The Temple Destruction-opinions sought

Bobcat · May 24, 2002

Hi everybody. I've been reading this forum for a while now and I must say I'm quite impressed. This forum is much more dynamic than others where everyone pretty much agrees with each other (preaching to the choir). Of course once in a while some of you come off a little less than "Christlike" in your exchanges.

I would like to hear various opinions on what the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans was in relation to Jesus' Olivet Discourse as told in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Here's some theories I've come across (please feel free to add to the list).

The Temple destruction by the Romans in 70 A.D. and the events surrounding it (leading up to it) were the complete fullfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

The Temple destruction was a partial fullfillment of the prophecy, but other events in the Olivet Discourse have yet to be fullfilled.

The Temple destruction and the events surrounding it were just a type of fullfillment, but the actual fullfillment of the prophecy is still future.

The Temple was destroyed as predicted by Jesus, but other prophecies indicate that the Temple will be rebuilt yet again and then be destroyed. Then rebuilt as the place where Jesus physically reigns on earth for 1000 years.

The Temple destruction as detailed by Josephus was a fabrication, not fullfillment. The Temple will be built and then be destroyed as Jesus predicted.

Thanking all of you for helping me on this.

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Bobcat
Hi everybody. I've been reading this forum for a while now and I must say I'm quite impressed. This forum is much more dynamic than others where everyone pretty much agrees with each other (preaching to the choir). Of course once in a while some of you come off a little less than "Christlike" in your exchanges.

I would like to hear various opinions on what the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans was in relation to Jesus' Olivet Discourse as told in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Here's some theories I've come across (please feel free to add to the list).

The Temple was destroyed as predicted by Jesus, but other prophecies indicate that the Temple will be rebuilt yet again and then be destroyed. Then rebuilt as the place where Jesus physically reigns on earth for 1000 years.

Thanking all of you for helping me on this.

Jesus did say the Temple would be destroyed and it was, but that was not the complete fulfillment of Matt. 24, etc. It is clear that from Matt. 24:11 on, Jesus was referring to the Tribulation period, which has yet to be fulfilled. Matt. 24:30 says that Jesus will be seen with power and glory. Jesus has yet to come in glory with His angels with Him. The temple will be rebuilt and as we can see today, Israel is preparing for it to happen. The abomination of desolation has yet to be done, where there will come one who will set himself up as God. The Tribulation period is a time that God will test the whole earth, that has very clearly not happened, and He was not referring to Israel only, but the world.

Bobcat · May 24, 2002

The temple will be rebuilt and as we can see today, Israel is preparing for it to happen. The abomination of desolation has yet to be done, where there will come one who will set himself up as God.

Okay I see what you're saying-but if I were to try to defend this position I would need some scripture stating that another temple is going to be rebuilt. I have no doubt there are lots of people trying to get the temple rebuilt, and it's possible that they will be successful someday-but does that necessarily mean that it will be a fullfillment of Biblical prophecy?

Concerning the abomination: Is it possible that the abomination of desolation was fullfilled by the Roman armies that encircled Jerusalem somehwere around 67 A.D.? Luke 21:20 tells us that when they (the people Jesus was talking to) saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies then know that it's desolation is near. Wouldn't the people in Jerusalem have seen the Roman's pagan symbols on their flags and sheilds, and their worship of pagan gods (including their emporer) as an abomination?

History tells us that when the Romans took the temple, they made sacrifices to their pagan gods on the site. Was this not an abomination? Also, is it not a historical fact that the Romans did completely desolate Jerusalem?

I guess my question is, are we overlooking a momumental historical event? An event that Christ predicted approximately 40 years before it happened, or roughly within that generation.

armothe · May 24, 2002

The Temple destruction by the Romans in 70 A.D. and the events surrounding it (leading up to it) were the complete fullfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

And hence, Christ kept all of his promises to His disicples and the total fulfillment of His new kingdom is complete.

The Temple destruction was a partial fullfillment of the prophecy, but other events in the Olivet Discourse have yet to be fullfilled.

Christ only partially kept his promises to His disciples and the new, glorious kingdom is only partially complete.

The Temple destruction and the events surrounding it were just a type of fullfillment, but the actual fullfillment of the prophecy is still future.

Christ lied.

The Temple was destroyed as predicted by Jesus, but other prophecies indicate that the Temple will be rebuilt yet again and then be destroyed. Then rebuilt as the place where Jesus physically reigns on earth for 1000 years.

What other prophecies in the bible state the temple will be rebuilt again?

The Temple destruction as detailed by Josephus was a fabrication, not fullfillment. The Temple will be built and then be destroyed as Jesus predicted.

Jesus said "THIS" temple will be destroyed. Not a future temple.

-A

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Bobcat

Okay I see what you're saying-but if I were to try to defend this position I would need some scripture stating that another temple is going to be rebuilt. I have no doubt there are lots of people trying to get the temple rebuilt, and it's possible that they will be successful someday-but does that necessarily mean that it will be a fullfillment of Biblical prophecy?

Concerning the abomination: Is it possible that the abomination of desolation was fullfilled by the Roman armies that encircled Jerusalem somehwere around 67 A.D.? Luke 21:20 tells us that when they (the people Jesus was talking to) saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies then know that it's desolation is near. Wouldn't the people in Jerusalem have seen the Roman's pagan symbols on their flags and sheilds, and their worship of pagan gods (including their emporer) as an abomination?

History tells us that when the Romans took the temple, they made sacrifices to their pagan gods on the site. Was this not an abomination? Also, is it not a historical fact that the Romans did completely desolate Jerusalem?

I guess my question is, are we overlooking a momumental historical event? An event that Christ predicted approximately 40 years before it happened, or roughly within that generation.

The thing is though that Jesus did refer to the destruction of the temple and the abomination of desolation, they are seperate events. Daniel sheds much light on this, especially chapter 9 and 12.
The Messiah would be cut off. Fulfilled by the crucifiction and rejection of Jesus Christ.
The destruction of the temple- Dan 9:26
A covenant will be made with Israel for 7 years and it will be broken by the anti-christ in the middle of the 7 years.
Daniel 12:11"and from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up..."
The temple was destroy and nothing was set up. The abomination of desolation that Daniel and Jesus referred to has yet to happen.

If all has been fulfilled, why has no one documented Jesus' return?

Pericles · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Bobcat
The Temple destruction by the Romans in 70 A.D. and the events surrounding it (leading up to it) were the complete fullfillment of Jesus' prophecy.
[/B]

Yes, the fulfillment was complete. An honest reader would be hard pressed to present acceptable evidence to show that Matthew 24 for example talks about two events instead of one.

Originally posted by Bobcat
The Temple destruction and the events surrounding it were just a type of fullfillment, but the actual fullfillment of the prophecy is still future.

The destruction in AD 70 cannot be a type. The AD 70 events were the antitype. The type was the destruction of Jericho by Joshua...there are never two antitypes to a type, so this argument is invalid.

Let me know if you want more details on this.

Originally posted by Bobcat
The Temple was destroyed as predicted by Jesus, but other prophecies indicate that the Temple will be rebuilt yet again and then be destroyed. Then rebuilt as the place where Jesus physically reigns on earth for 1000 years.

There is no such prophecy that exists. If there is one, I would like to see it.

Originally posted by Bobcat
The Temple destruction as detailed by Josephus was a fabrication, not fullfillment. The Temple will be built and then be destroyed as Jesus predicted.[/B]

Josephus documented these events under the watchful eyes of the emperor himself. Later on, his writings were included in the imperial library, as evidence that they were accurate depictions of the events. The romans would have not allowed fabricated writings to be presented as facts, especially concerning their own conquests.

armothe · May 24, 2002

If all has been fulfilled, why has no one documented Jesus' return?

What are you looking for? A play by play of exactly how Christ returned? Oh, wait....open up Revelation.

Fact is several of the early church fathers stated that prophecy had already been fulfilled, and the New Kingdom is now in existance. Of course you will find some early fathers who believe it was still to come...but perhaps they didn't have a copy of Revelation on hand.

-A

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Revelation 11:1
This is a prophecy regarding the rebuilding of the temple.

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by armothe

What are you looking for? A play by play of exactly how Christ returned? Oh, wait....open up Revelation.

Fact is several of the early church fathers stated that prophecy had already been fulfilled, and the New Kingdom is now in existance. Of course you will find some early fathers who believe it was still to come...but perhaps they didn't have a copy of Revelation on hand.

-A

Uh no it does not document what happened, it documents what will happen. John was shown what would happen, but never once infers that it is already past.

Pericles · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Kelier
Revelation 11:1
This is a prophecy regarding the rebuilding of the temple.

I beg to differ. That passage actually supports my argument, that John wrote revelation before AD 70 when there was still a temple around. Revelation 11:1 doesn't say "the temple will be rebuilt". Let me restate my original request, SHOW ME A PROPHECY THAT SAYS THE TEMPLE WILL BE REBUILT.

Where in the following passage do you see that the temple will be rebuilt?

"Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it."

New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Re 11:1). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

armothe · May 24, 2002

Uh no it does not document what happened, it documents what will happen. John was shown what would happen, but never once infers that it is already past. [/B]

Both true and false. From John's standpoint, the visions in Revelation were a future event. From OUR standpoint the visions in Revelation already happened.

Today I write in my diary about how a friend told me he is going back to school for his Masters degree.

100 years from now, after I am dead, somebody finds my diary and reads that account.

To "me" my friend going to school was a future, or even current event. To the person who found my diary, it was a *past* event. Why would I write in the past tense?

Get it?

-A

Kelier · May 24, 2002

That does not answer my question of why someone, who saw Jesus come again, didn't document it.

armothe · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Kelier
That does not answer my question of why someone, who saw Jesus come again, didn't document it.

Perhaps because his "second coming" wasn't something to be seen physically. Many of the signs relating towards the coming were documented by a historian called Josephus.

There is your answer.

-A

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by armothe

Perhaps because his "second coming" wasn't something to be seen physically. Many of the signs relating towards the coming were documented by a historian called Josephus.

There is your answer.
-A

The did Jesus lie when He said that every eye would see Him return?

Bobcat · May 24, 2002

If all has been fulfilled, why has no one documented Jesus' return?

A most excellent question indeed.

But I can't help but wonder: Isn't Christ's return documented with each new Christian? I have a simple little tract I carry around with my Bible. It's a tract about how to have eternal life in heaven. It takes you through the steps to pray the sinner's prayer-receiving Jesus as the only way to salvation. Then it asks the question and gives a reply, "Does this prayer express the desire of your heart? If it does, pray this prayer right now, and Christ will enter your heart with eternal life."

When we become a Christian do we really believe that Jesus dwells within us? I do. So that begs the question, does the spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling within us signify his return?

As for historical evidence: The Bible talks about Jesus coming in a cloud (Luke 21:27). (Our two most reliable histories of A.D. 70 event are provided by a pagan Roman historian, Tacitus, and a captured Jewish general (non-Christian), Josephus. Both report extraordinary supernatural events taking place during the seige, including chariots and armies seen in the clouds above Jerusalem. However, with neither person being a Christian or having a copy of the New Testament available-may not have been able to interpret what was seen. Just a thought.

armothe · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Kelier
The did Jesus lie when He said that every eye would see Him return?

You assume Jesus was talking about a literal, physical eye (i.e. part of the body).

-A

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Bobcat

A most excellent question indeed.

But I can't help but wonder: Isn't Christ's return documented with each new Christian? I have a simple little tract I carry around with my Bible. It's a tract about how to have eternal life in heaven. It takes you through the steps to pray the sinner's prayer-receiving Jesus as the only way to salvation. Then it asks the question and gives a reply, "Does this prayer express the desire of your heart? If it does, pray this prayer right now, and Christ will enter your heart with eternal life."

When we become a Christian do we really believe that Jesus dwells within us? I do. So that begs the question, does the spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling within us signify his return?

As for historical evidence: The Bible talks about Jesus coming in a cloud (Luke 21:27). (Our two most reliable histories of A.D. 70 event are provided by a pagan Roman historian, Tacitus, and a captured Jewish general (non-Christian), Josephus. Both report extraordinary supernatural events taking place during the seige, including chariots and armies seen in the clouds above Jerusalem. However, with neither person being a Christian or having a copy of the New Testament available-may not have been able to interpret what was seen. Just a thought.

Hmmm... interesting. I have never heard of those things. However Jesus said every eye would see Him, not chariots and armies.

Pericles · May 24, 2002

Kelier, also, when you have a chance, as a reminder, try to address my request of a biblical passage that says "the temple will be rebuilt".

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by armothe

You assume Jesus was talking about a literal, physical eye (i.e. part of the body).

-A

Sorry but you can't spiritualize everything. So Jesus' return isn't literal?

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Kelier · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Pericles
Kelier, also, when you have a chance, as a reminder, try to address my request of a biblical passage that says "the temple will be rebuilt".

There is no verse that exactly states "the temple will be rebuilt", just like there is no verse exactly states "Trinity".

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