Do Catholics Believe that Mary has the Power to Save?

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prodromos

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blackwasp said:
Can someone provide scripture for me that backs up these posts?

Romans 11:14
1 Corinthians 7:16
1 Corinthians 9:22
1 Timothy 4:16
James 5:20
Jude 1:23

John.
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ's atonement through our love and faith.
 
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Skripper

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RhetorTheo said:
Can anyone supply scripture that supports praying to the saints in heaven? Not praying for the dead, but praying TO the dead?
Sure, but I would first ask anyone who demands such a Scripture to supply a Scripture that supports the idea that every Christian practice must be supported by Scripture. Or, if they can't, then a Scripture that supports or implies the idea that if a practice isn't "supported" by Scripture that that means that it is somehow "contrary to" or "against" Scripture. Because this sure seems to be the underlying assumptions by those folks who are always demanding from Catholics "scriptural support" for everything.
 
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ps139

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RhetorTheo said:
Can anyone supply scripture that supports praying to the saints in heaven? Not praying for the dead, but praying TO the dead?
In Rev. 5:8 we see that the saints are praying. Praying for whom? Themselves? No. For us.
1 Tim 2:1-4 we see Paul asking Timothy to pray for people.
Now that Timothy is in Heaven and made righteous, and he prays (which we see in Rev 5:8), his prayers are more powerful and effective than they were when he was on earth. (James 5:16).

If I ask you to pray for me, how is that different than if I ask St. Timothy to pray for me?
 
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Skripper

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In conjunction with James 5:16, where it says how the prayers of the righteous are very powerful, I'd cite Luke 15:7, which tells us that those in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents. If those in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents ... a sinner who isn't even "praying" to them, then they obviously are aware of the sinner's repentence ... right? And repentence is an interior act of the will; yet those in heaven are aware of it, and they rejoice. Now, who is it that is in heaven, along with God and angels? It is the saints. So, if the saints in heaven know when someone repents, even when that one makes no conscience effort to make them aware of this through prayer, then it stands to reason that when someone does pray to them, that they would be aware of that as well. And James 5:16 tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful ... what created beings are more righteous in Christ than those already in heaven? And since we can infer from Luke 15:7 that those in heaven are aware of us and our prayers, then surely this can be considered "scriptural support" for praying TO the saints to ask them to pray FOR us. Case closed.
 
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ps139

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Skripper said:
In conjunction with James 5:16, where it says how the prayers of the righteous are very powerful, I'd cite Luke 15:7, which tells us that those in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents. If those in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents ... a sinner who isn't even "praying" to them, then they obviously are aware of the sinner's repentence ... right? And repentence is an interior act of the will; yet those in heaven are aware of it, and they rejoice. Now, who is it that is in heaven, along with God and angels? It is the saints. So, if the saints in heaven know when someone repents, even when that one makes no conscious effort to make them aware of this through prayer, then it stands to reason that when someone does pray to them, that they would be aware of that as well. And James 5:16 tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful ... what created beings are more righteous in Christ than those already in heaven? And since we can infer from Luke 15:7 that those in heaven are aware of us and our prayers, then surely this can be considered "scriptural support" for praying TO the saints to ask them to pray FOR us. Case closed.
Thats an excellent point Skripper. Well said. Case closed is right.
 
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JeffreyLloyd said:
Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ's atonement through our love and faith.

Quick question, if I may. Are these the actual scriptures, your comments on them, or a little of both? I don't have an opinion one way or another on this topic, but when you are citing scripture, especially if you are using bold to denote book, chapter and verse, you might want to post the actual scripture refered to - and add your comnentary separately. Otherwise, it gets a little confusing.
 
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prodromos

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Underdog said:
Quick question, if I may. Are these the actual scriptures, your comments on them, or a little of both? I don't have an opinion one way or another on this topic, but when you are citing scripture, especially if you are using bold to denote book, chapter and verse, you might want to post the actual scripture refered to - and add your comnentary separately. Otherwise, it gets a little confusing.

They are Jeffrey's excellent commentary on the verses I had previously posted references too. I would have expected people to look them up and read them in context (which is one possible explanation as to why I didn't post the text of the verses. Another explanation is I was too bone lazy ;), another is that I was on a slow and expensive dialup connection at the time :(. Take your pick, all of the above are true of me at one time or another.)

John.
 
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Hoonbaba

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blackwasp said:
That verse doesn't say anything about dead saints (Mary).
They're not dead. They're all alive.

"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38, cf Matt 22:32, Mark 12:27).

It seems the assumption is that if a believer physically dies, then he's no longer part of the body of Christ. However, the body of Christ is one body (Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 12:13) in both heaven and earth (Eph 3:15) as one unit in Christ (1 Cor 12:12). That means when one part of the body suffers, the rest suffers with it (1 Cor 12:26), including those in heaven! Certainly Christ who is in heaven sympathizes for us who are on earth (Heb 4:15). If that's true, then the rest of God's family in heaven would probably sympathize as well. This is the background to understanding 'praying to saints'.

In Rev 4:1, St. John is invited to witness heavenly worship. And one of the things he saw were the bowls of incense which were the prayers of all the saints (Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3), which implies that saints in heaven are praying. I suppose they are praying that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Matt 6:10)
Scripture also tells us that we are surrounded by this 'great cloud of witnesses' (Heb 12:1) and that we are in the heavenly jerusalem, among righteous men who were made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).

If I remember correctly, this is why C.S. Lewis believed saints in heaven are praying for us. But to take it one step further (and it's a crucial step), Catholics teach that we can invoke them for prayer. In other words, we can ask them for intercessory prayer, aka prayer requests. The basis for such a notion? Sacred Tradition. But that's a completely different issue.

-Jason
 
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JillLars

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I think one of the main problems here is a misunderstanding of the word "pray."

I think that many of us feel that prayer and worship are interchangable, one and the same, but in reality, "pray" doesn't always mean to worship, it can simply mean to ask.

From Dictionary.com:

Pray:
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech.

To make a devout or earnest request for
As you see from the above definitions, praying to the saints doesn't mean worshipping the saints, it is to request their prayers for us, just as we might ask someone in church to pray for us.
 
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Underdog

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prodromos said:
They are Jeffrey's excellent commentary on the verses I had previously posted references too. I would have expected people to look them up and read them in context (which is one possible explanation as to why I didn't post the text of the verses. Another explanation is I was too bone lazy ;), another is that I was on a slow and expensive dialup connection at the time :(. Take your pick, all of the above are true of me at one time or another.)

John.

In the interest of these discussions and in this message board format, don't you think it would be best if the actual scripture was posted? This way, everyone is one the same page, so to speak, about what scripture actually says. Things like translation version, context and meaning can be better discussed with more intelligence, when one posts the actual scripture, then they can add comments on it. And in this case, the comments weren't even the poster's, but were third removed - another reason to post the actual scripture before adding your, (or other's), commentary on them.
 
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Benedicta00

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Underdog said:
In the interest of these discussions and in this message board format, don't you think it would be best if the actual scripture was posted? This way, everyone is one the same page, so to speak, about what scripture actually says. Things like translation version, context and meaning can be better discussed with more inteligence, when one posts the actual scripture, then comments on it. And in this case, the comments weren't even the poster's, but were third removed - another reason to post the actual scripture before adding your, (or other's), commentary on them.

Okay, well then why don’t you go ahead and look them up and post them so we can discuss them with you?
 
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Underdog

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Shelb5 said:
Okay, well then why don’t you go ahead and look them up and post them so we can discuss them with you?

Instead of snide and condescending remarks, look at the context of what I'm talking about. If I do cite scripture, I will post the actual scripture, then add my own commentary. I am not the one who posted this way in this thread. Am I?
 
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Christy4Christ

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Underdog,

What you are seeming to forget is that the scripture you ask for wouldn't be available to you had it not been for The Catholic church. We happen to be the institution that put the canon together. :)

The early church fathers chose the books that you have in your bible out of hundreds of writings and documents. We have what is called "Sacred Tradition", this means we have practices that have been handed down from generation to generation directly from The Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Also try and remember that you have like 7 less books than us in your Protestant bible. They were removed by Protestant reformers in (I believe) between the 1500's and the 1800's sometime. The exact date I cannot remember.

Again I will emphasize this; you do not have scripture to support The Trinity, yet you believe in this right? There are some things that become "matters of faith". In the words of Martin Luther himself "It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin". For me it is an article of faith that the prayers of our Saints in Heaven are even more powerful than the prayers of a righteous person walking here on earth.

If you choose to be like doubting Thomas and say "I must see it to believe it" then I am afraid that nothing you see here will wind up being good enough for you. I have faith that those who came before me knew what they were doing.

God Bless you and give you His peace on your journey toward the Truth. :prayer:


Christy
 
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Underdog

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Christy4Christ said:
Underdog,

What you are seeming to forget is that the scripture you ask for wouldn't be available to you had it not been for The Catholic church. We happen to be the institution that put the canon together. :)

The early church fathers chose the books that you have in your bible out of hundreds of writings and documents. We have what is called "Sacred Tradition", this means we have practices that have been handed down from generation to generation directly from The Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Also try and remember that you have like 7 less books than us in your Protestant bible. They were removed by Protestant reformers in (I believe) between the 1500's and the 1800's sometime. The exact date I cannot remember.

Again I will emphasize this; you do not have scripture to support The Trinity, yet you believe in this right? There are some things that become "matters of faith". In the words of Martin Luther himself "It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin". For me it is an article of faith that the prayers of our Saints in Heaven are even more powerful than the prayers of a righteous person walking here on earth.

If you choose to be like doubting Thomas and say "I must see it to believe it" then I am afraid that nothing you see here will wind up being good enough for you. I have faith that those who came before me knew what they were doing.

God Bless you and give you His peace on your journey toward the Truth. :prayer:


Christy

This disortation is nice, and we could even start a separate thread about early Christian writings, sources, how the different writings were gathered, by whom, when, for what purpose, the different stages, what process was used to determine the writings to be included or excluded, what geographic area was included, the political influences on the process, the controversay surrounding the inclusion of the Book of Revelations, the more recent discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the Catholic Bible, the numerous other writings accepted by the Gnostics, and so forth. Trust me, I have done extensive study in this area, and would be more than happy to share my thoughts on the subject. :)

But that's not what we're talking about here. Is it? Here, my only contention is that posting a laundry list of scripture, with book, chapter and verse in bold, and never posting the actual passage, but instead filling in the blanks with commentary on what the passages 'mean', is just bad form, and can lend itself to a little confusion. So, if you are trying to get your point across to one who does not believe the same as you, wouldn't you agree that it would make more sense to at least reach a common ground first, (the actual passage cited), and discuss it from there? :)
 
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artnalex

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Allow me to edit Jeffrey's post to include the Biblical passages. This way we can get back on topic rather than bickering.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom. 11:13-14
"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them. "
I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.


1 Cor. 7:16

"For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?"
Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.


1 Cor. 9:22
"To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some."
Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.


1 Tim. 4:16
"Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."
you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.


James 5:20
"he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."
whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jude 22-23
"On those who waver, have mercy; save others by snatching them out of the fire; on others have mercy with fear, abhorring even the outer garment stained by the flesh."
we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.


Prov. 16:6
"By kindness and piety guilt is expiated, and by the fear of the LORD man avoids evil. "
by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ's atonement through our love and faith.
 
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