Originally posted by KC Catholic
Could you provide proof of these "claims" Lion?
The answer in itself should be a new topic?
That way It can develop it into a a discussion that would shed lite of the entire subject?
Richard
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Originally posted by KC Catholic
Could you provide proof of these "claims" Lion?
Originally posted by Trento
Catholics , Jews and some Protestant denominations pray FOR the dead. Jews don't call it Purgatory they pray the Kaddish.2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying For the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person's soul could be helped by the prayer of others.
Revelation 21:27 states that no impure person will enter heaven. "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." If a person dies with some minor sins still on their record, then they are obviously not pure. Logic would seem to indicate that they must go to some place to be refined until they can attain heaven.
Other passages include: Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23.
Passages which discuss "penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead" are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 2 Timothy 4:19. These have been used to imply the existence of Purgatory
Originally posted by Lion Heart
trento,
you are amazing, the verses you've quoted are a big zero on purgatory.
which one of these scriptures imply the existence of purgatory?
Deut 34
8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
Num 20
29 And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, even all the house of Israel.
2 Tim 4
9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
What an imagination, one must have to develop this implication of the existence of purgatory!
Are you able to draw this teaching out of these verses?
Would you ,please?
Respectfully,
RICHARD
2 Tim 1
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Originally posted by KC Catholic
Richard -
Did you even take the time to read the information I posted? It answered every issue any non-Catholic could have with Purgatory. I take the time to read your posts before responding - maybe you could afford the Catholics the same courtesy?
Originally posted by Lion Heart
kc, Are trento also?
I looked at the bible verses, not one implicate the existence of purgatory.
The verses I posted are the ones that have no explanation beside them they are just lumped in their making a general statement,
This why I ask you for an explanation, maybe it my blindness, please help.
Richard
Originally posted by KC Catholic
Huh? KC Catholic IS KC Catholic. Trento is someone else.
Here is what I posted earlier:
From Catholic Answers
http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
Purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:25).
Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment." It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).
Originally posted by Trento
Prayers for the dead were upheld by the council of Carthage in 394 A.D.
This was the same council that 217 Bishops of the Catholic Church confirmed the twenty seven books
of the NT to be sacred scripture . Why should i blieve them to be Sacred scripture if these men are heretical. No logic at all.
I humble myself to the like of Fathers Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Cyril, Gregory of Nyssa, Epiphanius, Jerome, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Venerable Bede and second-millennium theologians such as Anselm, Bernard, Aquinas and Bonaventure..." To the early Christians whos Prayers for the departed can be read on the walls of the Catacombs and early Church litergies.
Originally posted by Lion Heart
QUOTE]
All your REFERENCES are SUSPECT...
Does He ever post a good source?
Originally posted by gwyyn
OK I have read through the arguement over whether or not purgatory is mentioned in the bible. However I do have one question or maybe just a statement. If we die with sin on us, as I'm sure many will cause no one is perfect, does that mean the majority of us will go to Purgatory/Hades??
just wondering??
Before you get too excited, Richard, you might want to peruse the link below, which has all 58 chapters of Tertullian's work, not just the first six.http://www.earlychristianwritings.c...rtullian09.html
The following is the link to Tertullians work The Soul it only has VI Chapters, no reference to PURGATORY
All your REFERENCES are SUSPECT...
Does He ever post a good source?