The things priests will not tell you.

Hi there

I hope you are well

thereselittleflower said:

A stained glass window, when viewed from the outside in broad daylight gives the impression of complication as well, and ugliness even . .

One's perspective is everything . .

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Yes. true.

I think thats why we should try to reach God's perspective on all issues, for:
Isaiah 55:9 NIV
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Only God sees the true picture. By prayer/ seeking the Lord we can begin to see what God sees. He does not look at the outer appearance, but on the heart.

thereselittleflower said:

The Christian faith is simple . . but it is not simplistic . . .

Unfortunately, many here are conviced that looking at the stained glass window from the outside is enough and they can judge very accurately how it looks from the other side without ever once bothering to really try to see it from the inside . .

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Therese, maybe different denominations suit different people?

thereselittleflower said:

Yes .. but what does it mean to call upon the name of the Lord?

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In my experience, 'Jesus, help me' as indeed from the bible:

Matthew 20:31 NIV
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

thereselittleflower said:

And there are scritpures that say if we believe and are baptized we will be saved . . . Calling on the name of the Lord, Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" is all part of the baptismal process . . It is more than just saying something with our mouths . . it is obeying, for if we say that Jesus is Lord yet refuse to obey, then are we saved?

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Baptism from the Greek just means immersion. Is it talking about immersion in water or the equally biblical immersion or baptism in the Holy SPirit? Or just immersion into faith by saying Jesus name and the connotations of it?

Acts 19Paul in Ephesus



1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

thereselittleflower said:

I do not believe in once saved always saved . . the scriptures do not teach this . . It is a process . . one of Grace . .

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I believe in OSAS.

I dont think God will throw anyone out, Indeed, in the Prodigal Son the father was happy to see the Son!

John 10:28 NIV
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

I dont think anyone can steal us out of Jesus' care.

And, on the issue of leaving salvation.

Why would anyone who had seen and lived in the palace with Christ want to go back and live in a pile of pig poop?

Philippians 3:8 NIV
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them dung, that I may gain Christ

thereselittleflower said:

The Catholic Church believes that we are saved by Grace, that our hearts response to God's grace must be in faith and good works, in obdience to Christ.

Nothing is done of our own ability, our own effort outside of God's Divine Sanctifying Grace . . For, whether it is believing in our hearts, confessing with our mouths, or acting in obdedience to Christ, all must be done in and through God's Grace.


Peace

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I believe I am an adopted child of God though Jesus Christ and can call God abba father.

Matthew 7:11 NIV
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more..........

I dont know any father who would burn their child alive because of mis-understanding some jargon. How much less would God condemn us? God is not trying to comdemn us, he's our Father!

God bless

Lismore

lismore said:

Hi there

I hope you are well

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As I do you.

Yes. true.

I think thats why we should try to reach God's perspective on all issues, for:
Isaiah 55:9 NIV
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Only God sees the true picture. By prayer/ seeking the Lord we can begin to see what God sees. He does not look at the outer appearance, but on the heart.

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Amen.

Therese, maybe different denominations suit different people?

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Oh absolutely. That is why so many different denominations exist, because they each suit different people . . .

That is a subject in and of itself that we could go way into . . .

But that was not what I was aiming at . . but the judgement of the Catholic faith by outward appearances that are not understood . .

In my experience, 'Jesus, help me' as indeed from the bible:

Matthew 20:31 NIV
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

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This, or "Jesus have mercy on me a sinner", is referred to as "The Jesus" prayer in Catholicism.

Baptism from the Greek just means immersion. Is it talking about immersion in water or the equally biblical immersion or baptism in the Holy SPirit? Or just immersion into faith by saying Jesus name and the connotations of it?

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Immersion in water when speaking about Baptism in keeping with Jesus command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We can know this for certain from the clear evidence and teaching of the Early Church.

Acts 19Paul in Ephesus

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

​

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They were baptized in water then they received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands (This is where we get the sacrament of Confirmation from . . the receiving of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands by the Bishops)

I believe in OSAS.

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I understand . I used to too . .

I dont think God will throw anyone out, Indeed, in the Prodigal Son the father was happy to see the Son!

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Do you believe in universal reconcilliation then?

John 10:28 NIV
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

I dont think anyone can steal us out of Jesus' care.

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No . . no one can take us out of His hand . .

But this says nothing about us not being able to voluntarily leave His hand . .

"Snatching" "Stealing" refers to an outside force snatching/stealing us away from Christ . . That cannot happen for then God is not all powerful . .

But "snatching/stealing" does not at all refer to what we can do ourselves of our own free will . .


We can choose to quit following Christ . . .

If we are "once saved always saved" what is there to work out "with fear and trembling" ?

Why are there so many conditions put on our salvation in scripture?

And, on the issue of leaving salvation.

Why would anyone who had seen and lived in the palace with Christ want to go back and live in a pile of pig poop?

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Why would they? But if they could not, why would Paul take such great pains to tell us that those who do crucify Christ afresh?

Obviously we can . . .

Paul himself tells us, in tears, of those who had worked closesly with him who had become the enemies of Christ.

Who would want to? Offenses can cause us to turn from Christ . . . temptations can cause us to turn from Christ . . otherwise, there is no need to perservere . .

We must never be so pressumptuous to think that we can never do what these former ministers with Paul had done . .become the enemies of Christ.

Philippians 3:8 NIV
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them dung, that I may gain Christ

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Look carefully . . . "that I may gain Christ" . . .

What did he have to still gain if once saved always saved?

Obviously, he was very aware that he could still stumble and fall away . . .

I believe I am an adopted child of God though Jesus Christ and can call God abba father.

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Yes . . but whether you stay such is up to you . .

Matthew 7:11 NIV
If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more..........

I dont know any father who would burn their child alive because of mis-understanding some jargon.

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Neither do I lismore

How much less would God condemn us? God is not trying to comdemn us, he's our Father!

God bless

Lismore

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Yes . . It is not what God is trying to do, but what we choose to do . . .



Peace

J21 said:

An argument that refutes Moses' Seat as being found nowhere in Scripture:
Here is Moses' Seat in the Old Testament: "It came about the next day that Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood about Moses from the morning until the evening. Now when Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, "What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge and all the people stand about you from morning until evening?" Moses said to his father-in-law, "Because the people come to me to inquire of God. "When they have a dispute, it comes to me, and I judge between a man and his neighbor and make known the statutes of God and His laws." Moses’ father-in-law said to him, "The thing that you are doing is not good. "You will surely wear out, both yourself and these people who are with you, for the task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. "Now listen to me: I will give you counsel, and God be with you. You be the people’s representative before God, and you bring the disputes to God, then teach them the statutes and the laws, and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do. "Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. "Let them judge the people at all times; and let it be that every major dispute they will bring to you, but every minor dispute they themselves will judge. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you. "If you do this thing and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all these people also will go to their place in peace." So Moses listened to his father-in-law and did all that he had said. Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens. They judged the people at all times; the difficult dispute they would bring to Moses, but every minor dispute they themselves would judge. Then Moses bade his father-in-law farewell, and he went his way into his own land." (Exodus 18:13-27)

So Moses' seat was where Moses applied the Law of God to the people in judgment.
Taken from: http://www.bible.ca/sola-scriptura-pro-tradition-moses-seat-matthew-23-2.htm
The rest of this particular argument is well worth looking at with re to the Catholic hierachy [ not sure if I spelt the last correctly ]

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Actually, I appreciated that explanation being given . . .it is the most nterestting attempt I have seen of someone trying to explain Moses' Seat from the Old Testament scripture . .

But there are problems with this explanation . . and they are significant.

Fist, Moses Seat, as used by Jesus, is not referring to a judicial court system, but to the authority of those who teach and guide and place religious requirements upon the Jewish people at the time of Christ.

What you, and the site you have quoted from, are referring to is simply a judicial court system, nothing more . .

To claim that the 70 sat somehow in Moses' Seat even when deciding court cases, would be the same as saying that a county judge sits in the seat of a supreme court justice . .

That makes no sense . ..

They did not sit in Moses' seat, Moses still sat in His own seat, but he simply delegated some of the judicial responsibility to others to share in the load . . They did not sit with his authority, but with their own authority given them by Moses, with Moses sitting over them. They sat in their own seats legitimately given to them by Moses. Even in the book of Judges, where they continued with this authority, you do not find any reference to them sitting in Moses' Seat.

In fact, there is no reference to this until after the scribes and the Pharisees arose, just a few hundred years before Christ. The understanding that the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses' Seat did not come from scripture, but Jewish Sacred Tradition that developed at that time. This is what Jesus used as the authoritative teaching upon which He based His teaching.

So no, this explanation cannot suffice for "Moses' Seat" referred to by Jesus. Jesus was referring to the teaching and legislative authority of the scribes and Pharisees . . not to those who simply decide civil cases based on law.


We find nothing in the Old Testament that speaks Moses' Seat referred to by Jesus.

I have not yet met an ex-catholic who can explain the Catholic faith to me correctly . . so you will tend to get a very biased and unbalanced viewpoint most likely.

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Of course, there is the possibility that there would be some who would be truthful and therefore Christlike in their explanation of the Catholic faith...or would it simply be that they are no longer capable of that attitude because according to the Catholic church, they are no longer under the influence of Christ but the influence of His adversary?

Shalom

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J21, perhaps you should read what I said again . .. I have not yet met an ex-catholic who can explain the Catholic faith to me correctly . .

Now, you would accuse us of demonizing them simply because I said this?


Do you not believe that one can be influenced by both Christ and the devil at the same time?

Do you not beleive that one can be influenced by both truth and error at the same time?


Are you infallible? You have told me you are not . . . so you must recognize in yourself that even though you are influenced to some degree by truth, that at the same time you are also being influenced by error . . .


Also, unless you are perfect in your christian walk with our Lord, then you must also recognize that even while you are being influenced by Christ, you can also be influenced by His advesary . . .


Perhaps it would be better to refrain from aming such black and white, either/or, statements as you did above . . . they can be easily misunderstood and taken as very offensive . . .


Peace

TLF: Do you not believe that one can be influenced by both Christ and the devil at the same time?

Do you not beleive that one can be influenced by both truth and error at the same time?

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Not at the same time, no. At different times yes, but never at the same time.
Would a de-frocked Priest be able to explain all about the Catholic church...or would they be negated from being able to do this due to their mistakes? Or an ex-Nun?
Just wondering.


Quote Lismore : Philippians 3:8 NIV
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them dung, that I may gain Christ

Thereselittleflower :
Look carefully . . . "that I may gain Christ" . . . What did he have to still gain if once saved always saved?

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Do you not think Therese that Paul was referrring to gaining the absolute 'full measure' of Christ and the 'perfection' of Christ, which we always strive for....the prize?
I believe Paul clarifies this statement contextually in the rest of the Philipians 3 chapter.
Shalom

J21 said:

As opposed to those still within the faith, who would no doubt be absolutely perfect in rendering the doctrines to an inquirer?

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We have never said this or claimed it . . And of course, this isn't true, or those who became ex-catholics would be able to give an absolutely prefect rendering of the doctrines.

How did I know that this, as you posted, would be the answer!
Of course! They are EX-Catholics...therefore they wouln't have left the church if they had TRULY known the doctrines, would they?

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As crazy as this sounds to you, we do not believe that most would choose to leave the truth . .

There couldn't be any other possibility except that,[ for a practicing Catholic, anyway] could there?
Shalom

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There are many reasons that could lead one to consider leaving the Church, all of which have something to do with how one understands the Catholic faith . . . that is undeniable as the evidence demonstrates . .

For when it push comes to shove, every ex-Catholic I have ever met has never been able to explain the Catholic faith to me correctly . . .

This is quite stunning actually . . . and those who are ex-Catholics do not like to be told they don't understand the faith they have rejected . . . but that is the way things stand . .


Peace

J21 said:

Therefore, isn't the Catechism of the Catholic church, of which you yourself state you weren't very well 'catechized', a 'stumbling block' that has the power to trip up people who wish to follow the Lord?
There is no 'stumbling block' in the simple Word of God as given by Him to all His believers, the Holy Bible.

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That is not true J21

Jesus is a rock of offense . . those who do not stumble on Him will be crushed . .

There are many stumbling blocks in scripture . .the Word of God, the scriptures, are anything but simple.

If they were so simple, then there would not be such a multitude of Protestant denominations all believing different things . .

The reality stands against your claims above. .


Peace

J21 said:

The 'simplicity' I was referring to comes through all versions of God's Holy Bible...
not 'doctrinal' truths, but 'spiritual' truths...

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J21 you are making a false distinction here . . By definition, the doctrinal truths of the Catholic Church are indeed spiritual truths . . they can be nothing other than spiritual truths . .

the simple Truths of...
God as the Divine Creator Power and Authority over all
Jesus as the Son of God, came to earth as a man and was given as the Final atoning sacrifice for mans' sin
Jesus died on the Cross, was placed in a tomb for 3 days and on the 3rd day, rose again.
'Whosoever believes in Him [the risen Christ] shall not perish but have everlasting life.'
There is only one way to the Father [God] and that is through the Son [ Jesus]
This Gift of redemption from our sins was given freely by our Lord and when we believe this, through faith in Him, we are led by the Holy Spirit, whom He gives each believer, to live our lives in a way that brings Glory to Him.

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These are doctrinal truths of the Catholic Church . . .so what is your point?

None of these Truths will be a stumbling block to one seeking the Truth of Christ.

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Of course they will be a stumbling block, until one understands these truths . .

Just because one is seeking the truth does not mean they won't stumble over it until they learn to recognize it and embrace it. . .

Many are like my husband who was one like those you referred to who did not see...
the 'doctrinal' teaching got in his way for all those years...but he has 'seen' now the 'simplified' message of the 'basic spiritual truth'
Shalom

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Then he never "saw" the true doctrine of the Catholic Church . . but some flawed version of it . . .

Sorry, but I given what you have had to say about the Catholic Church in this thread, it is very doubtful your husband ever had a right understanding of our Doctrines . . .


Peace

lismore said:

Not really

Everyone brings baggage with them. Jewsish converts wont bring bhuddist baggage with them, but Jewish

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Of course,. but that isn't the definition of a Judiazer either . .

A judiazer is one who actively engages in promoting the teaching that Christians must keep the Judaic law to be saved . .

Most Jewish Converts gave up keeping the Judaic law to be saved, they welcomed the full Gospel of Christ fully . . but a small group tried to insist that one must keep the Judaic law too . .

James book was not specifically addressed to judiazers, but to Jewish converts at alarge, and so his words were addressed to believers in general.

It makes no sense to claim that this book was written to Judiazers, for if it was, it would be more apt to encourage them than discourage them and then be at odds with the Gospel . . .

But this was not its intended audience, but it seems its intended audience was those who were more likely to fall into the other error, that of believing we do not need works at all for salvation . . that all we have to do is simply believe, but have no evidence of that faith in our actions towards others . .

Those are not judiazers .. those are the opposite of judiazers . .

My point that the things James talks about taming the tongues, favoritism etc are things everyone is guilty of. If you are justified by keeping these then all are doomed.

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He doesn't say we are justified by good works apart from faith . . it is not an either/or thing for James or the Catholic Church . .

It is a BOTH/AND issue . . .

Some denominations have institutional favoritism and institutional talking codswallop.

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codswallop? That is a new one on me . . do I dare ask ? ? ?


Peace

lismore said:

Hi Theres

Thanks for your message and your concern

I thought I would get the views of both catholics and ex catholics because I was praying about this and God said:

Leviticus 13:46 NIV
As long as he has the infection he remains unclean. He must live alone; he must live outside the camp.


Jesus was taken outside the camp to be sin for us.

There is something to be said for 'outside the camp'

Lismore

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Lismore, the reason to study disease is to learn about the disease and how to avoid it or cure it . .

We do not go to the disease to learn how to be healthy except in how the disease would impact our health . . .

We go to the healthy to learn about what it is like to be healthy


Peace

J21 said:

Quote

Philippians 3:8 NIV
What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them dung, that I may gain Christ

Do you not think Therese that Paul was referrring to gaining the absolute 'full measure' of Christ and the 'perfection' of Christ, which we always strive for....the prize?
I believe Paul clarifies this statement contextually in the rest of the Philipians 3 chapter.
Shalom

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What happens if we do not gain Christ J21?



Peace

thereselittleflower said:

What happens if we do not gain Christ J21?
Peace

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Then we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven ...we will be lost.
I have, if you note, never stated my position on OSAS. I was just referring to the contextual interpretation of the text put forward.

J21 : or would it simply be that they are no longer capable of that attitude because according to the Catholic church, they are no longer under the influence of Christ but the influence of His adversary?
TLF:Now, you would accuse us of demonizing them simply because I said this?

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My answer to your question is " No."
Pertaining to my original question in quotation above ; Since when has a question mark at the end of a question that is asked, be an accusation? Your simple answer could have been, "No, that is not correct" instead of making it out to be something it wasn't, just as my response to your subsequent question was " No".
Shalom

lismore said:

Why would anyone who had seen and lived in the palace with Christ want to go back and live in a pile of pig poop?

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This is a question that we could quite easily ask of Adam and Eve

VNVnation said:

This is a question that we could quite easily ask of Adam and Eve

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No we cant.

They didnt know thats where they were going until they got there.

We at least know whats outside of Jesus Christ: as the Apostle Paul said its dung!

thereselittleflower said:

They were baptized in water then they received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands (This is where we get the sacrament of Confirmation from . . the receiving of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands by the Bishops)

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Im not sure what you mean by the sacrament of confirmation, but I have received the baptism of the holy spirit and therefore have spoken in manifold tongues as the spirit enabled. But In my case it was more like the acts 2 experience- I have never met a bishop

Cornelius had his the other way round, Holy SPirit and then Baptism. In his case also without the laying on of hands.




Dont forget, Salvation is Jesus work in us . What he started he will see through to its completion.

I dont worrying about running away from salvation- to me this is an oxymoron. The Hebrew yasha can mean a place of security.

Are you worried that one day you might want to run away from Jesus?

God Bless

Lismore