Preterists - I hate to do this...but

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Pericles

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Originally posted by RKF

The World is heading full steam into it and more prophecies have been fulfilled inthe last few years then at any other time, in fact in the last two or three months,

Wow! Really?? Can you share these prophecies and fulfillments with us? I am extremely interested in seeing which prophecies have been fulfilled in the past three months and how
 
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2002 Christian

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Forget the errors of preterists and futurists!

title1.gif


http://www.historicist.com

http://www.e-historicist.com/

http://www.historicism.org/
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by davo


Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

One may debate who or what the "City" is -but how do YOU account for these "bad evil people," from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of yours which as YOU say comes at the final end –AFTER EVERYTHING??? –no more devil, no more sin, no more sickness, no more tears etc etc. Again, this CANNOT be ignored and be explained away as the millennium, as this is Rev 22 it is THE END. There is NO chapter 23 -NO adding to the Bible.

A biblical response would be appreciated; nothing highfalutin just biblical would be fine.

davo

----------------------------------------------------------

Everything must be taken in context.


Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand .


"for the time is at hand" does NOT mean NOW, as in, it's time for all these verses here to be fulfilled.

The time for the "sayings of the prophecy of this book" are now to be declared, rather then sealed is what is said here.


This is present and future tense.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


"I come quickly" Has no reference to a time here, just that when He comes after these events in Revelation it will be "Quickly"

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


From here on out is an admonishment. Does not mean the events are or have taken place.


Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Where's the city? it's not here yet.

Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.


SEE THE ADMONISHMENT?

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come . And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
 
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davo

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Originally posted by ScottP
If the book of revelation has already happened, then WHAT was the mark of the beast and WHEN was it applied?

First things first -you still haven't dealt with these:

Originally posted by ScottP
The chosen will dwell with God in the Kingdom of heaven. The sinners wil dwell without the kingdom(the rest of the world).

Scott -what is the scriptural evidence [verses please] that indicates to you the presence of sin and evil AFTER ALL [Rev 19 & 20] that is contrary to God and His righteousness is cast into the 'Lake of Fire' FOREVER. How do you arrange for "sinners" in your "new eternal creation"

Originally posted by ScottP
As far as what the tree's true purpose is, we don't really know because it hasn't happened yet.

Scott, scripurally speaking, the Tree of Life typifies and is Christ -his purpose was to save the world, not condemn it [Jn 3:17]. Do you seriously think that Jesus went through all that He did -just to come back and wipe it all out??? And if He did -then where are these "evil sinners" of yours coming from in the eternal state of Glory??? Where is your scriptural evidence :scratch:

davo
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Mandy
Everything must be taken in context.

Absolutely -I couldn't agree more!

Originally posted by Mandy
"for the time is at hand" does NOT mean NOW, as in, it's time for all these verses here to be fulfilled.

Certainly, if your "NOW" means our day and age. All the verses there WERE fulfilled -just as prophesied. Nowhere in scripture can you find an "at hand" statement that means time indefinite -apart from imposed futurist elasticity.

Originally posted by Mandy
The time for the "sayings of the prophecy of this book" are now to be declared, rather then sealed is what is said here.

Wrong! The "sayings of the prophecy of this book" were being declared THEN in John's day, because it was in the process of happening THEN -that's why they were not sealed.

Originally posted by Mandy
This is present and future tense.

re: Rev 22:11
Again wrong -the verbs in verse 11 are in the "imperfect tense," meaning they were past & present [at Johns writing]. Those who had and at THAT time were practicing unrighteousness would remain so -for Judgment WAS imminent!

Originally posted by Mandy
"I come quickly" Has no reference to a time here, just that when He comes after these events in Revelation it will be "Quickly"

This is wonderful gymnastics, but again you've missed the mats. He was coming "quickly" by virtue of the fact that things then as prophesied WERE "at hand." In accordance with the context.


Originally posted by Mandy
From here on out is an admonishment. Does not mean the events are or have taken place.

An admonishment in deed it was -TO THEM. If John was not writing to the 'Seven Churches' as context and plain text says he was -then 'The Revelation' [according to your scheme of things] was a closed book and sealed, and completely utterly and totally meaningless to those to whom he wrote. Only futuristic arrogance says "it didn't happen to them -it's all ours!"

Originally posted by Mandy
Where's the city? it's not here yet.

Try going back a chapter -it was ALREADY coming down. This is a picture of the Bride i.e., the Church -Perfected through her trials and now adorned with glory [hence the perfect cube]. Remember chapter one verse one these things were "signified" = to show by sign i.e., picture, metaphor, image, symbol etc.

So Mandy, would you agree -Rev 22 is about the "new creation"?? What's with the need for "healing," be it natural OR spiritual?

davo
 
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RKF

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NEWS FLASH....

PRETEREST EVERYWHERE ARE ON THE RUN AFTER THEIR FOLLOWERS ATTACK..... NEWS AT 11.....

Today in America after the great tribulation started and the mark of the beast was implamented by the one world government, followers of the preterest came after their teachers with a vengence, after being told that it all had been fulfilled in 70ad, and that Jesus had already came,
they took stock in what they believed to be true only to find out it was a trick of the devil, now along with their false hopes they are lost...............

Don't let this happen to you....read the Bible on you own don't be influenced by anyone other than the Holy ghost that is there to lead and guide to the TRUTH......
 
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armothe

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Don't let this happen to you....read the Bible on you own don't be influenced by anyone other than the Holy ghost that is there to lead and guide to the TRUTH...... [/B]

And I assume you were never influenced by Sunday school, vacation Bible school, a pastor, Sunday sermons, others in your church?

You started with a "clean" (non-biased) slate" when you first started reading Scripture?

-A
 
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Pericles

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Originally posted by RKF
NEWS FLASH....

PRETEREST EVERYWHERE ARE ON THE RUN AFTER THEIR FOLLOWERS ATTACK..... NEWS AT 11.....

Today in America after the great tribulation started and the mark of the beast was implamented by the one world government, followers of the preterest came after their teachers with a vengence, after being told that it all had been fulfilled in 70ad, and that Jesus had already came,
they took stock in what they believed to be true only to find out it was a trick of the devil, now along with their false hopes they are lost...............

Don't let this happen to you....read the Bible on you own don't be influenced by anyone other than the Holy ghost that is there to lead and guide to the TRUTH......

...and listen to someone that can't spell "implamented" and "vengence"...he would clearly guide you to the truth.
 
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armothe

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Originally posted by RKF
Yes....I didn't want anyone to corrupt the word for me. i want to let the Holy ghost lead and guide me

I'm sorry, but I find this very hard to accept. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were not brought up/raised in a "church" environment - and you just started studying the Bible on your own.

-A
 
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GW

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Originally posted by RKF
Yes....I didn't want anyone to corrupt the word for me. i want to let the Holy ghost lead and guide me

RKF,

If you truly want to let the Holy Ghost guide you then you must pay close attention to these words:

1 Corinthians 14:37
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.



You must acknowledge that the things Paul wrote are the commandments of the Lord.


PAUL: ON THE TIMING OF THE SECOND COMING

"for yet A VERY VERY LITTLE [WHILE], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry" (Hebrews 10:37)

"Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, AND THE DAY IS NEAR." (Rom 13:11-12)

"But I say this, my brothers, THE TIME IS SHORT; and from now it will be wise for those who have wives to be as if they had them not " (1 Cor 7:29)

these things happened to them for examples, written for OUR admonition, upon whom THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME. (
1 Cor. 10:11)

God...who spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, HAS IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken to us by his son." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

"WE who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15.
 
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Wildfire

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I would like to jump in on the discussion and add my two cents of whether or not the book of Revelation has been fufilled.

I believe "part" of it has.

To understand the meaning of the book, one has to read it as a whole, and not just sentences in chapters.

It begins with a warning from jesus Christ to the seven churches or "faith based groups" of specific people; we can read through these churches and know where each one of us are spritually, by the description given. We are told to change our ways and repent, or else God will remove our candlestick from his sight.

The book of life is the book that is sealed. Noone can open it/ not in heaven or on earth, until Jesus Christ comes foreward and takes the book.

There are seven seals binding the book.

As each one opens, the countdown of the end of the world begins, with each seal signifying something important.

There are other prophetic events that happen during these seals being opened; the casting of satan onto the earth, the beast and the tribulation period.

I believe that all of the seals have not been opened.

The sixth seal indicates a great earthquake/ the powers of heaven being shaken/ the sun darkening and the moon changing its color to red.
We have not witnessed that. Not now, or in the past. This is still (to my own belief) a future event.

The seventh seal appears to be the worst, because it is a punishment to the sinners, who have turned themselves away from God.

We ARE close; Jerusalem is nearly surrounded by armies. The desolation is about to happen, WATCH; and when it does, all of these things will follow quickly.

Wildfire
 
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Wildfire

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HI Mandy; good question although I am not certain I am the one to answer it. But I will try.

I am not sure exactly <what> the desolation is, but I believe I know where it is; and that is Jerusalem.

In Revelation, when the temple is being measured, the angel says to leave the court (which lies without) out, and not to measure it. Because it is to be given to the Gentiles, and overrun or defiled.

Daniel speaks of the desolation as "standing in a holy place" where it ought not, similiar to Judas turning against Jesus Christ for thirty pieces of silver.

Many believe that the daily sacrifice (according to the OT) must be taken away again, in order for Daniels prophecy to begin. I am not certain that type of sacrifice is meant for this time; it is out of place, do you agree? The Temple Dome has dominated the holy site for such a long time, that the sacrifice given unto God, has almost become forgotten.

But, the desolation is an object of some kind, because we are told that it is "placed" there; a disgusting thing. And they (could be Islam) shall exault themselves, and give strength to a strange God.

With all of the digging beneath the temple mound, who knows what could be found. <If> it is the covenant of God, which is uncovered, that would be extremely blasphemous.
To me, that would be the worst thing possible, to defile that.
(sigh)
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Hope I made some sense to you. :)
Wildfire
 
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