Dispensationalism

Laserman · Mar 4, 2004

Hi All,

Are there any dispensationalist out there who do not hold to the "Postponement theory"? What about the New Testmament term "Kingdom"? Do any of you not tie the meaning strictly to the 1000 years of Rev 20? Do any of you find the Kingdom mentioned by Jesus and the apostles to spiritual ( Salvation) in matter rather thanjust a literal 1000 year Jewish led Kingdom on the earth before the 2nd coming and after the rapture? How about the carnal Christian theory and Lordship Salvation issues? If you are a dispentionalist where do you stand on these issues and why? Not trying to start a fight here. I'm interested in these issues. I'm curretnly Amill but I question my beliefs all the time and search for deeper truth.

Barry :bow:

Breetai · Mar 4, 2004

Good questions Laserman! I usually lean to amil., but I'm all over the bloody place with my studies on eschatology. I know that dispensationalism teaches that these things you speak of are literal in their meaning, not spiritual. I wouldn't be surprised is some dispensationalists held a 'dual prophacy' idea. I consider that to be a valid area of study.

Gary777 · Mar 4, 2004

i founs two definitions of dispensationonalism:

1) In short dispensationalists are those who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture of the church

2) How god acted towards mankind during differnet dispensations (pre-flood, pre-law, law, churchage etc.)

So according to the first im not one, but according to the second i am one. Realising that this was not your question, but maybe a defintion of what you mean by disp. could be helpful.

Whats the postponement theory?

Sheilaw · Mar 4, 2004

Laserman said:
Hi All,

Are there any dispensationalist out there who do not hold to the "Postponement theory"? What about the New Testmament term "Kingdom"? Do any of you not tie the meaning strictly to the 1000 years of Rev 20? Do any of you find the Kingdom mentioned by Jesus and the apostles to spiritual ( Salvation) in matter rather thanjust a literal 1000 year Jewish led Kingdom on the earth before the 2nd coming and after the rapture? How about the carnal Christian theory and Lordship Salvation issues? If you are a dispentionalist where do you stand on these issues and why? Not trying to start a fight here. I'm interested in these issues. I'm curretnly Amill but I question my beliefs all the time and search for deeper truth.

Barry

I prefer to use the words of Christ himself and Christ made it clear that those looking for some carnal physical kingdom were lost.

Christ said "The Kingdom is neither here nor there..NOT SOME CARNAL set of cities and castle.. there is no confusion over that direct statement.

The Kingdom is within you and so shall it start, before any physical aspects.

Laserman · Mar 4, 2004

Gary777,

The "Postponement theory" goes like this. Christ offered the literal 1000 Year Kingdom of Rev 20 to the Nation of Israel at his first coming. Isreal rejected the offered Kingdom, so God Postponed the inauguaration of the kingdom till the church period is completed. After the rapture God will again deal primarily with the Jews during the tribulation and bring in "the Postponed Kingdom". So in the dispensational Mind, Christ is not King now, he is not seated on the throne of David till the 1000 year kingdom. By Keeping the "kingdom" to be only literal and not spiritual dispensationalist believe The church is in no way "In the Kingdom" now . Although the whole new testament is against that idea ( Unless a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God). If you believe the church is not taking in the Blessings promised to Isreal in the Old testament, If you believe Israel in the Old testament was not the church, If you keep Israel and the church as seperate bodies, If you believe pre-trib rapture awaits the church-then the 7 year trib-2nd coming then 1000 Year Kingdom on the earth: Then You are a dispensationlist and you hold to the Postponment theory. The Bible simply does not teach dispensationalism one iota to my mind. The postponment theory is a needed part of dispensational thought in order to eternally seperate the church from Israel even though Paul said in Gal 6 the church is the Israel of God. Israel made the same mistake at the first coming that dispensationalist make today. The main idea of the Bible is spiritual salvation. The Jews killed Christ becsue he said He was God but didn't bring in a Jewish Nationalistic Kingdom. He brought in a Spiritual Kingdom which was what all the OLD TESTAMENT PROMISES were really about; Spiritual Realities! The Kingdom of God in the fullest sense is the new Heavens and the new earth beyond the 2nd coming, Not a small piece of land in the Palestine. That land-kingdom was just a type, a forshadow. Isreal didn't understand it then-dispensationalism doesn't get it today.

Barry

Barry

Laserman · Mar 4, 2004

Hi all,

If there are any dispensationalist wh o do not hold to the postponement theory and the complete seperation of Israel and the church , Please answer. A dispensational view without these objectional doctrines would be interesting to discus. It's not the rapture and the tribulation-antichrist stuff or even the 1000 year kingdom that's the problem to me as it is these other doctrines that clearly misunderstand Christ's first advent and mission. Christ accomplished His mission in inaugrating the New Covenant, we are "Inaugurated into the kingdom" . If you hold to this I'd like to hear more about it.

Barry

duster1az · Mar 4, 2004

Laserman writes:

Are there any dispensationalist out there who do not hold to the "Postponement theory"? What about the New Testmament term "Kingdom"? Do any of you not tie the meaning strictly to the 1000 years of Rev 20?

My theology is dispensational and I believe there's more to the kingdom of God/heaven than Christ's millennial reign. Although I do believe its mundane aspect, which is God's rule in the earth, was postponed at Christ's first advent; His kingdom extends to all intelligences, angels and men. My definition would be the universal authority of God over loyal subjects from everlasting to everlasting.

In Christ,
Tracey

FreeinChrist · Mar 4, 2004

Gary777 said:
i founs two definitions of dispensationonalism:

1) In short dispensationalists are those who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture of the church

2) How god acted towards mankind during differnet dispensations (pre-flood, pre-law, law, churchage etc.)

So according to the first im not one, but according to the second i am one. Realising that this was not your question, but maybe a defintion of what you mean by disp. could be helpful.

Whats the postponement theory?

Those definitions are sorely lacking. IMHO.

From Charles Ryrie:
"A dispensation is a distinguishable economy in the outworking of Gods purpose."

"Dispensationism views the world as a household run by God. In His household-world God is dispensing or administering its affairs according to His own will and in various stages of revelation in the passage of time."

"A dispensation is from Gods viewpoint an economy; from mans viewpoint, a responsibility; and in relation to progressive revelation, a stage of it."

"The basis of salvation in every age is the death of Christ; the requirement of salvation in every age is faith; the object of faith in every age is God; the content of faith changes in the various dispensations."

To explain it: consider that Abraham was not under the Law that was given to Moses. He didn't have to worry about a red heifer, or ritual washings, or need a Levitical priesthood. Neither did Noah.

And since the death and resurrection of Christ, we are no longer under the Law that was given to Moses, but are in a new Covenant. All are saved by grace through faith...but there were requirements for showing that faith under the Law of Moses that we do not have now. And we believe in a future dispensation - the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

Not all premillenialists are dispensationists, but all dispensationists are premillenialists. However, not all dispensationists are pretribbers. Some are posttrib.
Dispensationism sees the church and Israel as separate. They are distinct from each other. We believe this is backed up in Romans 11, for instance.
Dispensationism sees the underlying purpose of God in the world as not just the salvation of the world, but to show the glory of God.

FreeinChrist · Mar 4, 2004

Laserman said:
Hi All,

Are there any dispensationalist out there who do not hold to the "Postponement theory"? What about the New Testmament term "Kingdom"? Do any of you not tie the meaning strictly to the 1000 years of Rev 20? Do any of you find the Kingdom mentioned by Jesus and the apostles to spiritual ( Salvation) in matter rather thanjust a literal 1000 year Jewish led Kingdom on the earth before the 2nd coming and after the rapture? How about the carnal Christian theory and Lordship Salvation issues? If you are a dispentionalist where do you stand on these issues and why? Not trying to start a fight here. I'm interested in these issues. I'm curretnly Amill but I question my beliefs all the time and search for deeper truth.

Barry

I believe there is a 'kingdom' of Christ reigning in His believers, but that there is a future, literal earthly reign of Christ on this earth. The prophecies of christ's first coming was fulfilled literally...don't see why the Second is not fuflilled literally.

I do NOT believe in Kingdom Now Theolgy or Dominian Theology as explained here: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l04.html

And i do not believe in the "carnal Christian" . Either one is or isn't a Christian. It is only God who knows for sure.

By the way, Laserman, you say you are amil...do you believe in a future physical return of Christ?

Justme · Mar 5, 2004

Hi Free,

Do you believe in a grave emptying resurrection? I ask because you mentioned so many times that the 'spirit' goes to Heaven at death....

Confusing????

Justme

Atkin · Mar 5, 2004

Justme said:
Hi Free,

Do you believe in a grave emptying resurrection? I ask because you mentioned so many times that the 'spirit' goes to Heaven at death....

Confusing????

Justme

Do not forget that many graves have disintegrated and are actually not

even present in the earth.

Many people were not buried in graves but were burnt, chopped up , drowned in bodies of water etc...

Let's talk about how they resurrect as well .. that is.. resurrecting from

dispersed particles blown away into forgotten gases of centuries ago.

FreeinChrist · Mar 5, 2004

I believe that upon death, the spirit goes to heaven but the body stays in the grave - thus it 'sleeps'. However, I believe there will be a future 'grave-emptying' resurrection of the body to an imperishable bodyand the spirits will join the body again. .

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

And I believe God can handle what ever was done with the body by mankind.

Linda8 · Mar 5, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
I believe that upon death, the spirit goes to heaven but the body stays in the grave - thus it 'sleeps'. However, I believe there will be a future 'grave-emptying' resurrection of the body to an imperishable bodyand the spirits will join the body again. .

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

And I believe God can handle what ever was done with the body by mankind.

How would you feel if it turned out you were a resurrected person ?

I mean, we have no way of knowing how the resurrection takes place.

How would you feel?

FreeinChrist · Mar 5, 2004

Linda8 said:
How would you feel if it turned out you were a resurrected person ?

I mean, we have no way of knowing how the resurrection takes place.

How would you feel?

We cannot be resurrected unless our body dies first. As far as I know, until the the 'catching -away' of I Thes. 4, every human being faces the inevitability of physical death. I will KNOW when I am changed to an imperishable body because I will be with the Lord.

Brings up another point - was Paul saved? I'd say so....and yet he was looking for the blessed hope, expecting a future catching up, or a future imperishable body. There is no reason to state that the Christians today are 'resurrected' and Paul wasn't when he wrote his epistles.

Linda8 · Mar 5, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
We cannot be resurrected unless our body dies first. As far as I know, until the the 'catching -away' of I Thes. 4, every human being faces the inevitability of physical death. I will KNOW when I am changed to an imperishable body because I will be with the Lord.

Brings up another point - was Paul saved? I'd say so....and yet he was looking for the blessed hope, expecting a future catching up, or a future imperishable body. There is no reason to state that the Christians today are 'resurrected' and Paul wasn't when he wrote his epistles.

How can one confirm whether he/she has not had a body that died before?

There is absolutely no means of knowing, since all memory is lost after death.

The spirit departs and goes back and knoweth not when it returns.

FreeinChrist · Mar 5, 2004

Linda8 said:
How can one confirm whether he/she has not had a body that died before?

There is absolutely no means of knowing, since all memory is lost after death.

The spirit departs and goes back and knoweth not when it returns.

Excuse me??? Do you believe in reincarnation?

Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this {comes} judgment,
Are you of a particular denomination or a particular religious group?

Justme · Mar 5, 2004

Hi Free,

I believe that upon death, the spirit goes to heaven but the body stays in the grave - thus it 'sleeps'. However, I believe there will be a future 'grave-emptying' resurrection of the body to an imperishable bodyand the spirits will join the body again. .

Well, there are two bodies for us as far as 1 Cpor 15 says. There is the natural which is what we are in right now. After this natural or earthly body we have a spiritual or Heavenly body. Where does the bible mention this third option?

Where does the bible talk about the spirit re-uniting with the decayed body, the body that has returned to dust? Where does the bible talk about that spiritual invisible heavenly body becoming physically visible again?

You showed us:
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Justme

FreeinChrist · Mar 5, 2004

Justme said:
Hi Free,

Well, there are two bodies for us as far as 1 Cpor 15 says. There is the natural which is what we are in right now. After this natural or earthly body we have a spiritual or Heavenly body. Where does the bible mention this third option?

Where does the bible talk about the spirit re-uniting with the decayed body, the body that has returned to dust? Where does the bible talk about that spiritual invisible heavenly body becoming physically visible again?

You showed us:
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Justme

Well, we are really straying from the subject of this thread....

1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?1Cr 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;1Cr 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.1Cr 15:15 Moreover we are even found {to be} false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.1Cr 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;1Cr 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.1Cr 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Justme, do you believe that Jesus rose physically from the grave?
I know you don't believe that Jesus will return physically at the Second Coming...that the you see the second coming as occurring at the death of each individual...but I wondered if you believed Jesus rose physically or not?

Laserman · Mar 5, 2004

FreeInChrist,

Yes, By all means I believe in a literal 2nd coming of Christ. I also hold to a great tribulation period and a personal real AntiChrist as well. I do believe that the Kingdom that the old Test prophesied about, the kingdom Christ offered and spoke about, and the Kingdom The Apostles spoke about is here and now. Not fully, just inaugurated. The fullest revalation of the kingdom will happen at the 2nd Coming of Christ which will begin the new heaven and new earth ( eternity). I don't think the kingdom is limited to only 1ooo years. I think the Kingdom is bigger than just Rev 20. Paul told us in Colos that we are transfered out of the kingdom of darkness an into the Kingdom of Christ upon salvation. Christ said to enter the kingdom You must be born again. I can go on and on.

Barry :hug:

Laserman · Mar 5, 2004

Tracy,

Why do you think the kingdom was "postponed"? What scripture do you have to make this claim and why iun your opinion is the Kingdom not salvation today?

Barry :clap:

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