The Mark! Allegiance to the Imperial Cult

ScottP · May 24, 2002

Maybe the chip used will be an Intel 666 chip ; )

Scott

Shaggy · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by ScottP
Maybe the chip used will be an Intel 666 chip ; )

Scott

It is very possible Intel will be the manufacturer/designer.

armothe · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by ScottP
You doubt that it will happen in the near future?

I'm not doubting that technology can expand to include and embedded microchip used for such purposes. I am doubting that this is the mark of the beast......for any future.

Have you heard of Direct Deposit? It is when your employer puts your paycheck directly in your bank account. You don't get currency unless you use your ATM card.

Yes, which many people I know opt-out of.

Ever hear of credit cards, check cards or e-commerce? They use little peices of plastic instead of currency and are accepted WORLD WIDE already.

Nobody is forced to use a credit card.

What would be left but do completely away with paper and coin currency? Not that much of a stretch either since the governments would save money by not having to print and distribute the currency.

I'll give you the fact that this is indeed possible. However, I *seriously* doubt this is going to happen in the next 40 years or so. And, I will continue to deny that these chips represent the mark of the beast.

So the question remains, IF/WHEN this happens would you accept a "credit card" implant?

To answer your hypothetical question, if I knew these chips were the mark of the beast; no, I would not accept one.

-A

GW · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by ScottP

As far as who is making the godly chip, no one, this mark is supernatural and is NOT tied to bank accounts or anything else.
Scott

Brother, they are parallel marks in scripture. Either they are both physical-literal or they are both spiritual-literal. You can't just split them according to whim. Ya see, they are parallel marks:

Revelation 13:15-14:1
And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

These are completely parallel: the two-horned lamb/beast puts a mark on those that worship the dragon and then the Lamb is seen standing with his followers who have the mark in their foreheads.

Now, again, is Intel working on God's Mark? Is Digital Angel working on God's mark? Who is working on the Mark of God which is to go on the foreheads of the saved??? Brother, if we're talking about REAL foreheads here and REAL consequences for possessing the mark or not then you have to produce who today is making the Mark of God/Lamb.

GW

Pericles · May 24, 2002

GW, that is an excellent point. I was just getting ready to bring up that issue...everybody always talks about the mark of the beast, but nobody ever talks about the mark of the Lamb

GW · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by ScottP
So no answer to the when Cesar was killed by a wound to the head and yet did live question?

Nero died. The Empire lived on (barely).

Originally posted by ScottP
Let me ask Preterists another question:
When a chip does come out to be embedded under the skin of your hand to be used as a credit card and becomes the ONLY accepted means to pay for goods and services....will YOU accept the implant since Cesar was the beast and this is just the latest technology?

Technology is provisional from God in our times like the various tools that were developed in the Bronze Age or the various farming methods that developed at specific times in history (terrace farming, irrigation, etc).

And, no, the Bronze Age was not just another stepping stone to get us to the "Mark of the Beast" Microchip Implant. Hehe.

GW · May 26, 2002

Originally posted by Pericles
GW, that is an excellent point. I was just getting ready to bring up that issue...everybody always talks about the mark of the beast, but nobody ever talks about the mark of the Lamb

This is one of those defining theories for futurists: the mark of the beast. This is where their imaginations run wild just as in ages past. Even many of the American colonists had believed King George was "antichrist" and the Stamp Act was the "mark of beast." Nothing has changed.

However, when it is pointed out that there are TWO marks for foreheads in Revelation and BOTH are necessary for specific consequences to occur, the futurist finds himself in a quandry. The futurist loves to talk of the supercomputer of Brussels or the Digital Angel or Intel and tie those to diabolical endtimes myths -- YET, no futurist dares touch the Mark of the Lamb and of God with a 10-foot pole. Why is that? It is because it exposes their fantastic notions for what they are -- poor handling of scripture.

Obviously, either both marks are physical-literal and the futurist must then identify who is manufacturing the Mark of God/Lamb --or-- both marks are "SPIRITUAL," and the presence of today's computer development doesn't provide a compelliing reason to believe in futurism. Then how will futurists convince anyone and sell all those book$$$ ? The "mark of the beast" has been a scare-tactic for decades, and many men, governments, and businesses have been slandered by the Christian community over wild speculations. Well, I'm here to urge futurists to come forward and help identify WHO is making the Mark of God/the Lamb today for our foreheads and WHAT technology is emerging that will be utilized for it. This is life and death here, is it not?

If today's computers aren't the mark of the beast then, "POOF!", there goes hoping that we are now in the endtimes. Futurism really doesn't have many other tricks up its sleeve to help lure people into its web of fear, speculation, and superstitions that simply never pan out .

gwyyn · May 26, 2002

Ok this may be a weak arguement but here goes. LOL. The mark of the Lamb will come from God. So therefore it can be anything. The mark of the beast will come the antichrist who is being backed by Satan. Ok how do I word this. We all agree that Satan can use what man has created to tempt us to sin. Then why can't Satan/antichrist use manmade things to mark the unbelievers. I THINK God's mark can be spiritual cause we have would have the faith and know God exists. And from what I have read in Revelations and other books of the bible the mark of the beast is a choice a human will have to personally make so therefore it's gonna have to be something literal.

Hope my arguement isn't to confusing. Still new at his and my my mind gets ahead of my fingers. So if something is totally confusing tell me please. LOL

God Bless
gwyyn

parousia70 · May 26, 2002

Hi Gwyyn, thanks for joining the discussion!
A couple things about what you said:

Originally posted by gwyyn
The mark of the beast will come the antichrist who is being backed by Satan. Ok how do I word this. We all agree that Satan can use what man has created to tempt us to sin. Then why can't Satan/antichrist use manmade things to mark the unbelievers.

First, please cite supporting scripture for your claim that the "mark of the beast" comes from "antichrist".
I maintain that the Bible makes no such connection between the "mark of the beast" and "antichrist", but if you know of any scripture that draws that connection, I'd like to see it!

2nd, as to your statement about "we all agree Satan can use what man creates to tempt us to sin" well, I guess I'm the exception, for the Bible states we are each tempted by our own desires, not Satans.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

You see, Man is fully capable of Sin without Satan "working it" or "behind it" somehow.

Originally posted by gwyyn
I THINK God's mark can be spiritual cause we have would have the faith and know God exists. And from what I have read in Revelations and other books of the bible the mark of the beast is a choice a human will have to personally make so therefore it's gonna have to be something literal.

Now this part is confusing

You say Gods mark is spiritual, but not "literal"?
What does that mean? How is the Mark of God not a "literal", factual distinguishing "mark"? Even if it isn't "physical", it must be "literal" yes?, and next you say the mark of the beast is a human choice so It has to be physical....isn't accepting the mark of God a human choice too?, or are you saying God forces his mark upon us?

Thanks in advance for clarifying these points...I hope my questions weren't too confusing!

YBIC,
P70

Kelier · May 26, 2002

God's "mark, is not a mark, it is a seal and I believe it to be spiritual, but perhaps it could be literal too. However the mark of the beast is obviously physical, because no one can buy or sell with out it.
Sealing does not necessarily constitute it being physical as we see in another passage (in Ephesians) that we are sealed until the day of redemption. But the mark can be seen as nothing other than literal.
Why do you suppose different terms were used? Seal(ing).
Mark.

Pericles · May 26, 2002

Originally posted by Kelier
God's "mark, is not a mark, it is a seal and I believe it to be spiritual, but perhaps it could be literal too. However the mark of the beast is obviously physical, because no one can buy or sell with out it.
Sealing does not necessarily constitute it being physical as we see in another passage (in Ephesians) that we are sealed until the day of redemption. But the mark can be seen as nothing other than literal.
Why do you suppose different terms were used? Seal(ing).
Mark.

Sealing or "branding" are the same thing. The beast puts its mark on its people so that eveyone knows they belong to it...in the same manner the Lamb puts his mark on His people as a seal, or brand, or MARK of ownership. By claiming that the mark of the beast is physical and the mark of the Lamb is spiritual, you just shown the level of incostistency in your understanding of prophecy.

Furthermore, there is a LARGE number of questions that you left unanswered in several other threads...just a friendly reminder

GW · May 26, 2002

There is no question that the TWO marks in Revelation are to be understood as parallel to one another. How can anyone say the first mark of this passage is physical-literal and then deny the second one the same exact status? Read the passage:

Revelation 13:15-14:1
And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads

We know from the cross references concerning the Mark of the Lamb/Mark of God that it is absolutely required to avert harsh consequences including death and must be applied just prior to the judgments to be poured out:

Revelation 7:3-4
Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

And lets not forget this:

Revelation 22:4
they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads

OR THIS:

Revelation 17:5
and on her forehead a name written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Lots of names here going on lots of foreheads. They're either all physical-literal or all spiritual-literal.

GW

Hoonbaba · May 26, 2002

Originally posted by GW
There is no question that the TWO marks in Revelation are to be understood as parallel to one another. How can anyone say the first mark of this passage is physical-literal and then deny the second one the same exact status? Read the passage:

We know from the cross references concerning the Mark of the Lamb/Mark of God that it is absolutely required to avert harsh consequences including death and must be applied just prior to the judgments to be poured out:

And lets not forget this:

OR THIS:

Lots of names here going on lots of foreheads. They're either all physical-literal or all spiritual-literal.

GW

Hi GW,

Thanks for sharing that

I particularly like Rev 22:4. Somehow it never occurred to me that we literally bear the 'mark' of Christ =) Also it sounds as if Ezekiel 9 is referring to the judgment upon Israel (Eze 9:8-10), though I don't know if this is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Anyway, Eze 9:4 and Eze 9:6 speak of who have 'marks on their foreheads', and those who bore this particular mark were spared from destruction. What's fascinating about this that the Hebrew word for 'mark' is 'tav' (Strong's #08420), where the Hebrew character is a cross

So in Ezekiel 9:4 and Ezekiel 9:6 says that believers (i.e. those who were spared by God) were 'crossed' or 'marked'. Since, we as preterists, believe that Rev 22:4 speaks of the kingdom of God, we can see that believers are 'crossed': Thus we bear the name of Christ. I don't know if this really means much to you all, but to me it's incredible! After all, believers are called to take up one's cross daily (Luke 9:23)!

gwyyn · May 27, 2002

Sorry Pericles for taking so long to get back to your questions about my post.

Ok on your fist question regarding the mark of the beast coming from the antichrist. It doesn't but it does come from the false prophet, ie the beast of the earth. Revelations 13:11-18 backs this up, I do believe GW wrote the scriptures out in a post before me. But basically the prophet calls for the pple of earth to worship the beast of the sea.

On the second issue I agree that we can sin cause of our own lust. But don't you think Satan is there tempting us back to our oldselves?

Ok on the last question, GW has already mentioned above the scriptures I was gonna use about God sealing the 144,000 on their foreheads. Rev 7:3, and Rev 9:4. Ok the reason I think this mark is a spiritual mark is (ok i'm a literal person, and I may be wrong in this) because if the mark was to be seen by all inhabitants then what's not to stop the nonbelievers from lining those sealed by the mark of God and killing them. This may be a total freakish way to think, but I guess that's how my mind works.
oh yea no I don't think God forces his mark on us, I think because we have faith we will know that we are marked.

The reason I believe the mark of the beast will be phyisical is because those accept it will have to use it to survive during this time. The false prophet sais they must recieve the mark to buy and sell.

Ok these are my answers to your questions. And like I have stated before, I'm still a babe in Christ. I'm still learning and this may be part of my reason for taking Revelations so literally.

gwyyn

GW · May 27, 2002

Originally posted by gwyyn
GW has already mentioned above the scriptures I was gonna use about God sealing the 144,000 on their foreheads. Rev 7:3, and Rev 9:4. Ok the reason I think this mark is a spiritual mark is (ok i'm a literal person, and I may be wrong in this) because if the mark was to be seen by all inhabitants then what's not to stop the nonbelievers from lining those sealed by the mark of God and killing them. This may be a total freakish way to think, but I guess that's how my mind works.
oh yea no I don't think God forces his mark on us, I think because we have faith we will know that we are marked.

The reason I believe the mark of the beast will be phyisical is because those accept it will have to use it to survive during this time. The false prophet sais they must recieve the mark to buy and sell.

Hiya Gwyyn.

Let me just point out that the text itself doesn't make any of the distinctions you are making. Therefore you are presupposing these things and placing them into the text -- they simply aren't there.

Next, take a look at the point that the Mark of the Lamb/Mark of God is also absolutely necessary for survival of real people:

Revelation 7:3-4
Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads. And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel

Revelation 9:4
They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

This "mark" here is crucial to the survival of those in the endtimes scenario. And, these folk don't have have the mark at first. They are given it just before the trial is poured out to protect them. This shows even more that the mark isn't just their general Christian state. They are ALREADY the servants of God. Yet now they are given this mark on their forehead for a very crucial reason that will either keep them alive through the trial or destroy them if they don't get it.

Finally, how do you square your views with St. John's explicit statement that the Mark was something that was obligated to come to pass shortly? (see Rev 1:1). The time for that event was at hand back in the 1st century (Rev 1:3). It seems impossible, therefore, that such a receiving of the "mark" could speak of something hundreds of years away, much less THOUSANDS of years away. What use could such a warning have been to St. John's original audiences to whom the letter was sent and to whom it says it pertained?

gwyyn · May 27, 2002

Ok my question is how was I presupposing things? I also stated in my post that I take Revelations to be literal. So I don't know how I was putting things there that werent' there.

Yes I know these people were already servants of God, my point on this issue was that the mark could have been just spiritual, because these people had the faith that God would protect them. Ok say that the Rapture, Tribulation haven't taken place (my belief) would those who then turn to God, not have bibles to see what was in store for them. That's why I believe these people would have faith in knowing that God was gonna protect them during the seals, bowels, ect..

Revelations 1:1-3, just tell me that yes he did send this letter to the 7 churches as a warning that was to come. However I still don't believe that all of Revelations as already come true.

If everything in the Bible has come to pass, why hasn't Christianity died out???

parousia70 · May 27, 2002

Originally posted by gwyyn
I also stated in my post that I take Revelations to be literal..........

........Revelations 1:1-3, just tell me that yes he did send this letter to the 7 churches as a warning that was to come. However I still don't believe that all of Revelations as already come true.

Gwyyn,
It's clear to me that you don't take All of RevelatioN (there is no 's' in RevelatioN BTW) Literal, as you contend you do, for Rev. 1 1-3 does not state that the leters were to be "delivered" to the 7 churches "shortly" as you seem to contend, but in fact declares that ALL THE EVENTS IN THE ENTIRE BOOK were to come to pass "Shortly" after they were predicted.

A "literal" interpratation of that passage would absolutely confine the fulfillment of the entire book within the lifetime of those who first received it!

In order to stretch "shortly" into 2000+ years you are using a "spiritual allagorization" of the term "shortly come to pass". You are therefore not using as "literal" of an interpratation here as you would have us, or even yourself, believe.

How about the "woman that sits on 7 hills"?(Rev. 17:9) She must be HUGE!
You do interprate that as a "literal" woman sitting on 7 "literal" hills yes?

Originally posted by gwyyn
If everything in the Bible has come to pass, why hasn't Christianity died out???

I don't understand your logic??? are you saying that after all is fulfilled, Christianity ceases to exist? where does the Bible teach that?

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the New Covenant Gospel age is "everlasting". That means it has no "use by" , or "expiration" date. It is ETERNAL. Christianity won't ever "die out"!

Isaiah 9:7a
"Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end.

Did you catch that????
What do you thing Christs "goverment" consists of?
It consists of His loyal subjects, "Christians"!!
This can only mean that the increase of the number of people who submit to Christ's govenronship by "becoming christian" will NEVER END!

Isn't that Awesome??!!

Praise GOD!!!

gwyyn · May 27, 2002

OK I'm humbly bowing out of this arguement, cause it been shown to me that i'm really lacking the knowledge to even show my point.
maybe someday i'll have the knowledge to be here in an arguement like this

thanks and sorry for taking your time
gwyyn

gwyyn · May 27, 2002

OK I'm humbly bowing out of this arguement, cause it been shown to me that i'm not up to par in my knowledge of REVELATION.
thanks and sorry for taking your time
gwyyn

parousia70 · May 27, 2002

Gwyyn, I am sorry you feel you must bow out, but I do understand.

May I suggest that in the future, you take the time to be certain about "why" you believe something before you publicly claim belief in it?

I know you claim lack of knowledge, but this isn't rocket surgery, it's actually very simple if you take the time to find scripture to back up your claims.

I look forward to your continued input after such a time as you are certain about "why" you believe as you do.

I welcome your opinion, and hope you continue to share it with us, and continue to ask such good questions!

YBIC,
P70

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