Riddle me this...

The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

The other person refuses to even recongnize that there is a God - the very object of righteousness.

What do you think?

Is there such a person as one who really does not believe in God?

Are the people who say they do not believe in God only liars?

Originally posted by theyre here
I don't.

But anyway... you misunderstand... the second person has never heard of God, doesn't know, has no way of knowing.

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God will judge accordingly, it isn't for us to worry about.

Originally posted by s0uljah


God will judge accordingly, it isn't for us to worry about.

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OK! There is a Biblical answer but if it is not for us to worry about I will withdraw it.

"the second person has never heard of God, doesn't know, has no way of knowing."

I disagree with 'has no way of knowing.' The bible loudly proclaims that no one is without excuse to see the evidence of God: they simply have to look up into the night sky.

As far as I know, there is not a single tribe, or people group on Earth that was ever athiest or is athiest. Athiesm is the direct result of rejecting the established God or gods - so in fact, a true athiest as you claim would not exist for in order to accept athiesm, a person must reject a theism.

Now, in theory, you could have a person who knows nothing at all about a God and be blind, mute, deaf, and lame, but in reality and actuality, it has never ever been true. The reality of God is expressed to all cultures, all peoples, all tribes, languages, and nations - and as such, everyone responds to it. This is the promise of God to all of mankind - even you: that if you seek Him, you will find him. If you don't know He exists, then Creation exists in front of your very experience to wonder yourself and begin seeking.

Originally posted by Josephus
"the second person has never heard of God, doesn't know, has no way of knowing."

I disagree with 'has no way of knowing.' The bible loudly proclaims that no one is without excuse to see the evidence of God: they simply have to look up into the night sky.

As far as I know, there is not a single tribe, or people group on Earth that was ever athiest or is athiest. Athiesm is the direct result of rejecting the established God or gods - so in fact, a true athiest as you claim would not exist for in order to accept athiesm, a person must reject a theism.

Now, in theory, you could have a person who knows nothing at all about a God and be blind, mute, deaf, and lame, but in reality and actuality, it has never ever been true. The reality of God is expressed to all cultures, all peoples, all tribes, languages, and nations - and as such, everyone responds to it. This is the promise of God to all of mankind - even you: that if you seek Him, you will find him. If you don't know He exists, then Creation exists in front of your very experience to wonder yourself and begin seeking.

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So they can have some idea of a God, or Gods, but they could imagine Him to be some fake Gods.

How does God deal with that situation?

Originally posted by theyre here
A thought experiment:

Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

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This is not a thought experiment, but an experiment in ignorance.

It is written:

"Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power an divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made so that men are without exuse . For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools...therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts...to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done." (Romans 1:20-22, 24a, 28b)

The Bible is more than clear: All men know there is a God because creation itself exists. Even if we choose to believe He does not exist to suit our own evil desires, we are not exempt from the consequences.

...So who is more righteous? it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 2:10-18)

All men are damned. No man can be good enough to be righteous on his own. It is our nature to be evil.

Righteousness comes by faith in God through Christ alone. That's why it's called salvation. Our righteousness is not our own, but God's who is the source and beginning of all Holiness.

Those who deny God's existance "deliberately forget that long ago by God's Word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water." (2 Peter 3:5)

Atheism is purposeful ignorance.

Peace to all who seek it.
<><

I will pray for you.

<><

theyre here said:

A thought experiment:



Who is the more righteous person...

1) The one who accepts the Christian God out of fear for eternal hell and does no evil.

2) The person who knows no religion and despite human nature, does good on his own, in the name of no God?

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Both men are sinners and, of themselves, seperated from God by their unrighteousness.

The first man is reconciled to God through Christ's imputed righteousness.

theyre here said:

So, the thought experiment worked. The true experiment was to see of you were able to mentally imagine a person who cares not, knows not, and believes not in a deity of any type. You were not able to imagine such a person.

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Sadly, I can imagine such a person. I was in Russia soon after communism "fell." Nothing is sadder than the rows of graves there with red stars on them instead of crosses.

If the aspect of God and Christianity runs so deep within every thread of every thought you have, how can you ever examine something objectively?

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The most objective view of every subject is God's. Only He knows all the facts. The closer I am to Him, the more clearly I hear His voice, the more objective I can be.

Science requires objectivity. Commentary on scientific principles without objectivity is contrary to the scientific method.

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True. And human perspective is essentially subjective.

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There is no way for a person to be righteous except through the atoning work of Christ Jesus. "Righteous" = "right with God."

blessings in Him
tal

Second person. God loves everyone, and if you live your life doing good then that's what counts.

It's easy to quote scripture to prove a point. You can even quote it to prove two opposing points.

The whole point of Christ's teaching was that we are good to one another. So if someone lives like that how can they be wrong?

Stavo said:

Second person. God loves everyone, and if you live your life doing good then that's what counts.

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WRONG. What counts is knowing God. If Hitler truly converted on his deathbed, he is with the Lord today. If Ghandi did not, he is not with the Lord today.

Stavo said:

It's easy to quote scripture to prove a point. You can even quote it to prove two opposing points.

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Do you have scripture to back up your assertions in this post?

Stavo said:

The whole point of Christ's teaching was that we are good to one another.

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WRONG. The whole point of Christ's teaching was to point out the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Stavo said:

So if someone lives like that how can they be wrong?

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They can be wrong because God says they are - apart from Him we can do no good thing.

blessings in Him
tal

I believe that God is forgiving so you're probably right about Hitler, but not about Gandhi.

But I have friends that are great humanitarians. They don't believe in God, but it doesn't mean he doesn't love them. Do you think they'r going to hell if they don't become theists?

And I'm sorry but the WHOLE POINT of Christ's teaching wasn't just to point out the Kingdom of God, it was to teach us how to get there, by loving each other.

Stavo said:

But I have friends that are great humanitarians. They don't believe in God, but it doesn't mean he doesn't love them. Do you think they'r going to hell if they don't become theists?

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Someone can be a theist, but if they're a theist who's seperated from God by sin, then they're lost.

And I'm sorry but the WHOLE POINT of Christ's teaching wasn't just to point out the Kingdom of God, it was to teach us how to get there, by loving each other.

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Where in the Bible does Jesus teach salvation by anything other than faith in His atonement on the cross?

Stavo said:

But I have friends that are great humanitarians. They don't believe in God, but it doesn't mean he doesn't love them. Do you think they'r going to hell if they don't become theists?

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Absolutely. Has nothing to do with whether or not God loves them and everything to do with whether or not they love God. God has ALWAYS loved EVERYONE -- this life is about OUR making a decision.

Stavo said:

And I'm sorry but the WHOLE POINT of Christ's teaching wasn't just to point out the Kingdom of God, it was to teach us how to get there, by loving each other.

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We do NOT get into the Kingdom of God by loving each other.

blessings in Christ alone
tal

What about in the sermon on the mount?

I fail to believe that people are being so one-dimensional.

You can say that I'm not a true Christian if you want but I think there's more than one path to God. I think that Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, atheists etc will all be with God if they lead a good life. And don't tell me that the only "good life" is through God.