Religion is human

stu

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Religion is a creation of man.

This idea by its very nature opposes many long standing traditions and ideas. Therefore i offer a preemptive apology to those i may inadvertantly offend .

Religion since its inception has been used to further mans poltical needs. There are no prophets today, and at times i wonder if there ever were. much of the old testement was written as satire of the oral literture from the local peoples of that time. (i.e Gn 11). Although this does not preempt these stories religious values. None the less these statements are poltical ones. If there ever was true divine interevention I beleive that there should be a slight bit more of uniformity among the three great monothestic religions, and perhaps even more uniformity in christianity.

The church was hijacked in a sense by its own doctrine. That doctrine of orginal sin. Humans are inherently sinful, there own free will causes them to sin. well for the most part christianity, and all relgions, have been used by people to further their own means. The church rose to power at one point, claiming that is was an institution of God, but in reality a creation of man. A political move that has the full force of an all knowing greater being behind it. Even nowadays disbeleivers will "go to hell" or will "be judged by God." A handy excuse for the afterlife. Now not all christans beleive in orginal sin but that goes back to the point a made above.

Religions give people hope of a better place instead of showing them the beauty of the Earth that they are on. This hope is very helpful and has pulled many people through hardtimes. If it works then all the better.

Nowadays the perpetuators of religion are human, they are not supernatural in anyway, thus open to the free will orginal sin idea. so how can we tell what is pure religion and what is not.Perhaps on the basis of what is said by impure human interpreters?.....

This is just christianity's own doctrine... A victim of itself.

I apoligize to those i have offended with my heretical thoughts.

stu
 
Hello Stu! Welcome to the boards! I pray God will shed some wisdom on both of us.

(my replies in Bold.)

Religion is a creation of man.

Is this conjecture backed up with any historical evidence? As far as I know, the earliest civilization that we have recorded had religion.

Religion since its inception has been used to further mans poltical needs.

Is this every religion? Christianity is not marked in such a way. Also, is there any historical backing to this?

There are no prophets today, and at times i wonder if there ever were. much of the old testement was written as satire of the oral literture from the local peoples of that time. (i.e Gn 11).

Satire? Not really ... I don't find much satire in the Old Testament. Maybe you could point some out? (Gen 11 is not satire.)

If there ever was true divine interevention I beleive that there should be a slight bit more of uniformity among the three great monothestic religions, and perhaps even more uniformity in christianity.

What exactly do you mean by this?

The church was hijacked in a sense by its own doctrine. That doctrine of orginal sin. Humans are inherently sinful, there own free will causes them to sin. well for the most part christianity, and all relgions, have been used by people to further their own means.

Christianiy has been MISused as a crutch to gain [political] power. Christianity was never formed for that purpose.

The church rose to power at one point, claiming that is was an institution of God, but in reality a creation of man.

Historical evidence to back that conjecture?

Nowadays the perpetuators of religion are human, they are not supernatural in anyway, thus open to the free will orginal sin idea. so how can we tell what is pure religion and what is not.Perhaps on the basis of what is said by impure human interpreters?.....

Do you wish to contend the accuracy/validity of the Bible?

I apoligize to those i have offended with my heretical thoughts.

And I apologize if I sound condencending or angry, it wasn't my intention.



God bless!
 
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ZoneChaos

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On the surface, i agree wiht stu.. Religion is of man. however, what stu fails to realize is that "Christianity" is not tha same as "christianity".

"Christianity has alot of religious ideas in it.. but they are all of man. however, when you strip away thre religion of christianity (tradition, law, ceremony, etc..) you end up with what Christianity is really all about: Faith in Jesus Christ.

God is real, and His servants are real.

If there ever was true divine interevention I beleive that there should be a slight bit more of uniformity among the three great monothestic religions, and perhaps even more uniformity in christianity.

The three great monotheistis religions are just that.. religion.

Now, Christianity, at its foundation is 100% of God, and is 100% uniform among all Christians. The religion that we add to it is what causes the seperation, but All Christians adhere to the same core of truth, whoich is not of man, but of God. no other "religion" or better yet, structure of worship, has that on earth.

The church was hijacked in a sense by its own doctrine. That doctrine of orginal sin. Humans are inherently sinful, there own free will causes them to sin. well for the most part christianity, and all relgions, have been used by people to further their own means. The church rose to power at one point, claiming that is was an institution of God, but in reality a creation of man. A political move that has the full force of an all knowing greater being behind it. Even nowadays disbeleivers will "go to hell" or will "be judged by God." A handy excuse for the afterlife. Now not all christans beleive in orginal sin but that goes back to the point a made above.

The "Church" as an institution has alwasy been of man. God is not about making "institutions".

The Doctrine of original sin, was not a product of any man made institution or system, but a teaching of God from day 1 (literally, day 6) :)
It is this doctrine along with ajoining doctrines of Atonement, and salvation and punishment for sin that are at the core of Christianity and that every Christian does beleive. Anyone claiming other wise is not a Christins, by God's definition and if they claim they are, they are either seriously misled or are a liar.

Nowadays the perpetuators of religion are human, they are not supernatural in anyway, thus open to the free will orginal sin idea. so how can we tell what is pure religion and what is not.Perhaps on the basis of what is said by impure human interpreters?.....

Pure (or should we say, righteous) religion does not exist. The "truth" can only be learned from God. True Christianity can only be learned from God.
 
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marmaladePRO

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brilliant post Zone, i've heard it said that "religion is; man following man" and your definition shows the seperation that i see... thanks :)

""Christianity" is not tha same as "christianity"." oh, what a capital letter can purvey :)
 
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stu

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Thanks to all who replied.. let me try and be a bit more preciese...

To the first point... Relgion is a creation of man...

God never came down to Earth he cannot. His presence as many claim can be felt, but he cannot leave his post in heaven. Every single word about any religon was written by a man.. a human. Because of this All religions place as much if not more faith in the prophts then they do in God itself... Christianity claims that Jesus was part of God, In order to answer these questions and add much creadability to their claims. So is it not true that much literture in the bible's old testement are oral folk stories written down in several diffrent forms. THis is no reason to stop your belief but this can help you learn even more.

And the second well brought point... Gn 11 the tower of babel is an example of one of these folk stories written down. It is a satire of the time. The bedouin story comes from a nomadic perspective, and makes fun of the city dwellers as in Gn 11 v4 the City dwellers attept to build a mountian to God, so God can come to the peoples. And because of this in v5 the lord came down without the tower and struck them down... Seems to show the nomads thoughts on the city dwellers.... But a satire for the times...

The "Church" as an institution has alwasy been of man. God is not about making "institutions".

The Doctrine of original sin, was not a product of any man made institution or system, but a teaching of God from day 1 (literally, day 6)
It is this doctrine along with ajoining doctrines of Atonement, and salvation and punishment for sin that are at the core of Christianity and that every Christian does beleive. Anyone claiming other wise is not a Christins, by God's definition and if they claim they are, they are either seriously misled or are a liar.

Then God has befallen his own mistake... since we humans are naturally sinful everyone who spreads the word adds there spin... I dont belive God is offering lectures "in person" on his morals and philosophy to those of us today... Naturally sinful humans have brought the doctrine since its inception and added there own spin and interepretation...There is still question as to what exactly orginal sin is. Even preachers of the same sect and religion may disagree on these core themes...

How do we know who has the correct interepretation? How do we know some one is not being sinful without knowing it?

And as to who is and is not a Christian... Any body who claims to beleive something must believe it...Thus anybody can be a Christian by mentioning that they are... To bad you are stuck with the people who really dont know enough about the religion but still claim to be beleivers...

Pure (or should we say, righteous) religion does not exist. The "truth" can only be learned from God. True Christianity can only be learned from God.

How?


The three great monotheistis religions are just that.. religion.

Exactly...If there was one God should there not also be one true religion... All major monothesitic religions started in nearly the same area. How do we know "being a prophet" was not just the in thing to do of those ages.

Where are the prophets nowadays?


If there ever was true divine interevention I beleive that there should be a slight bit more of uniformity among the three great monothestic religions, and perhaps even more uniformity in christianity.

What exactly do you mean by this?

How can people disagree on what the core themes truely mean and are...How can that be? SHould they not be the same if it was true?

Looks to me as though stu is just stirring it up and looking for a reaction.

no..not exactly
I am questioning myself and what I truely truely beleive... I just wanted a little help in my search...
 
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Blackhawk

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"God never came down to Earth he cannot. His presence as many claim can be felt, but he cannot leave his post in heaven."

Except if He is omnipresent. But you really gave no reason for this statement. Why do you believe this?

"Christianity claims that Jesus was part of God, In order to answer these questions and add much creadability to their claims."

Again another assertion that you have not proved. Prove it!

Okay I have to stop here but please answer these questions. Please prove assumptions. That is if you can. If not then I will not bother with your posts.

blackhaw6
 
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stu

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it dosent look as if you were searching for anything but just out to try and discredit what everyone but yourself believe.

Alright....Maybe i approched it in the wrong manner...Maybe Ishould have asked more questions then I did in my orginal post...After reading over it I realize that my questions were very leading... I apoligize for my overtly rude manner in my questioning...All of us have beliefs that are strongly rooted within us, I have mine and you have yours...I am questioning mine and I want to hear yours...I am agian sorry for my rudeness

"God never came down to Earth he cannot. His presence as many claim can be felt, but he cannot leave his post in heaven."
Except if He is omnipresent. But you really gave no reason for this statement. Why do you believe this?

I am sorry for the lack of clarity in this statement I really ment that God can not truely be expressed by human means...He cannot become something tangible (i.e words, rock) because that is not truely God...That is why i say he stays in his post in heaven.. maybe i am wrong...But who has the right to say who is correct?

How can we grasp or even partially understand and infinite being?

I mean infinity makes something impossible to comprehend how then can the bible (ie words) express God if he cannot become something remotely human or tangable

"Christianity claims that Jesus was part of God, In order to answer these questions and add much creadability to their claims."

Again another assertion that you have not proved. Prove it!

I think it is standard christain doctrine that jesus was the son and therefore part of God....I fail to see what i have to prove

It would be nice if you would also answer some of my questions as well, I want your input, I want to hear your beliefs don't hold back on me because i am at the moment a Non-Beleiver

Please answer my questions as well...

Peace out

Stu
 
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How do we know who has the correct interepretation? How do we know some one is not being sinful without knowing it?

And as to who is and is not a Christian... Any body who claims to beleive something must believe it...Thus anybody can be a Christian by mentioning that they are... To bad you are stuck with the people who really dont know enough about the religion but still claim to be beleivers...


I think the bible is pretty strait-forward on such issues. I'll provide verses if you want, but I'm pretty tired right now (sorry!). And Christians would have no trouble looking to the bible for the answer to their questions on such matters.

I am sorry for the lack of clarity in this statement I really ment that God can not truely be expressed by human means...He cannot become something tangible (i.e words, rock) because that is not truely God...That is why i say he stays in his post in heaven.. maybe i am wrong...But who has the right to say who is correct?

How can we grasp or even partially understand and infinite being?

I mean infinity makes something impossible to comprehend how then can the bible (ie words) express God if he cannot become something remotely human or tangable


I don't think God came down in full glory to earth and revealed Himself to man ... that would blow everyone's mind! Do you have any idea how powerful of a shock that would send into our little brains?

But He did give us Jesus as well as His word (the bible). A little explination as to how our finite language does the job:

"I agree that there are some problems with using language to describe "infinite things" (but not necessarily all of them--we do okay with infinite series and sets, for example--but more on this later)...but I do NOT see a problem with using language to describe a Person...we use language everyday to describe and tells stories about Persons--without any limitation or restriction regarding "finite vs. infinite"--that issue just doesn't seem to come up in the language of personal actions and attitudes...


So, briefly, whereas there MIGHT be a problem with language for philosophical theology speculations on the essence of God, I don't see a meaningful problem when talking to or about the Person (consciousness) called God...agent-to-agent conversations and descriptions seem to bypass the measurement-oriented or geometrically-defined finite-infinite discussions (the phrase 'infinite Person' normally means "Person with an infinite nature that 'supplies' potentialities to that Person's range of actions etc."...whereas there may be no overlap between finite and infinite, there is (by creative design of the Image) a very substantial overlap between a Person and a person...enough so that the Person could take on a human form and be called the express representation of His character (Heb 1)...


hope this makes sense--it was hastily written...scrambling..."


- Glenn Miller, www.christian-thinktank.com




I hope this has been a help to you. Let me know if I missed a major concern of yours so that I can try to share some wisdom with you.



God bless!
 
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stu

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Thank you VM for your post....

but does this not support my view?

So, briefly, whereas there MIGHT be a problem with language for philosophical theology speculations on the essence of God, I don't see a meaningful problem when talking to or about the Person (consciousness) called God...agent-to-agent conversations and descriptions seem to bypass the measurement-oriented or geometrically-defined finite-infinite discussions (the phrase 'infinite Person' normally means "Person with an infinite nature that 'supplies' potentialities to that Person's range of actions etc."...whereas there may be no overlap between finite and infinite, there is (by creative design of the Image) a very substantial overlap between a Person and a person...enough so that the Person could take on a human form and be called the express representation of His character (Heb 1)...

This seems to support my thoughts that God is man made... To put more bluntly God only exists in the mind of the beleivers

Also this paragraph seems to beg the question just how human is God? Especially if he is described as an infinate person ?

And if this paragraph is language that describes God...How accurate can it be?
I know you are tired I would love to see you when you are awake :)

stu
 
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Stu,
I'm not sure that I understand where you're coming from in a lot of your arguments, but I get the last one, so I'll have a go at answering that.

Maybe your question should not be how human God is, but how Godly humans are. Genesis says that manwas created in God's image or likeness; since I very much doubt that this means through physical attributes, I assume that it means our characteristics, our ability to feel love, anger, heartbreak, grief, sorrow. All these feelings have been described in the Bible as having been felt by God. There is also relationship; God himself is in relationship with himself, Father, Son and Spirit, and he created man and woman to be in relationship with one another. This is one way in which we can know God's nature - it is everything that is good in us.
The problem that the Bible was written by flawed, prejudiced humans can be overcome when we look at Jesus, who was said to be not part-man and part-human, but FULLY God and FULLY human. He lived on Earth as an example of how a human should live on Earth as a representation of God. And the potential innacuracy of the sources was conquered by the fact that there were 4 different versions of Jesus' life.
I further believe that the Bible is an accurate message from God, written through his people. This is the sticking point; I believe this because the Bible says so, and I am sure that God has the power to ensure that nothing in the Bible is innacurate, but if you dont believe in God then there is no reason to believe that the Bible is from God. S lastly, I put the following reasons forward in favour of a Bible that was inspired by God.

- There are prophesies in Isaiah 7:14 that Immanuel (meaning "God with us") will be born to a virgin. His trial and conviction while innocent was described in Isaiah 53. Yet the book of Isaiah was written 700 years before Jesus was born.
In Psalms 22:16-18 his crucifixion was prophesied, and matches what was later described in Matthew chapter 27 and Mark chapter 15. The psalm was written by King David around 100 B.C.
The Bible is made up of 66 books, by many different authors, across a range of thousands of years, yet it has stood up to all arguments against it, and I have yet to hear of any irrefutable innacuracy or contradiction.

There are a lot more historical proofs and fulfilled prophesies, but I must sleep now. I hope that this helped.
Anna
 
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I forgot to make my main point. If God made us in His image and describes himself in our language in the Bible, then although we cannot use language to describe God fully, mainly because we could never understand God fully, we can use language to describe Him, as that is one way in which He relates to us.
Anna
 
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