEST way to look at issues like this is to look at the "fruit." Mat. 7:16-20 says, "By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Now, I know that often this passage is used as a measure for PEOPLE, but I believe that it applies extremely well to actions and choices as well. Is what you want to do going to draw you closer to God? Will it cause you to stumble in your Christian walk? Will it cause the one you live to stumble in hers? Will this draw you both closer in a Godly relationship each other? Or will it only lead to temptation? Those are the type of questions that you both need to ask yourselves. What will be the fruit (outcome) of our situation? This passage is really the greatest standard I have ever found when dealing with things like you situation. There are always counter-arguments to personal opinions and experiences (and even against some other Bible verses) but when I run a descision through the "fruit test" I have yet to feel like a made bad descision.

And then as just a side note I guess, remember that we (because we are human and have a sinful nature) often try to "justify" our descisions to make ourselves feel less guilty. We try to play games with God like, "oh well you greeted your disciples with a holy kiss, so that means it probably okay for me makeout with my girlfriend." God sees right through that stuff, all we are doing is fooling ourselves. Just be aware of that (which I'm sure you are) when you are reading the word and looking for guidance in situations like yours.

keep God first

Eccp19 · Oct 11, 2005

Straightnarrow said:
Hey. yes, I do know what you are talking about. You want to have a godly relationship, but you want to express your love in the best way you can. Well I'm only 17, so you have a few years on me, but maybe you'll be able to benefit from what I've discovered nevertheless.

I'd say the EASIEST way to look at issues like this is to look at the "fruit." Mat. 7:16-20 says, "By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

Now, I know that often this passage is used as a measure for PEOPLE, but I believe that it applies extremely well to actions and choices as well. Is what you want to do going to draw you closer to God? Will it cause you to stumble in your Christian walk? Will it cause the one you live to stumble in hers? Will this draw you both closer in a Godly relationship each other? Or will it only lead to temptation? Those are the type of questions that you both need to ask yourselves. What will be the fruit (outcome) of our situation? This passage is really the greatest standard I have ever found when dealing with things like you situation. There are always counter-arguments to personal opinions and experiences (and even against some other Bible verses) but when I run a descision through the "fruit test" I have yet to feel like a made bad descision.

And then as just a side note I guess, remember that we (because we are human and have a sinful nature) often try to "justify" our descisions to make ourselves feel less guilty. We try to play games with God like, "oh well you greeted your disciples with a holy kiss, so that means it probably okay for me makeout with my girlfriend." God sees right through that stuff, all we are doing is fooling ourselves. Just be aware of that (which I'm sure you are) when you are reading the word and looking for guidance in situations like yours.

keep God first

Thank you for bringing up that passage. That helps a lot and really puts things in perspective better.

f U z ! o N · Oct 11, 2005

i can tell you right now that if you continue to show physical love you will destroy your relationship. hold hands, lightly kiss, and put your arm around her. thats as far as you should be going. when you start getting more and more physical it gets to the point where you can't turn back and you are like how did we get here? if you respect her don't be touching her body where it shouldn't be touched. it seems to me you are looking for a reason to continue these activities when you KNOW that you shouldn't. don't fall into the grips of Satan. uphold the purity of each other and leave the physical stuff for when you are married.

chpxpx · Oct 11, 2005

Basically, keep your clothes on and your hands to yourself!! (with the exception of hand-holding, hehe)

FaithfulServant · Oct 11, 2005

Aren't you the same person who made the thread about cuddling in bed/taking naps together?

Just curious, because I still think that doing things like that laying in a bed together and cuddling seem innocent...but open the door for bigger things like whatever PG-13 things happened.

The Princess Bride · Oct 11, 2005

Eccp19 said:
...............So what is considered of a sexually immoral nature? (please no opinions, I want words from the divinely written book!) I highly doubt there is a concrete answer because couples differ so much.

I would say anything that you know you have crossed/violated. Obviously sex outside of marriage is wrong, plain and simple, but the gray areas is if something so simple as kissing is wrong. All I can say, is search for the answer to that yourself. If you cross a boundary that is wrong, God WILL convict you of it. Also, talk to your GF about what boundaries need to be set, WRITE them down, put them in a place where you can see them daily. Also, give a copy to both your parents and someone you trust and know will hold you accountable. It is obvious you feel, nay, KNOW you crossed some boundaries, and it is good that you have recognized that. And knowing that, you need accountability to keep from going there again.

Also where does lust and love separate in any physical act? I mean husbands and wives obviously desire the other's body the same as unmarried people, but is this not lust? is it right just because of the committment of marriage? because they truely love one another?

The only thing I can think of is this:

Lust wants it now~~~~Love can wait
Lust wants pleasure~~~Love wants what is best for the other
Lust wants to get~~~~Love wants to give

I think that is the defining difference.

Inperfected · Oct 11, 2005

Ahhuh! I have 2 points. First being most important!

You asked for advice. "We are both very confused now as to what is right and what is wrong."
Obviously you dont' feel it is right and god put a conscience in you for a reason so i believe.

2ndly, there are many verses, "do what is right in the eyes of others, to the best of your ability', marriage bed pure (you WILL find this is taking about more than the actual act), 'rejoice in the wife of your youth....' those are just a couple.

f U z ! o N · Oct 11, 2005

your relationship should be based more on emotional and spiritual than physical so basically hands off!!

Leanna · Oct 11, 2005

Amen to all the posts since I left. Unless you do something drastically Godly, Eccp19, I am really worried about where you are going. I have seen this too many times.... too many times.... it breaks my heart.

In the end there is pain and brokenness even if marriage happens after it all. It only feels good for a time.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.... that's a Proverb, so there's a Bible verse for you not an opinion.

livingondreams · Oct 11, 2005

The fact that you've had to ask shows that you know what you're doing is wrong. God gives us a conscience for a reason.

I know how hard it is to maintain your purity when you are in a serious relationship with someone you love. Believe me, I know...

septemberskies · Oct 11, 2005

I all can do is echo the previous posters (especially Leanna and Fuz!on). You know what your doing is not right, now its up to you to make an effort to get yourself and her control over the matter. Not everything is black & white.... true. But you are clearly treading thin ice here. You can't justify it, you have no biblical grounds to get all touchy/feely in "Canada" or "Mexico" as Leanna puts it. If you truly respect her and love her then God will take centerstage in everything that you do together. God doesn't sit in the backseat, he is in the driver's seat.

f U z ! o N · Oct 12, 2005

imagine it like this. whatever you are doing Jesus is right there with you. now imagine touching where you shouldn't be and Jesus is watching you do that! feel awkward now? think like that every time and it will be a lot easier to deal with. sure you may be in love and thats fine but true, real love cares about purity and will uphold it to the highest standard. sure, we fall. we all do. but pick up your feet and continue the goal of purity. if you want your relationship to last do not and i repeat DO NOT KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING. do not lay in bed together, don't touch the no no places (haha) and please get control of your emotions. if you really care for her stop this stuff and quit trying to justify it because you can't. the bible won't let you and God himself won't let you. take the physical away and focus on spiritual and emotional building. when you do that the payoffs are far greater than physical. when all your relationship is based on physical or a huge part of it is thats just wrong. it should be all spiritual and emotional during dating and little physical.

don't be stupid and please don't head down satan's road that will only lead to a broken heart. can't you see it?

Eccp19 · Oct 12, 2005

Just because you question something does not necessarily mean you feel guilty about it or your conscience is convicting you. I'm questioning certain things because I don't know (well didn't before a few actually posted scripture like i requested) for sure what was Godly and what was legalistic. Thank you to the ones that actually read the content of my post and understood that I was confused, NOT trying to get around barriers that God intended for married folk.

All I was hoping to get out of this post was Biblical fact, not a finger pointed at my face. So thanks again to a few.

f U z ! o N · Oct 12, 2005

dude im not trying to bash you but how can you be confused about boundaries?
its simple no touching chest area or below the waist. how hard can that be to understand?

Inperfected · Oct 12, 2005

aI hope i am one of those few...

Fusion... sometimes you have to just post what is asked for, not actual opinions... I could've given many opinions, from both angles... but there are so many that it turns into that... opinions.

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