Circle the wagons?

This is a comment of a phenomenon that I don't see here so much as I see elsewhere, but I thought I'd post it here because everyone is much more civil and open here than other places where this conversation could be had (I had thought about going through email, but I'd be limiting the number of opinions I could muster and I want as full a spectrum as possible). It has nothing to do with a Catholic vs Non-Catholic argument, but rather a perception I see of Catholics in response to Non-Catholics on certain aspects.

What am I talking about? Well, the Catholic tendency of admission that other Catholics elsewhere in the world worship Mary. Typically the argument of the non-Catholic is "Have you seen how they worship Mary in (pick a region of the world outside of the United States, most typically Latin America)?" and the Catholic response is "Yes, that is an abuse but the Church has more important things to worry about." or "Yes, that is an abuse but they don't know any better." or "Yes, that is an abuse, but us educated Catholics in the United States know better than that and we don't do that so don't lump us in with them."

My first objection to these admissions is that we're all Catholic, and so their 'problems' ARE our problems to. If they're even problems at all, which I do not agree that they necessarily are. My second objection to these admissions is that why are we allowing non-Catholics, those not familiar with actual Catholic practice, telling us what we should or should not be doing? My third objection is, do we really have all the facts onto what is going on throughout the rest of the world to know whether or not Maryolatry is actually going on? Americans are notorious for thinking they know what is going on outside of the United States, but in truth we are very culturally ignorant.

I will never concede to a non-Catholic that what goes on in Latin America is Mary worship for those very reasons. Do I just want to win the debate? To a degree, so perhaps my ego comes into play? But I think that making this admission, even if it is made in attempt to appeal to the senses of the non-Catholic, only damages the Catholic position. Is it worship? I want proof, I don't want a "well, it looks like it" comment!

You need not leave the United States to see a strong veneration of Mary. Heck, I'm Italian, I grew up in New York. Every year they have parades where a statue of Mary is processed through the streets. Does this mean the Italian-Americans are worshipping Mary? Nonsense, utter baloney. This display of veneration is as strong a display as anything I've ever seen mentioned throughout the rest of the world, but would any Catholic here dare admit that something like that happens in the United States, and that it is worship? I doubt it.

The Vatican has admitted that there was a time where veneration of Mary and the Saints overtook people praying directly to Jesus Christ. But it wasn't because people were worshipping them. It's not because we were all closet pagans. It was because people felt they were unworthy of Jesus Christ. It was out of an overwhelming respect of Jesus Christ that people did not pray directly to Him, as funny as that sounds. But this isn't the only time that this has ever happened. Does everyone know the words said at Mass "Lord, I am not worthy to receive You, but only say the word and I shall be healed." That's right out of Scripture, Matthew 8:8 and Luke 7:6, though in the Scriptural instance it is the centurions servant.

So perhaps I'm just a captain that would rather go down with the ship instead of taking that last seat on the lifeboat when everyone else is already safe, perhaps I'm egotistical and I refuse to give my debate partners even a deserved point. But I don't think so. I think admitting this "fact" when we don't have all the "facts" gives them an undeserved foothold and starts us down a slippery slope.

Oh, and one last thing: Perhaps it's a pet peeve of mine, but when non-Catholics say that our veneration of Mary is a stumbling block for them I feel like telling them that is a load of horse manure! Does my belief in the intercession of saints actually inhibit them from having a relationship with God? I doubt it highly.

Anyways, thoughts? Comments? Praise? Threats?

Ok, I know where this came from and who is guilty of it. And for the record...It was me and I am guilty as charged. I have dawned my sacloth and ashes and will whip myself in the streets for 30 days.

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Heh, don't worry about it KC, it's not just you (you were just one instance of me seeing this, but I've seen it often enough) so I honestly hope you don't feel as if I was trying to publically take you to task cause I wasn't. I think you do an admirable job defending the faith, and I don't hand out those sorts of compliments like a politician hands out candy to children. Trust me, I've made major blunders myself throughout my time as a hobby, internet apologist hack. And who knows, perhaps others here disagree with what I have had to say, meaning you can retract your apology.

We should never apologize for the truth and allow someone to cause us to question ourselves.

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Exactly. Apologist means "defense of the faith", not a "back-pedaling apology for wrongs imagined".

But it gets hard when we say "it ain't so" and they say "it is too" with no concession from either side.

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If we handled these sorts of situations person to person, I think you'd see more maturity and acceptance in the discussions. I always have a hard time keeping my temper on the internet, it is a huge stumbling block for me, and everytime I confess it, the priest (no matter who he seems to be) says "Now you see why Jesus didn't come in this age." Amen!

I'd give my eyeteeth to have someone say.."Ok, maybe its not worship, but I still don't agree with it." I can live with this response.

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I agree, and you can. If you teach RCIA (especially Inquiry). It's just a matter of using the right medium. Everyone and their pet dog has something to say on the internet. The people you are speaking to, chances are they are not interested in what you've got to say. BUT, there are lurkers who are hanging on your words, weighing them and your attitude. It is ultimately to them that we should be directing our replies. What we have to do is show them that it's NOT just "Scripture alone" because no early Christian ever thought that way. Heck, how could it "Scripture alone" when most of the Epistles weren't even written until almost a generation AFTER Jesus Christ died?

Well, could we get the folks in Rome to maybe issue a "friendly reminder" to our non-Catholic friends in user-friend language of what you just said?

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Probably not. I imagine this is where we, as the laity need to step in and set things right. Our baptism calls us all to be witnesses and preach Christ crucified.

Seems like every time we get a reminder from the church its written in such legalistic terms that the average Joe-Christian can't understand it and the media ends up twisting it into some anti-Protestant proclamation.

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Yep, which is why it's ALSO our duty to point these sorts of things to our fellow Catholics who are still "in the bubble" when it pertains to how we're perceived as Christians throughout the world.

Anyway, I hope that you can forgive my misstep and pray for my guidance in future discussions.

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Forgiven KC, but I wouldn't worry about it, it was nothing major, and nothing anyone over there probably picked up on anyways. And as always, you and everyone will have my prayers, that the Holy Spirit guide them and inspire them to be witnesses of Christ.

Deo iuvante,
Tom/NYJ