Satan Bound?

So in Revelation 21, Jesus was referring to the end of pain, sorrow, death, etc as things that would pass away after we die?

Originally posted by Mandy
So in Revelation 21, Jesus was referring to the end of pain, sorrow, death, etc as things that would pass away after we die?

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No, Rev 21 is as I've said previously -the tears etc are to do with sin and the inadequacy of the old covenant to deal with it. I was just making the obvious point also that when we step through the veil of death "in Christ" we do so rejoicing.

davo

I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Originally posted by Mandy
I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

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No worries then . I was referring back to my post #18.

Davo,

It's obvious that some of the people here believe in only physical manifestations of pain and death.

They don't seem to realize that through Christ's death and resurrection- and his *new* covenant with man, *spiritual* death is now defeated along with the spiritual pain which accompanies it.

(directed to others)
I'm sorry, but the pain I feel of a friend dying in a nuclear explosion doesn't nearly rival the pain he/she will feel if they weren't saved while they existed on earth.
Sitting in the lake of fire for eternity....realizing you *had* the chance to be with God forever, and you snubbed your nose at Him...now *thats* pain.

-A

Originally posted by armothe
They don't seem to realize that through Christ's death and his *new* covenant with man, *spiritual* death is now defeated along with the spiritual pain which accompanies it.

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Seems you're right Armothe -there's more to LIFE than meets the eye .

davo

Originally posted by davo


No worries then . I was referring back to my post #18.

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Then why did you quote post #21?

That still does not make sense, considering Jesus made the New Covenant clear in the Gospels.

No one said that there aren't spiritual aspects to pain. Those that have been redeemed by Christ are already free from spiritual death, so it is clear that Rev. 21 is not dealing with the spiritual.

Mandy,

Allow me to speak from my viewpoint.

As you know, preterists belive that Christ's return took place near 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Christ's return marked the fulfillment of His new covenant with man. God's first covenant, based upon works (and the Law for the Jews) is now gone. His NEW covenant is now based upon salvation.

It is my personal belief that salvation hadn't been completed until Christ's 2nd coming. Which, I also believe already happened in 70AD

So, if you or anyone else holds the viewpoint that Christ has yet to come, I would state that you/they also believe that his NEW covenant, based on salvation is not yet complete. Which means, when you die, you are going to Hades, and not directly into God's presence.

-A

Originally posted by armothe

So, if you or anyone else holds the viewpoint that Christ has yet to come, I would state that you/they also believe that his NEW covenant, based on salvation is not yet complete. Which means, when you die, you are going to Hades, and not directly into God's presence.

-A

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Let me be sure I am understanding you, armo. Are you saying that we futurists are not saved?

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


Let me be sure I am understanding you, armo. Are you saying that we futurists are not saved?

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If I may.......

No, of course futurists are saved.

What we are asserting is that if futurism is correct, then Christians only have the "earnest" of salvation, and not the thing itself.

Thankfully, futurism is not correct, and ALL Christians have actual, finalized salvation today.

Originally posted by parousia70


If I may.......

No, of course futurists are saved.

What we are asserting is that if futurism is correct, then Christians only have the "earnest" of salvation, and not the thing itself.

Thankfully, futurism is not correct, and ALL Christians have actual, finalized salvation today.

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How do you answer the preterist view that futurism makes Christ a false prophet? We don't believe Christ returned in 70AD, therefore, according to preterism, futurist can't be saved, as our denial of his prediction that He would return during that generation, surely we are saying Christ was a false prophet since we refuse to believe He returned in 70AD.

I can't and I won't speak for all futurists, but to me the Bible clearly states that salvation was secured at the cross and that my personal salvation was secured the moment I believed and trusted Christ for my salvation. "Finalized" salvation has nothing to do with when Jesus comes again. I am sealed until the day of redemption, period.

Originally posted by Mandy
I can't and I won't speak for all futurists, but to me the Bible clearly states that salvation was secured at the cross and that my personal salvation was secured the moment I believed and trusted Christ for my salvation. "Finalized" salvation has nothing to do with when Jesus comes again. I am sealed until the day of redemption, period.

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Then why does Christ have to come back?

Originally posted by Pericles
Then why does Christ have to come back?

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To claim what is His

All Christians are saved, whether Futurists or Preterists. Why? because Christ died for our sins on the cross and was raised the 3rd day.

I am asserting that the New Covenant from God - which is based upon Salvation - was not complete until Christ's 2nd coming in 70AD.

Auntie, you have a knack for twisting words and generalizing.

Read Revelation again.

Do you believe you are saved by Salvation alone, and not by works? Then why at the judgement (as stated in Revelation) are those in Hades judged based upon their works?

If you believe the 2nd coming has yet to occur, and man has yet to be judged, then you must believe that you go to Hades when you die. There you will wait until the time of judgement to find out whether your name is written in the book of Life.....where you are judged based upon your works.

Thankfully, the judgement already occured in 70AD and we will go straight to God's presence when we die.

-A

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


How do you answer the preterist view that futurism makes Christ a false prophet? We don't believe Christ returned in 70AD, therefore, according to preterism, futurist can't be saved, as our denial of his prediction that He would return during that generation, surely we are saying Christ was a false prophet since we refuse to believe He returned in 70AD.

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Futurism dosen't "make" Christ a false prophet, for Chirst is the TRUE prophet, and no partucular "eschatology" can alter that fact no matter how many people believe in it.

Ones Eschatology does not effect ones salvation status.
Adhering to the "correct" eschaton has never been, is not now, nor ever shall be "criteria" for salvation.

Originally posted by Mandy
"Finalized" salvation has nothing to do with when Jesus comes again. I am sealed until the day of redemption, period.

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So, are you saying you are already redeemed?
Even though the day of redemption has not yet arrived?

Originally posted by stnkyminky


To claim what is His

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How does Christ's claim change the FACT that everything belongs to him already? Today you don't belong to Christ? The world doesn't belong to God and Christ? How much more will the world belong to Christ if he appeared in a body in Jerusalem?

Those people in Hades will be judged by their works because they were not redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. What else would God have to judge them by? When I was saved, Jesus' righteousness was imputed to me, I was justified in God's sight. The unsaved have to answer for themselves. The only people in Hades are the unsaved. True Christians go to be with the Lord.

Originally posted by Mandy
. The only people in Hades are the unsaved. True Christians go to be with the Lord.

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In the OT, all the dead, Saint and unbeliever alike went to Hades, now, if you are asserting that today only the unsaved are in hades, then you are asserting that the OT Saints have been resurrected out of Hades, and are now in Gods presence.

When exactly do you believe this happened?