Reformationist 1Cor 15:22

Lion Heart · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson

That's just it -= we're trying to figure out what GOd's teachings are. Two of the people who have tried to do so are men - but they were operating under the assumption they were looking for God's teachings.

Sorry,

I thought you said we were arguing.

There is no argument, if we can rightly see and divide the word of truth.

My advice is file all those commentaries and help books in the attic and only refer to them when you want to know what MANS opinions are.

The pure word is able to make one WISE unto salvation.

God Bless as you you seek him thru HIS word.

RICHARD

Blackhawk · May 25, 2002

"What brings this up is the ARMINIUS'S idea put forth that "God somehow makes it possible that man can save himself, by beleieving in Him.""

Was this quote from an earlier post? Anyways Arminius did not believe this either. Even his critics say that. Some say that Arminius made salvation not momergistic but synergistic. But man never really saves himslef. It is just that God through previent grace makes it possible for all men to choose or reject Him.

"If this is true, then logically this same man who believed of his own FREE WILL, can fall away when he sins."

Not necessarily. It could be a one time choice. That once you agree to it then you can't disagree. Many of our choices in life are this way. If I choose to stab my friend with a fork after i do it i can't really take it back. okay that was not agreat analogy. But if my wife and I choose to have a baby and we go through with it then I am a daddy. i can't change that. If i divorce my wife, kill the child or kill myself I am always the father of the child.

So I do not see that there is anything illogical about it. Now is it backed up by scripture? That is something that we can look at but I do not see it as illogical.

"Which then becomes a gospel of faith in Christ + my faith which equals my salvation.

Now they have a gospel of WORKS, to their own damnation."

Only if having faith is a work. I would say it is not. Even Calvinist believe that we must believe and have faith in Christ in order to be saved. We do not need to be a part of the elect but salvation yes. But election does not = salvation. All the elect will be saved but the terms do not mean the same thing.

"These that are "no longer under condemnatio" have been saved according to the above passage, are no longer under the law of MOSES, but are set free from these as the apostle previously stated in;"

True when we are saved there is no longer any condemnation.

"Those that have been saved by GRACE THRU FAITH live now unto a higher law; the "law of the spirit in CHRIST JESUS"

There is the Leter of the Law; and the Spirit of the Law.
Gods children are called to live a life in the Spirit of the Law.

One can't unless he first sees the great thruth, that it is GOD who sets us free, not to bring back into bondage under the law, but serve him freely, and glofrify him for this perfect work of GRACE.

This is the reason why HE sets his people FREE.

WE ARE NOW FULLY EQUIPED TO LIVE A LIFE PLEASING TO GOD."

That works either way though for the verses you quoted. You are assuming unconditional election (in a Calvinistic way) in these verses.

I think the 2 real questions here are.

1. Regeneration- How far are we regenerated before we have faith.

2. Conditional vs. unconditional election.

Bh

ScottEmerson · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart

Sorry,

I thought you said we were arguing.

Argumentation is the art of debate.

There is no argument, if we can rightly see and divide the word of truth.

Click to expand...

So is one of us lying?

My advice is file all those commentaries and help books in the attic and only refer to them when you want to know what MANS opinions are.

The pure word is able to make one WISE unto salvation.

Click to expand...

Might I offer a critique then? I would like some more Scriptures from you in response to what I say. Believe it or not, but I AM using the WORD, whether you want to believe it or not. I do read Greek, so I hope that's okay.

Lion Heart · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk

Not necessarily. It could be a one time choice. That once you agree to it then you can't disagree.

NOW WERE MOVING FOREWARD, I SAY SEARCH IT OUT IN THE SCRITURES.

Only if having faith is a work. I would say it is not. Even Calvinist believe that we must believe and have faith in Christ in order to be saved.

Click to expand...

Faith is a FREE Gift, it only becomes a work if man believes somehow or other, he produced it.

It is simple, when man states that faith is a product of his own doing, as if he could produce saving faith; in essence he is saying; I produced the faith to believe in Jesus; this contradicts the Word, which simply states "you are saved by Grace thru Faith IT IS A GIFT OF GOD". If it was produced any other way, that is boasting, and for sure does not glorify GOD.

Why because that man makes God a LIAR.

1. Regeneration- How far are we regenerated before we have faith.

Bh

Click to expand...

Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

My own opinion is Titus gives us a glimpse into the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" spoken of by Mt3:11, MK1:8 and Lk 3:16.

As for regenration??

My nearest answer is; Only God Knows, I believe he saves everyone exactly the same way, no special programs.

I can't answer this question beyond what it says here in the following verse.

John 3 Jesus speaking;
8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Good questions, don't take my answers as the gospel, but trust Him who promises;

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Blessings

RICHARD

Reformationist · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
It is just that God through previent grace makes it possible for all men to choose or reject Him.

One of the big problems I see with this belief is that it puts too much emphasis on the decision that we will make. This is the crucial foundation of Eph 2:8,9. Even if you gave God the credit for bringing you to a place that allowed you to make "the decision" you are still attributing your salvation to you choosing to follow God. I know that the Bible tells us that the changes that come about in us are a sign that the Spirit dwells in us, i.e. the fruits of the Spirit. I know that faith without works is of no benefit. For those of you who believe in the doctrine of previent grace please ask yourself who exactly you are ultimately giving the credit for your salvation. Was it God's unmerited grace, and thus you could not boast, or, was it because God brought you, and everyone else, to a place where you could make the decision and thus, your salvation is a result of your choice, and therefore you can boast about it.

Even Calvinist believe that we must believe and have faith in Christ in order to be saved.

The way you say this is a little misleading Blackhawk. Calvinism states that faith is a result of God's work in someone He has elected for salvation. Whether faith is the result of salvation or the vehicle that God uses to enact His Will is of no consequence when you understand that regardless of when we receive that saving grace it is God who gives it to us. It is not a remnant of our pre-fall selves. We can do no good apart from God (Mark 10:18; Luke 6:43; Rom 3:12, 7:18; 1 Cor 5:6; James 1:17).

But election does not = salvation. All the elect will be saved but the terms do not mean the same thing.

This is true but it's more an issue of semantics. Saying they are not the same is kind of like saying that being born does not = going to die. The two terms are inseparable, and though they don't mean exactly the same thing, as you can be of the elect but not yet saved, they do have the same connotations.

I think the 2 real questions here are.

1. Regeneration- How far are we regenerated before we have faith.

2. Conditional vs. unconditional election.

Bh

1. - I don't believe God does things halfway. Additionally, as I do not believe the purpose of our salvation to be our glory, but rather His glory He would not sit in suspense (metaphorically) as we make our decision.

2. - I believe the Bible clearly states that our salvation is unmerited and therefore unconditional.

God bless.

ScottEmerson · May 28, 2002

Ephesians 2:8-9 says "It is by grace we have been saved through faith - not of ourselves, but it is a gift from God, not by works so that no one can boast."

Looking at the Greek, there is a division between gift (doron) and pistis (faith) and charis (grace) with the use of the conjunction "and," or kai. Because this separation is there, it is unclear whether grace is a gift from God or faith is a gift from God.

Because grammatically we are unable to determine what the gift is, we must examine the context of the sentence...

Two main points:

1. In the passage before, Paul is speaking of grace. The immediate verse before states, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. " In verse four Paul mentions mercy. He mentions faith only that one time in this chapter. In the context of the chapter, then, it seems that Paul almost adds "by faith" as an aside...

2. ...which leads to the second point. He immediately says, "not of works, so that no one can boast." The opposite of being saved by works is being saved by grace (See Ephesians 2:5). Works would seem to be ours, while whatever Paul is referring to is the gift from God. Since it can be seen that it is grace that saves us (Paul specifically states such), it follows that it is grace that is the gift - not faith in this passage.

Therefore, even those who state that God gave us the chance to choose Him can recognize God's sovereignty and a complete gift from Him - it's not of ourselves. The difference is that we believe that God offers this gift to all, since He wishes that no man should perish.

Lion Heart · May 28, 2002

Scott,

Gal 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh ?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith ?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness .
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham .

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith .
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law .

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What Law? vs 27 "THE LAW OF FAITH "

Rom 4
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

What work do you want to perform? for the gift of GRACE?

Rom 4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

RICHARD

ScottEmerson · May 28, 2002

Also to my attention:

In the Greek text of this passage, there is only one pronoun, not two: and that pronoun doesn't agree gramatically with the word "faith." The pronounin neuter in gender, while the word faith is feminine. According to all grammatical rules, the gift cannot be faith!

ScottEmerson · May 28, 2002

Richard, we agree that faith is required to be saved. The verses you posted clearly say so. However, in the verses you post, "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe," belief occurs first! It seems that belief is required FIRST to have faith. What quickens belief according to the Calvinist doctrine?

In Ephesians, the gift Paul speaks of is still grace, not faith.

Lion Heart · May 28, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
Richard, we agree that faith is required to be saved. The verses you posted clearly say so. However, in the verses you post, "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe," belief occurs first! It seems that belief is required FIRST to have faith. What quickens belief according to the Calvinist doctrine?

In Ephesians, the gift Paul speaks of is still grace, not faith.

Scott,

I have no idea; I don't subscribe to Calvinism, I simply agree with the point of Unconditional Election, this would hardly make me a Calvinist;

I think I wrote about this; on one of these threads.

Richard

Lion Heart · May 29, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
Richard, we agree that faith is required to be saved. The verses you posted clearly say so. However, in the verses you post, "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe," belief occurs first! It seems that belief is required FIRST to have faith. What quickens belief according to the Calvinist doctrine?

In Ephesians, the gift Paul speaks of is still grace, not faith.

Scott,

I perceive you are of the Arminian persuasion, as you speak of some kind of works, and faith according to you is not necessarily a gift of Grace.

I don't pay any attention to Arminius or Calvin, I understand their positions and thats about it, both have weak points, some good some not so good in both sides.

I've quoted verses, let me give them to you again.

Gal 3
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You are correct belief produces faith.

Blessings

Richard

Blackhawk · May 29, 2002

"One of the big problems I see with this belief is that it puts too much emphasis on the decision that we will make. This is the crucial foundation of Eph 2:8,9. Even if you gave God the credit for bringing you to a place that allowed you to make "the decision" you are still attributing your salvation to you choosing to follow God."

But that is Biblical. How are we able to choose to believe God and can we choose not to believe God is where the difference is.

"Was it God's unmerited grace, and thus you could not boast, or, was it because God brought you, and everyone else, to a place where you could make the decision and thus, your salvation is a result of your choice, and therefore you can boast about it."

I do not see how I could boast about receiving a present. The only thing I could boast about would be that God thought enough about me that He gave me this present. That is all.

"The way you say this is a little misleading Blackhawk. Calvinism states that faith is a result of God's work in someone He has elected for salvation. Whether faith is the result of salvation or the vehicle that God uses to enact His Will is of no consequence when you understand that regardless of when we receive that saving grace it is God who gives it to us. It is not a remnant of our pre-fall selves. We can do no good apart from God (Mark 10:18; Luke 6:43; Rom 3:12, 7:18; 1 Cor 5:6; James 1:17)."

but this is true either way. In each way God changes you so that you can accept Him. I can't do it by myself. But can we reject God? And does God give grace enough for all to be saved but gives us a choice or does He limit the people He gives this kind of grace to and those always choose Him? So I see that it really revolves around Limited atonement and Irresistable grace.

"This is true but it's more an issue of semantics. Saying they are not the same is kind of like saying that being born does not = going to die. The two terms are inseparable, and though they don't mean exactly the same thing, as you can be of the elect but not yet saved, they do have the same connotations."

I understand that they are inseperable but stillI think it is important to know that they are not the smae things. It is important because believing in God is necessary for salvation but possibly not for election. Salvation is definitely conditional but how do we get these conditions is the issue.

"1. - I don't believe God does things halfway. Additionally, as I do not believe the purpose of our salvation to be our glory, but rather His glory He would not sit in suspense (metaphorically) as we make our decision."

God knows from the Beggining of time in both ways. So he is not sitting and waiting for us to make up our minds. I think that He knows what we will choose and basis our election on that. He does not have to see us making these choices. I think He just knows. I think this is a mystery.

"2. - I believe the Bible clearly states that our salvation is unmerited and therefore unconditional. "

unmerited does not equal unconditioanl. God states that we must believe in order to be saved. Look at Romans 10:9,10 and 13. Or John 3:16.

As far as election goes it could be conditional or unconditional. I am looking through and studying scriptures now to see what I think about the ULI in TULIP. I have nonreformed views now but as I have said before RC Sproul brought up some very good points in which I will have to ponder some more.

Oh and If I did not understand what you were trying to say I apologise now. I know we have had some issues because we have not understood each other's language.

BH

Reformationist · May 29, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
But that is Biblical.

What is Biblical?

How are we able to choose to believe God and can we choose not to believe God is where the difference is.

Regardless of the affiliation of an individual's viewpoint to either the Calvinistic position or the Arminian position, both acknowledge that prior to God's intervention man is unable to make the saving decision for themselves. I think the real difference is whether you believe that God frees everybody, at some point, from their fallen nature and allows them to "responsibly" make the decision or that the catalyst for salvation is the effectual call of God. Either way, God must intervene into the lives of the fallen because they would never choose Him of their own accord.

I do not see how I could boast about receiving a present. The only thing I could boast about would be that God thought enough about me that He gave me this present. That is all.

That's not what I said. I said if God gave you that "free gift" based upon the choice you did/would make then it was based upon the merit of the recipient's decision rather than God's purpose for that individual. It is no longer unmerited grace but a reward for the "correct response" to the beckoning of the Holy Spirit. Then an individual could, and would, feasibly boast about making the "right choice" that led to their salvation. And that is not Biblical.

In each way God changes you so that you can accept Him.

So that you CAN accept Him. You said it all right there.

But can we reject God?

The question isn't whether we can reject God. The question is whether or not it is God's Will that some reject Him. Nothing happens outside the Will of God. If it does happen, no matter what it is, it was His Will that it happened. We, as humans, have a tendency to separate the bad things that happen in this world from God's Will because we feel that it is inconsistant with our idea of who God is. It is difficult to understand that His purpose in bringing about something that we see as tragic is to sanctify His children. If something happens and a person thinks it was not God's Will that it happen then they are, in effect, saying that something occured that was not part of God's divine plan, and therefore, not in His power to stop. We are a creation. When we disobey God it is not that we are staving off the power of the Lord. God is bringing our sinfulness to light that we may learn from our disobedience. Sometimes we do, most times we don't. God is faithful, even in our unfaithfulness. He never says, "I've told you over and over again not to do that. I give up." Did you ever notice that when something difficult comes about in your life and you don't stop to ask God what it is that He wants you to learn from the situation you have a much greater propensity for responding in a sinful way? What ends up happening? Most likely God will bring about another situation in your life that requires that you trust Him in the midsts of that situation. Did you ever notice that when you respond in godliness, no matter the hardship, it isn't nearly as hard to deal with, nor do you seem to have that situation, or a similar situation, repeat itself in your life?

It's not about rejecting God. It's about obedience. Saved can be, but aren't always, obedient. Unsaved people can only be disobedient. For the record, when I say "saved" and "unsaved" people I am not talking about whether someone has said a "sinner's prayer" or been "baptized." I'm talking about God regenerating the heart of a person which leads to those things. That is salvation.

And does God give grace enough for all to be saved but gives us a choice

Well, are all saved? If not then either being saved isn't our choice, or, the grace wasn't intended for everyone. Otherwise, you are saying that God just puts out a blanket call to anyone out there and He is subject to our will based upon what we'll choose. Oh, He can try and "woo" us but in reality, if we persist He has no power to change us. It's totally up to us. I think after God saves us it's partially up to us how long it will take us to learn to be obedient. Not whether we'll be conformed to the image of righteousness, but how difficult we'll make it on ourselves. However, God is even using our disobedience to teach us to trust Him.

or does He limit the people He gives this kind of grace to and those always choose Him?

Always, everytime, without exception.

So I see that it really revolves around Limited atonement and Irresistable grace.

They are inseparable.

It is important because believing in God is necessary for salvation but possibly not for election.

Not "possibly not," DEFINITELY not. The elect are elected, or chosen, when they didn't believe.

Salvation is definitely conditional but how do we get these conditions is the issue.

Yes. This is one of the major points of disagreement. There is nothing righteous about us. Even our ability to choose righteousness is a result of God's righteousness at work in our lives.

God knows from the Beggining of time in both ways. So he is not sitting and waiting for us to make up our minds. I think that He knows what we will choose and basis our election on that.

Our election is not based on what we will choose. But you're right in the sense that God knows "what we will choose." He knows that, if not for His intervention, not one, single person would ever choose to follow Him. On that note, let me ask you, "if God did not do anything to change us, what would man have done? Would some have chosen Him despite their fallen nature?" I don't think the answer to that is a mystery.

unmerited does not equal unconditioanl.

Agreed. Let me rephrase it. The salvation of God's elect is not based upon any merit found in us but rather upon the righteousness of Christ.

Oh and If I did not understand what you were trying to say I apologise now. I know we have had some issues because we have not understood each other's language.BH

No issues brother. Other than maybe I don't get to converse with you as much as I'd like.

God bless.

Lion Heart · May 29, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
"One of the big problems I see with this belief is that it puts too much emphasis on the decision that we will make. This is the crucial foundation of Eph 2:8,9. Even if you gave God the credit for bringing you to a place that allowed you to make "the decision" you are still attributing your salvation to you choosing to follow God."

BH

BH

I believe that when one misplaces the understanding of the object of the belief you refer to above, he goes down another road, deviating from scripture.

I think I see this clearly as the problem many have and thats why they wrestle with scripture and can never seem to grasp the assurance which comes with knowning God not only has saved but keeps them from the evil one, so long as they walk in the light..

couple of verses;

2 Th 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Heb 10
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

"From the begining chosen you to Salvation through sanctification of the Spirit"

How sweet these words are, to Gods children.

another one;

1 Pet 1
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

You give man to much credit, God is even gracious, he gives man credit, "for obeying the truth," and thus "he has purified his soul, in obeying it.

The truth is,

2 Th 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved .
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The natural man is incapable of submitting himself to Gods will, before God can work in his heart, he must believe what God says about him, that he is a sinner, in need of repentance for his sin; and that it's not Gods will that he perish in his sin.

This is all man is able to do, believe he is a sinner, and unless he repents he will perish in his sin, that God has provided a blood sacrifice to pay the debt owed by his sin, and that Jesus is the one who has redeemed him from the death to come.

Must he know all these things, I think he has to consciously, acknowledge to God a belief in agreemnt with God that, What God says is true.

Especially, that he is a sinner who has sinned against God, that is going to perish in sin, unless he repents; it's only when this man confesses this to God that God can finally draw him to believe in the Son, the end result is saving faith a work of the Spirit, in Christs finished work on the cross;

This is no small matter, God seeks a broken spirit and a contrite heart.

1 Pet 1
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Which is also the begining of a lifelong walk of faith for;

The Just shall live by faith.

Please read the verses in there context, I've only posted the verse which address the subject of belief.

RICHARD

Isa 1
18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Blackhawk · May 30, 2002

Reformanist,

"What is Biblical?"

This is what I was reffering to.

"...you are still attributing your salvation to you choosing to follow God"

WE are saved because we choose to believe and we confess. (Romans 10:9,10 and 13) But again how are we able to believe? How are we able to confess? That is the question. But it is stil me believing and cofessing. Maybe this was kind of nit picky. I am just trying to seperate exactly where we are different.

"Regardless of the affiliation of an individual's viewpoint to either the Calvinistic position or the Arminian position, both acknowledge that prior to God's intervention man is unable to make the saving decision for themselves. I think the real difference is whether you believe that God frees everybody, at some point, from their fallen nature and allows them to "responsibly" make the decision or that the catalyst for salvation is the effectual call of God. Either way, God must intervene into the lives of the fallen because they would never choose Him of their own accord."

I agree 120% That is where we differ. I am saying that God makes it possible for all to choose. That He gives all a chance at salvation but we can reject Him. You are saying that He gives only some the chance at salvation and they will not reject Jesus' effectual call because God is irresistable. So I see the real argument being about

1. How far are we regenerated before belief?
2. Can we resist God's call to salvation?

I think that #2 will be answered if we answer #1. They kind of just go together.

Also i see this question.

3. How does God choose His elect? and who are they?

Thsi also goes with the other 2 but not so cleanly. But I see it as an important question and difference between us.

I can't think of any other really. I believe in OSAS. I believe in total depravity also. It mostly all comes down to when and how much does God regenerate us.

"That's not what I said. I said if God gave you that "free gift" based upon the choice you did/would make then it was based upon the merit of the recipient's decision rather than God's purpose for that individual. It is no longer unmerited grace but a reward for the "correct response" to the beckoning of the Holy Spirit. Then an individual could, and would, feasibly boast about making the "right choice" that led to their salvation. And that is not Biblical."

Yeah I understand what you said. I just do not see how one can boast just about receiving a gift. Do I boast because I accept a gift one my Birthday? No especially if I do not deserve the gift at all. I understand what you are saying but I do not see accepting a gift as something that is worthy of boasting.

"So that you CAN accept Him. You said it all right there. "

Yes I can't accept Him on my own. I need His help. If not then I will never accept Him. "No one seeks after God."

"The question isn't whether we can reject God. The question is whether or not it is God's Will that some reject Him."

correct. I misspoke. I agree that whatever is God's plan for salvation it is within His will. It could of been differently but only because He wanted it to be so. God is sovereign and nothing i do can change His plan. So the question is Is God's plan such that we can reject Him or is it not so?

"Well, are all saved? If not then either being saved isn't our choice, or, the grace wasn't intended for everyone."

No not all is saed and I am not a universalist. God knew that some would reject Him and He did not make it so that all will be saved. He let them go to hell. He did not make them sin but it is in His will.

But God does show some grace to all. I know you believe that. The world is not as bad as it could be and we are not all in hell. Even nonbelievers are given some reprieve now. But does God give all enough grace so that they can choose to accept or reject God's salvation? That is the question.

Oh and I thought the Calvinist position that there is an outward call to everyone but only some receive the inward effectual call. Is this not so?

"Yes. This is one of the major points of disagreement. There is nothing righteous about us. Even our ability to choose righteousness is a result of God's righteousness at work in our lives."

I would say that you are right here. But you say that God's salvific call is always effectual. I say that we can reject it. But salvation is always only possible because of God's work.

"On that note, let me ask you, "if God did not do anything to change us, what would man have done? Would some have chosen Him despite their fallen nature?" I don't think the answer to that is a mystery."

No it is not. if God did not intervene none would be saved. All would continue in their sin. Heck if God di not intervene then the Earth would be hell literally. We are totally depraved and we only experience any grace because He gives it to us. I guess we would not experience any judgement if God did not intervene at all but I think that if God did not intervene then there would be nothing. if God did not hold up the earth it would fall out of orbit. Everything would be destroyed and go back to nothing unless God intervened. I am going a little far with this but I think you understand what I believe about how much God has to intervene and gives us grace in order for us to be anything.

"Agreed. Let me rephrase it. The salvation of God's elect is not based upon any merit found in us but rather upon the righteousness of Christ."

i agree. But is choosing a gift from God "merit?"

"No issues brother. Other than maybe I don't get to converse with you as much as I'd like."

cool. Let's just leave an open rule between us that we will go to eachtoher first before assuming what the other is saying and we will give each other grace.

Also I think we should gather some questions first. Once we get a set of questions that make us different from each other then we can address them. IS that cool? I think that will make things more ordered. I started with 2 above. What do you think? Once we get these questions then we can really tackle them.

blackahwk

Blackhawk · May 30, 2002

Lion heart,

I have read your post and it is very well thought out and good. I am sorry though but I can't get inot a debate with you also. Not hing against you at all but I want to get really into this with Reformanist. I have read your post and will take your arguments seriously I just do not have the time to debate y'all both in a proper way.

please accept my humble apologies.

blackahwk

Reformationist · May 30, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
This is what I was reffering to.

"...you are still attributing your salvation to you choosing to follow God"

WE are saved because we choose to believe and we confess. (Romans 10:9,10 and 13) But again how are we able to believe? How are we able to confess? That is the question. But it is stil me believing and cofessing. Maybe this was kind of nit picky. I am just trying to seperate exactly where we are different.

Actually I think you raise a good question here. But consider this: If God saves you first and then you choose to follow Him, or, if He gives you the grace necessary to believe in Him and then He uses that belief that He generated in you as a catalyst for the application of His saving grace then who is totally responsible for reconciling you to Him? Even if you feel more comfortable with the second option you must acknowledge that the entirety of the belief that resulted in your salvation was directly from Him and not something that was in you prior to His intervention. He didn't just mold the small remnant of righteousness that was left in you after the fall. There was none. Also, it would then become clear that if God gives you that belief and is responsible for it coming to fruition that He apparently does not do that for everyone.

I agree 120% That is where we differ. I am saying that God makes it possible for all to choose. That He gives all a chance at salvation but we can reject Him. You are saying that He gives only some the chance at salvation and they will not reject Jesus' effectual call because God is irresistable.

I think my difficulty with the concept of previent grace is that if salvation is something we choose in a way that is unhindered by the bondage to our sinful nature it is a result of our works.

I think it's important for me to define something here. Now we both believe salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works lest any man should boast, right? So, what happens in these types of discussions is that I say, "having faith is a work," and someone else will say, "no, it's not a work." So, what is having faith?

I would like to offer my opinion on this. I believe having faith is more than just some surrealistic raising of our hands in church and singing with tears streaming down our face. We show our faith by our works. We make an effort to live in a manner worthy of the gospel. So faith is not just believing, right? It's not just saying that Jesus is the Son of God or that He died on the Cross for us, right? Even the demons believe. True faith is when that belief causes us to change the way we respond to life. It's more than just going to church a couple of times a week. True faith is believing in God's promise so much that it causes you to examine every single response you have to everything in an effort to find and weed out your sinfulness. In that light it becomes very apparent that faith is a work. In fact, the salvation of our souls, also known as our sanctification, is a work. It is, however, God's work. Granted, we do participate. But, as the Bible tells us, He will complete the good work HE STARTED. He started it, not us.

So I see the real argument being about

1. How far are we regenerated before belief?
2. Can we resist God's call to salvation?

I think that #2 will be answered if we answer #1. They kind of just go together.

Were you wanting scriptural support for my position on this? I would be happy to post them.

How does God choose His elect? and who are they?

The closest I can give to an answer to the first part is, "according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5). As to the second part, only He knows. I would advise that we are to treat every single person we encounter as if they are the elect. The truth is, no matter how bad someone is, God can change their heart in an instant.

Yeah I understand what you said. I just do not see how one can boast just about receiving a gift. Do I boast because I accept a gift one my Birthday? No especially if I do not deserve the gift at all. I understand what you are saying but I do not see accepting a gift as something that is worthy of boasting.

This is an analogy that I have discussed numerous times. Comparing the gift of salvation to receiving a gift at a birthday party invariably results in the discussion of OSAS vs. OSNAS. The reason for this is here on earth you can give back, or even not take, a gift. I do not believe salvation to be a "gift" that you can return. With regard to your analogy, as it relates to salvation, you could only boast about receiving the gift if you claimed the reason you got it was because of your decision to have a birthday party instead of the love that the giver holds for you despite your feelings. To clear that up (if you're confused), to say that the reason you got the free gift of salvation was because of your decision to follow God rather than God's love for you despite your fallen nature that hates His righteousness you place the credit, and therefore the glory, upon yourself.

So the question is Is God's plan such that we can reject Him or is it not so?

Again, I don't think it's an issue of can we reject Him, but rather will we reject Him. And, to that, I would say yes. I think it is God's plan that some not accept Him and to accomplish this He witholds His grace and leaves them to their fallen nature.

No not all is saed and I am not a universalist. God knew that some would reject Him and He did not make it so that all will be saved. He let them go to hell. He did not make them sin but it is in His will.

I agree.

But God does show some grace to all. I know you believe that. The world is not as bad as it could be and we are not all in hell. Even nonbelievers are given some reprieve now. But does God give all enough grace so that they can choose to accept or reject God's salvation? That is the question.

Again, I agree, to your comments and as to what the question is. Well said.

Oh and I thought the Calvinist position that there is an outward call to everyone but only some receive the inward effectual call. Is this not so?

Yes, that's true.

if God did not intervene none would be saved. All would continue in their sin. Heck if God di not intervene then the Earth would be hell literally. We are totally depraved and we only experience any grace because He gives it to us. I guess we would not experience any judgement if God did not intervene at all but I think that if God did not intervene then there would be nothing. if God did not hold up the earth it would fall out of orbit. Everything would be destroyed and go back to nothing unless God intervened. I am going a little far with this but I think you understand what I believe about how much God has to intervene and gives us grace in order for us to be anything.

I don't think you are going too far at all. I think you hit it right on the mark, except that I think there would still be judgment if God did not intervene, even if it was just for us to cease to exist.

Also I think we should gather some questions first. Once we get a set of questions that make us different from each other then we can address them. IS that cool? I think that will make things more ordered. I started with 2 above. What do you think? Once we get these questions then we can really tackle them.

blackahwk

Great idea. And again, it has been a pleasure for me to discuss God with you.

God bless.

oworm · Oct 18, 2008

Blackhawk said:
Reformationist,

I know I just said I would stay out of it but these verses intrigued me. How do you intepret them? I think they are hard verses for both sides of the coin. (really I am asking about verse 22)

1Cr 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

here is the greek word for all.

3956 pas {pas}

including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj

AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31,
everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11,
no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6,
whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2,
any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Now 2 interpretations I think we can throw out.

1. universal salvation. - the all can't mean all people in the world in the second part because that would mean that everyone is saved. I think this goes directly against other parts of the Bible which I will not go into since we both do not believe it.

2. all did not die in Adam.- We all did die. This again goes against the Bible in toher parts. We defintitely all fell and that is why we need a savior. This one has less credibility than the first one.

Oaky so how do we interpret it? I think we can say for a fact that all died in Adam but who is 2nd all referring to in the scripture?

I think verse 23 has a lot to say about what he is talking about and have read it a few times and read the JFB and Matthew Henry commentary on it and even in the greek but I am not really convinced by their arguments about what it means.

1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Cr 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

what do you think it means?

blackhawk

edit: I put this in its own thread because it seemed out of place where it was

This is a great thread and worthy of perusal

Reformationist 1Cor 15:22

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