only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

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MC1171611

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Witness. said:
Hi MC,

I have encountered these doctrines before. The only thing that I can say is, "Flee from these things, lest they overwhelm you and you become useless for our Lord."

There is much error in what you have typed, but I would only offend you if we continue this conversation.

Peace,

John

You won't offend me; I'm more mature than that. If you have some Scriptures against my position, please show me: I have asked others to do the same, and they never do. So, if you have some, please share!
 
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Witness.

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MC1171611 said:
You won't offend me; I'm more mature than that. If you have some Scriptures against my position, please show me: I have asked others to do the same, and they never do. So, if you have some, please share!

Hi MC,

Ok, I will try, but I have found in the past that such conversations are rarely edifying. I probably won't convince you, but, perhaps it is just that you need to be exposed to other ideas. I will trust God in this.

First of all, you mention that we live in the Church age. This can mean many things to different people, but is more a construct of man, rather than something clearly laid out in the Bible. I am not disputing that this is the time of the Church, but often, when people use such a term, they want to differentiate between Jewish believers and Gentile believers. There is no differentiation. Those Jews who came to faith in Christ in the early Church are one and the same as those Gentiles who came to faith in Christ. If you are insinuating that Jewish and Gentile believers are different, then let me know, and I can give you scripture to refute such an idea.

About scripture and Paul. When the council of Carthage came together to determine the canonicity of the books of the Bible, Paul's letters needed some sort of Apostolic authority behind them. That was one of the criteria that determined whether a letter was God breathed or not. Paul calling himself an Apostle was not enough, there needed to be a person of the Church who lived with Christ during his ministry, one of the eleven (since Judas had been hung) who supported his claims. 2 Peter 3:14-16 was the source of that authority, and though they debated that 2 Peter was not canonical itself (not written by Peter), it was chosen that it was, and that Paul's letters were also. Paul was an Apostle, as Peter was, but his letters should not be held up as more special than the other portions of the Bible. All scripture is profitable, not just Paul's letters.

In the passages that you quote that indicate that we should be followers of Paul, it helps to understand what definition of follower is being used here. I noticed that you do not like the Greek (though, the KJV was translated from the Greek), but this word means to imitate, unlike the definition that you seem to be implying here. We should imitate Paul in his behavior. To consider Paul our leader due to these words is erroneous.

Paul even states as such:

1 Cor. 1:11-13 "For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Christ is our leader. There is no other. All of the Apostles were for the Church. Paul was chosen to evangelize amongst the Gentiles. That is what he means when he calls himself the Apostle of the Gentiles. If he were the only Apostle to the Gentiles, then why did God have Peter evangelize to Cornelius? (Acts 10)

There is a danger in making absolute conclusions from only one passage in scripture.

In the Rom. 11:13 quote, there is some discrepancy as to which article should be used before the word apostle. It could be the, and it could be an. An would be better, since there were many apostles for the Gentiles, not just Paul. I do not know Greek enough to determine the linguistic reason for this, but if you wish, I can discuss this with a Greek scholar to determine why an should be used instead of the. From what I was led to believe, the Greek language is not specific about articles like English is, and so any discrepancies of translation are due to the translator's personal opinion, rather than from an established rule. Still, Paul was not the only apostle who ministered to the Gentiles.

There are translational errors in the KJV, just as there are in any Biblical translation. It is the original documents, which do not exist, that have no errors. Once man has gotten his hands on something, then his weaknesses show forth. But, these errors are trivial, and do not influence the truth of God's word.

John
 
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Mark G.

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Hello everyone

Concerning the restrainer of II Th 2:5-7

In reading the thread I only saw one mention of Rome as the restrainer... Has anyone taken a look at the old commentaries? I'm too new here to post the links with this so this is an edited version of something I put together several years ago... enjoy

Tertullian (145-220)
"Again, in the second epistle he [Paul] addresses them with even greater earnestness: ‘For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away,’ he means indeed of this present empire, ‘and that man of sin be revealed,’ that is to say, Antichrist, ‘the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?"

"There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im- pending over the whole earth-in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes--is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.46 We have no desire, then, to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration. "

Hippolytus (170-236)
The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ.

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386)
"Thus wrote Paul, and now is the ‘falling away’ ... now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and ‘have itching ears’ ... This therefore is ‘the falling away,’ and the enemy is soon to be looked for...


"But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is now drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after these an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power... "So that he seateth himself in the temple of God." What temple then? He means, the Temple of the Jews which has been destroyed. For God forbid that it should be the one in which we are!".

John Chrysostom (347-407)
One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they ing and warring to this end. And he did not say that it will be quickly, although he is always saying it-but what? "that he may be revealed in his own season," he says,
"For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero, as if he were the type of Antichrist. For he too wished to be thought a god. And he has well said, "the mystery"; that is, it worketh not openly, as the other, nor without shame. For if there was found a man before that time, he means, who was not much behind Antichrist in wickedness, what wonder, if there shall now be one? But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is noting to call for it. So indeed he also says here. "Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exit himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, for example, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans: so will this also be by the Antichrist, and he by Christ, and it will no longer withhold. And these things Daniel delivered to us with great clearness.



Jerome (340-420)
"I shudder when I think of the catastrophes of our time. The Roman world is falling: yet we hold up our heads instead of bowing them. ... "Rome’s army, once victor and Lord of the world, now trembles with terror at the sight of the foe"

"But what am I doing? Whilst I talk about the cargo, the vessel itself founders. He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near. Yes, Antichrist is near whom the Lord Jesus Christ ‘shall consume with the spirit of his mouth’.
"For thirty years the barbarians burst the barrier of the Danube and fought in the heart of the Roman Empire. Rome has to fight within her own borders not for glory but for bare life"

Geneva Bible
(6) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: (7) only he who now (h) letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.


(6) Even in the apostles time the first foundations of the apostolic seat were laid, but yet so that they deceived men. (7) He foretells that when the empire of Rome is taken away, the seat that falls away from God will succeed and hold its place, as the old writers, Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome explain and interpret it.
(h) He who is now in authority and rules all, that is, the Roman Empire.

Matthew Henry (1706)
Concerning this we are to observe two things: (1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived. (2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail.

John Wesley (1754-1765)
He will surely be revealed; for the mystery - The deep, secret power of iniquity, just opposite to the power of godliness, already worketh. It began with the love of honour, and the desire of power; and is completed in the entire subversion of the gospel of Christ. This mystery of iniquity is not wholly confined to the Romish church, but extends itself to others also. It seems to consist of,

1) Human inventions added to the written word.
2) Mere outside performances put in the room of faith and love.
3) Other mediators besides the man Christ Jesus.

The two last branches, together with idolatry and bloodshed, are the direct consequences of the former; namely, the adding to the word of God. Already worketh - In the church. Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors, heathen or Christian; the kings, Goths or Lombards; the Carolingian or German emperors.

John Gill (1697-1771)
though till the time came fixed by God for his appearance, the decree must be a bar in his way; since as there is a time for every purpose, nothing can come to pass till that time comes: but by that which withheld, let or hindered the open appearance of antichrist, were the Roman empire and emperors; these stood in his way, and while this empire lasted, and the emperors wore the imperial crown, and sat on the throne, and held the government in their hands, the popes could not come at the height of their ambition, dignity, and authority, nor shine in their glory; nor could the harlot of Babylon take her seat, and sit upon the seven hills of Rome until the Roman emperor was taken out of the way: this therefore hindered,


verse 7 that is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one: and which was done partly by Constantine the emperor receiving the Christian faith, whereby the Roman empire as Pagan ceased; and by increasing the riches of the church, and feeding the pride, ambition, and covetousness of the bishops, especially the bishop of Rome; and next by removing the seat of the empire from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople: here the Greek emperors continued in succession, and neither they themselves, nor even their exarchs, resided at Rome, but at Ravenna; so that way was made for antichrist to come to his seat, and there was nothing to rival and eclipse the grandeur, power, and glory of the Roman popes Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (1871)
6. now ye know--by my having told you. The power must have been one "known" to the Thessalonians. what withholdeth--that which holds him back; "keeps him in check": the power that has restrained the man of sin from his full and final development, is the moral and conservative influence of political states [OLSHAUSEN]: the fabric of human polity as a coercive power; as "he who now letteth" refers to those who rule that polity by which the great upbursting of godlessness is kept down [ALFORD]. The "what withholdeth" refers to the general hindrance; "he who now letteth," to the person in whom that hindrance is summed up. Romanism, as a forerunner of Antichrist, was thus kept in check by the Romanemperor (the then representative of the coercive power) until Constantine, having removed the seat of empire to Constantinople, the Roman bishop by degrees first raised himself to precedency, then to primacy, and then to sole empire above the secular power ... The elect Church and the Spirit cannot well be, as DE BURGH suggests, the withholding power meant; for both shall never be wholly "taken out of the way" (Matthew 28:20). However, the testimony of the elect Church, and the Spirit in her, are the great hindrance to the rise of the apostasy; and it is possible that, though the Lord shall have a faithful few even then, yet the full energy of the Spirit in the visible Church, counteracting the energy or "working" of "the mystery of lawlessness" by the testimony of the elect, shall have been so far "taken out of the way," or set aside, as to admit the manifestation of "the lawless one"; and so DE BURGH'S'S view may be right (Luke 18:8'Revelation 11:3-12'). This was a power of which the Thessalonians might easily "know" through Paul's instruction.

Barton Johnson (1891)
Ye know now what withholdeth. They knew because Paul had told them when with them. We have not that advantage, but I believe that he told them that this development could not take place until pagan imperial Rome fell. We know that it did withhold, or prevent it. 7. For the mystery of iniquity. This revelation of the man of sin. It was a mystery, that is, something yet hidden. Doth already work. Causes are beginning to work which will lead to it. Only he who now letteth. He that hindereth must first be taken out of the way. There was no room for an arrogant spiritual power in Rome as long as imperial Rome continued to persecute the church. A persecuted church cannot be a haughty church. Two things were needful before the papal power could be developed; viz., the overthrow of paganism, and the removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome. When these things were done, it was free to seize the old Roman scepter. 8. Then shall that Wicked be revealed. After the hindering power is removed. Whom the Lord shall consume. The Wicked power will be destroyed by the Lord's coming, and will continue to exist, possibly, until that event. 9. Whose coming. That of the Wicked power. Is after the working of Satan. That is, it will deceive men as Satan does. Lying wonders. False miracles. 10. Deceivableness of unrighteousness. Unrighteous delusions which will be accepted by its votaries, them that perish. Those that perish, receive not the love of the truth.

Respectfully
Mark G
 
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MC1171611

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Witness. said:
There are translational errors in the KJV, just as there are in any Biblical translation. It is the original documents, which do not exist, that have no errors. Once man has gotten his hands on something, then his weaknesses show forth. But, these errors are trivial, and do not influence the truth of God's word.

John

If the Book that I am holding has any errors at all, then God is not the Author thereof. God is not the Author of confusion, His Words are pure, and all Scripture is inspired by Him. If one little punctuation mark is wrong, then it stands to reason that all of the rest is questionable. This is the first issue: "Yea, hath God said?" Satan has been questioning God's word for 6,000 years, and he has only gotten better at it. All of the modern versions are translated from perverted manuscripts, and were directly influenced by Satan. (read "New Age Bible Versions, Gail Riplinger) If we don't have a perfect, infallable, inerrant Word of Prophecy, then we need to close up and go home.
 
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Witness.

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MC1171611 said:
If the Book that I am holding has any errors at all, then God is not the Author thereof. God is not the Author of confusion, His Words are pure, and all Scripture is inspired by Him. If one little punctuation mark is wrong, then it stands to reason that all of the rest is questionable. This is the first issue: "Yea, hath God said?" Satan has been questioning God's word for 6,000 years, and he has only gotten better at it. All of the modern versions are translated from perverted manuscripts, and were directly influenced by Satan. (read "New Age Bible Versions, Gail Riplinger) If we don't have a perfect, infallable, inerrant Word of Prophecy, then we need to close up and go home.

That is the problem with your faith. It is all or nothing. This leads to ignorance of the truth. Can you have faith in something that may not be utterly perfect, but is utterly true? I can.

The word of God is inerrant. The original manuscript that was written by the original author, both in Greek and Hebrew were led by the Holy Spirit and have no errors. Sadly, over time, minor errors (mostly scribal in the Old Testament) have occured. Like I said though, these errors are very minor, and do not discredit the text in the least. There have also been translational errors, and once again, they are minor.

If you want the original Bible, then learn Latin, and read the Vulgate, because that has been the word of God for thousands of years. Or, learn Greek and read the LXX, since that was the scripture that the Apostle's quoted from. The KJV is a great translation, but it is in a form of English that we do not speak or understand fully anymore. It is like reading the Vulgate without knowing the Latin. Maybe not that extreme, but we no longer speak like a 16th century Englishman anymore. Our language has evolved. If you like the KJV, then read the NKJV. It is the KJV but translated in modern English.

But regardless of what you think about the KJV, you have not even said anything about what I mentioned about the errors in your post. Have you read 1 Cor. Do you realize the errors in the doctrines that you have suggested, saying that only Paul is our Apostle?

I find way too many KJVonliers who believe much error, and once again, I say flee the place that you are being fed such things. God is not honored by such things.

John
 
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NumberOneSon

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MC1171611 said:
...and there has never been an error found in my KJV

Then you simply haven't looked. I agree with Witness.

MC1171611 said:
The Latin Vulgate, translated by Jerome, a Roman Catholic, was the perversion used for centuries by the Catholics; I am not going to defile myself with something that was endorsed by the Roman harlot.

Hmmm...and which religious organization canonized the NT that you now have in your KJV? Which organization protected the Church from allowing Arius' heresies from permeating our scriptures? I guess you "defile" yourself evertime you open up your Bible because the Roman Church played an intrigal part in providing us with the books we accept as Holy scripture.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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Witness.

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MC1171611 said:
I have read the KJV for years, and as it is written on a 6th grade level, I have never had a problem with it, as long as I let it interperet itself. All of the other versions have used perverted manuscripts to back them up, and there has never been an error found in my KJV.

The Latin Vulgate, translated by Jerome, a Roman Catholic, was the perversion used for centuries by the Catholics; I am not going to defile myself with something that was endorsed by the Roman harlot.

The reason that I left the questions unanswered is that we will always come back to the Bible issue when you question the wording or readings in a passage. It is futile to carry on a discussion without a mutual Final Authority. I hope that God, in His infinite power, will show you His Book, and you will have the Faith to believe it.


Vince

As I said in the begining, nothing edifying will come out of a discussion between you and I. You asked for scriptures to show you how you are in error, and I showed them to you. I even used your favorite translation, though it is not my favorite, out of respect for the weakness of your faith. As I said, I have met your type before, and know that the errors of your ways, and the hardness of your heart will maintain that you always walk in error.

I hope that God removes the ignorance that clouds your vision of the truth of the scriptures, and the truth of Christ. Your words of hate are not born of the Holy Spirit. Jerome wrote the Vulgate around the time of the council of Carthage. Funny how you accept the decisions of canonicity that the so called "harlot" (your hateful words, not mine) determined, but do not agree with the translation that the early Church wrote.

All you do is support the fact that most KJV onliers have a trouble understanding the secondmost commandment of God. Please share your hatred and vitriol with someone else. I love my brother, and try to even love my enemy.

John

P.S. I have faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide me in the truth of the scriptures, regardless of whether that truth is what I want to hear, or not. You on the other hand, have a faith in an outdated translation, and the doctrines of man that you have been taught. Maybe someday you will understand the difference.
 
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MC1171611

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Witness. said:
As I said in the begining, nothing edifying will come out of a discussion between you and I. You asked for scriptures to show you how you are in error, and I showed them to you. I even used your favorite translation, though it is not my favorite, out of respect for the weakness of your faith. As I said, I have met your type before, and know that the errors of your ways, and the hardness of your heart will maintain that you always walk in error.

I hope that God removes the ignorance that clouds your vision of the truth of the scriptures, and the truth of Christ. Your words of hate are not born of the Holy Spirit. Jerome wrote the Vulgate around the time of the council of Carthage. Funny how you accept the decisions of canonicity that the so called "harlot" (your hateful words, not mine) determined, but do not agree with the translation that the early Church wrote.

All you do is support the fact that most KJV onliers have a trouble understanding the secondmost commandment of God. Please share your hatred and vitriol with someone else. I love my brother, and try to even love my enemy.

John

P.S. I have faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide me in the truth of the scriptures, regardless of whether that truth is what I want to hear, or not. You on the other hand, have a faith in an outdated translation, and the doctrines of man that you have been taught. Maybe someday you will understand the difference.

The cannozation of the New Testament by a religious organization has nothing to do with it's validity. My KJV makes more sense to me than any other mess that you can throw at me. And, if you call using the Bible term hateful, then you have got another thing coming. Maybe your translation doesn't use the word "harlot" in Revelation, but mine does, and it fits the Roman Catholic system to a T. I hate no one, but when someone calls my God a liar (2 Tim. 3:16; Ps. 12:6-7; 2 Pet. 1:21) and spits upon His Word, then I get a little upset.
 
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Palatka44

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It is so uncanny that a book that has stood through the tests of time and blood can be and is at the center of controversy in the very faith that once held it in its loving heart. Now at the last time it has become the "Two Edged Sword" that is dividing the very Church that once cherished it. It is despised by those who find Error. To the beholder a diamond is perfect and flawless, but to a cutter it has many fault lines yet though he cuts many times each shard is still perfect and flawless to the casual observer.
If one looks for fault lines they will find them in the KJV or any of the others that are claiming to be the Word of God with out error. It is to mine opinion that the errors are not in the KJV but in the hearts of those that can't understand it and likewise for those who can't understand why references to the blood, a firy everlasting judgement or any other denial of biblical truth has been removed.
No matter how many times the cutter cuts the diamond he will still find fault.
Now pick up that diamond and cherish it!
 
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ross3421

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Hedgehog said:
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.


People say this is speaking of the Holy Spirit.

How can it be? Will the Holy Spirit ever leave?

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

I see it as the Holy Spirit removed from off the earth. I believed this is seen as Christ shuts the door to it's inhabinants....Notice this occurs shortly prior to his return as we see the church is under tribulation and the door is still open.
Rev 3:18-20 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and he with me."

Below, prior to Christ’s return, sadly we see this "door" shut for evermore. This represents the Messiah being "cut off".

Luke 13:25,28 "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: V28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

Matt 25:10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterwards came also the other virgins, saying Lord Lord, open to us. But he answered and said , Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of Man cometh".

Also I see this in the OT as well....

Joel 1:5 "Awake ye drunkards, weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine; because of the "new wine"; for it is cut off from your mouth".

Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and destruction from the almighty shall it come".

We see above that it is the, "new wine", the Spirit of Truth which is cut off from mankind. We also see below these inhabitants searching "to and fro" for this "truth" however they are unable to find it and then again comes destruction. Furthermore "to and fro" is not a reference to people traveling across the earth as some falsely teach. Also note the famine of hearing the Spirit of Truth as it has been "cut off" from the inhabitants.

Amos 8:12 "Behold, the days come saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it".

Amos 9:5 "And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn...".


What with holdeth is the Spirit of truth, this occurs after every spirit filled believer has been overcome during the reign of the AC and just prior to Christ's return. I also do see an out pouring of the spirit during this time towards the remnant of Israel as in the "latter rain". If the spirit was present then there would be no need of the rain.....

In Christ, Mark.


 
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yeshuasavedme

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Did the presence of the glory of the Living Spirit of glory return to dwell in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity?

Was the Holy Spirit absent from the earth after the Presence of His glory departed the temple in Jerusalem, in Ezekiel chapters 1-11?

What is the difference between the Presence of His glory dwelling in a place and the presence of His Holy Spirit, Himself, on earth?

Where is the presence of His glory dwelling on earth at this time and when did He come in that Presence to dwell on this earth?

When the dwelling of His glory is gone from earth, will His Holy Spirit be gone?

Was the Holy Spirit ever absent from this earth, as the third Person of the YHWH of hosts, while His Presence of His glory was absent?

When Adam was created as a son of God was He indwelt with the Presence of glory in his being, as a temple of the Living Spirit?

When Adam ate the fruit and died, but did not cease to exist, was he 'not a son' of God, separated -dead- from that very moment?

What made Adam a son of God -and then 'not a son of God'- and we, his seed, needing to be born again of the Spirit of Adoption, to be a son of God again -as the first Adam was, at the beginning?

Why did Adam get his 'wings clipped' and not be able to appear before the YHWH of hosts when the sons of God appeared to give account -as seen in the book of Job?
What veiled -separated- Adam from the heaven where the throne of glory is?

Is the Holy Spirit the third Person of YHWH of hosts who is always with man on earth, in heaven, and in hell, until the judgment -and is the Presence of His glory the Presence of the unseen First Person of YHWH of hosts?

So when the Church is 'laqach' does the First Person's Presence go with them, to be gathered to the 'door of assembly' in the heavens (Psalm 75:2 -original Hebrew; and Isaiah 26:19-21; and 27:1-13; Numbers 10:1-7)?

Is the Holy Spirit, third Person, here, still, after the departure of the Presence of His glory 'in the tabernacle' that He has dwelt in since Pentecost?
 
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Witness.

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Palatka44 said:
It is so uncanny that a book that has stood through the tests of time and blood can be and is at the center of controversy in the very faith that once held it in its loving heart. Now at the last time it has become the "Two Edged Sword" that is dividing the very Church that once cherished it. It is despised by those who find Error. To the beholder a diamond is perfect and flawless, but to a cutter it has many fault lines yet though he cuts many times each shard is still perfect and flawless to the casual observer.
If one looks for fault lines they will find them in the KJV or any of the others that are claiming to be the Word of God with out error. It is to mine opinion that the errors are not in the KJV but in the hearts of those that can't understand it and likewise for those who can't understand why references to the blood, a firy everlasting judgement or any other denial of biblical truth has been removed.
No matter how many times the cutter cuts the diamond he will still find fault.
Now pick up that diamond and cherish it!

It is one thing to find flaws where there are none, and another to ignore flaws so that something is perfect when it is not. There is no perfect English translation of the Bible, but the flaws are negligable.

The KJV is a good translation, as are the NKJV, the NAS and NNAS, and the NIV. For those who are KJV onliers, they have not studied these other translations, nor are they scholars in the original languages.

On the day that I find a KJV onlier that has a true heart refined in agape, and who understands what love thy neighbor means, I will rejoice in that. Sadly, those who are, have hearts of stone, and do not show God's love in what they do. If the archaic form of English in the KJV causes someone to walk in error, then it is not the right translation for them.

John
 
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Rafael

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A clue to may be in the passages concerning Elijah who stopped the rain for 3 1/2 years. A similar incident is forseen for the end times. The two witnesses of God are seen defeated in revelations, and in Daniel we see the armies of heaven being restrained for what reason? Because of sin and traqnsgression in those who were to make the daily sacrifices to God. Malachi speaks about this - how the offerings were corrupt and unacceptable to God. How does the antichrist prevent the holy sacrifices to God? From within the Church by destroying sound doctrine just as it was in the Old Testament. Antiochus Epiphanes was a type of antichrist, and there is a duality show in Daniel of another who will come and prevent the offerings to God to be pure and Holy as they ought to be by corrupting from within.
Just another thought towards this topic, although I have not come to any complete conclusion, as God is all in all and can manifest the truth in so many ways in life.

Daniel 8:12 (NLT) But the army of heaven was restrained from destroying him for this sin. As a result, sacrilege was committed against the Temple ceremonies, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did.
13 Then I heard two of the holy ones talking to each other. One of them said, "How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s armies be trampled on?"
14 The other replied, "It will take twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be restored."

(AV) 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

It looks to me, that God rehearses everything that will come to pass in history by having it played out several times before the final acts are played out on the day of the Lord. Antiochus is a type or rehearsal of antichrist and the events that will take place on a grander scale in the last days, both spiritually and physically.
 
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workman

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USE THE WORD OF GOD TO INTERPRET THE WORD OF GOD...


HYPOTHESIS 1: CAN HOLY SPIRIT BE REMOVED?
..............................................................................................


Job 34:14-15
"If he should determine to do so,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust."

Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life."

Job 32:8
"But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding."

John 16:8-11 (speaking of the Holy Spirit)
"When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousnesss and judgment:
in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned."


LOGICAL CONCLUSION:
.........God's spirit cannot be what is "taken out of the way" in the last days.

WHY?>

If there is to be any repentance for the Jews or anyone on earth during the tribulation then the Holy Spirit will not be removed! The Holy Spirit is what "convicts" them of what sin is, righteousness is, and of the coming judgement. Since the Holy Spirit is given to believers as their comforter and the "deposit guaranteeing" the salvation that is to come (see: 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, and Ephesians 1:14) then one would be denying the tribulation saints of having the indwelling Holy Spirit. Logically this explanation is not sound and neither can the idea be proven by scripture. Its only a theory, but better ones exist.


HYPOTHESIS #2: THE CHURCH IS REMOVED
..........................................................................................


Would Christ remove the church?> Consider what the purpose of the church is:

Ephesians 9:10
"His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 Corinthians 3:16
"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?"

2 Corinthians 5:20
"We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God."

Romans 10:14-15
"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news."

LOGICAL CONCLUSION:
.........................If the church is the body of Christ to fulfill the great comission to "go into all the world and preach the good news" (Matt. 28:19-20) then who will preach if the church (in whom dwells the word of God and the Spirit of God) is gone? Would this not be counter productive?


Besides this...their is the context of scripure and phrases within the 1 Thes. verse that explains more...

I'll explain in another post.

God bless,

Workman :wave:
 
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ross3421

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workman said:
USE THE WORD OF GOD TO INTERPRET THE WORD OF GOD...


HYPOTHESIS 1: CAN HOLY SPIRIT BE REMOVED?
..............................................................................................

Workman,

Do not confuse "removed" with being "taken out of the way". The Holy Spirit with not cease but only to be "cut off" from the inhabinants of the earth. This happens very close to the return of Christ.

Joel 1:5 "Awake ye drunkards, weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine; because of the "new wine"; for it is cut off from your mouth".

Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and destruction from the almighty shall it come".

We see above that it is the, "new wine", the Spirit of Truth which is cut off from mankind. We also see below these inhabitants searching "to and fro" for this "truth" however they are unable to find it and then again comes destruction. Furthermore "to and fro" is not a reference to people traveling across the earth as some falsely teach. Also note the famine of hearing the Spirit of Truth as it has been "cut off" from the inhabitants.

Amos 8:12 "Behold, the days come saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it".

Amos 9:5 "And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn...".



LOGICAL CONCLUSION:
.........God's spirit cannot be what is "taken out of the way" in the last days.

WHY?>

If there is to be any repentance for the Jews or anyone on earth during the tribulation then the Holy Spirit will not be removed! The Holy Spirit is what "convicts" them of what sin is, righteousness is, and of the coming judgement. Since the Holy Spirit is given to believers as their comforter and the "deposit guaranteeing" the salvation that is to come (see: 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, and Ephesians 1:14) then one would be denying the tribulation saints of having the indwelling Holy Spirit. Logically this explanation is not sound and neither can the idea be proven by scripture. Its only a theory, but better ones exist.

Latter and Former Rain

Concerning Israel and the Holy Spirit. How did those in the OT prior to this comforter come to repentence? The Holy Spirit came upon them however his residence was not upon the earth until after the cross. This is a reference to the "former rain". The same will occur near the return of Christ as after the time of the Gentiles the Holy Spirit will be cut off however God will agian send a rain, the latter rain that his people may come to repentence.

Your statement of how will the so -called "tribulation saints" become saved without the Holy Spirit is valid however we need to understand the timing of WHEN the Holy Spirit is to be taken way.

The Spirit is taken away when the time of the gentiles is fullfilled and the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth. At this time there are no believers inhabiting the earth as they have been removed however not by rapture but by death.


In Christ, Mark.
 
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workman

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Hey Mark,

Thanks for your comments.

I want to share some scriptures with you and get your insight. I do not necessarily agree with your direct interpretation of the Holy Spirit being the 'latter and spring rains." I will break down my position into "points" just so its easier to find/read etc.

POINT ONE:

It would seem that the "word of God" ie: teaching via O.T. prophets as recorded scripture and possibly forshadowing the actual "Word" of God (Jesus) would be a better direct description of this "rain"...given the context of the passage of course.

Isaiah 55:9-11

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Deuteronomy 32:2
Let my teaching fall like rain and my words descend like dew, like showers on new grass, like abundant rain on tender plants.

Job 29:23
They waited for me as for showers and drank in my words as the spring rain.

Psalm72: 6 He will be like rain falling on a mown field,
like showers watering the earth.

Hosea 6:3

Let us acknowledge the LORD; let us press on to acknowledge him. As surely as the sun rises, he will appear; he will come to us like the winter rains, like the spring rains that water the earth."

1 Kings 8:35-36

"When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because your people have sinned against you, and when they pray toward this place and confess your name and turn from their sin because you have afflicted them,
then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your servants, your people Israel. Teach them the right way to live, and send rain on the land you gave your people for an inheritance."

Isaiah 30:19-21

19 O people of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. 20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."

Joel 2:23
Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness.
[Or / the teacher for righteousness: (footnoted)]
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.


Hebrews 6:7-9

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
POINT TWO:

Consider Israel is still looking for their "king" but not for the right king...he is hidden from their spiritually blind eyes for now. His words are not what they are looking for...so they are still looking. They did not acknowledge him as the anointed one from God, so they are still looking in vain for an anointed one. Remember Jesus also said,

John 7:34
You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

Perhaps this was prophetic of:

Proverbs 1:28-29

"Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.

29 Since they hated knowledge
and did not choose to fear the LORD,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONCLUSION:

Since the Holy Spirit and the Word of God work together with the church (Word of God =Sword of Spirit=Part of the Amor of God for his Saints/Church in whom the Word of God dwells by his Spirit. )

Purpose on earth for Spirit is to work through his church using the word of God: to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement then they will not be taken out of the way or 'cut off'. To cut this off would be to "cut off" hope for mankind. Several verses listed below discuss the fact that God's word endures forever etc. (you are possibly familiar with these...but it helps to consider the point I'm making. Its also good to share them with those who argue about the bible is insuffient or in error...Islam and Mormonism to name a couple.)

God's word will be available for those who humble themselves and acknowlege Jesus as the Messiah as the Holy Spirit testifies in God's Word. Those who don't are rejecting the Holy Spirit's testimony and thus condemning themselves to believe a lie that leads to utter distruction. I have a different theory as to what is removed, taken out of the way, etc.
But I am convinced it will not be the Holy Spirit, God's Word or the Church. Still to be discussed...later.

Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."

Psalm 12:6-7
“The words of the LORD are pure words… Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever”

Jeremiah 1:12
“ I am watching to see that my word is fulfilled."

Psalm 33:11
But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Proverbs 30:5
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

Ecclesiastes 3:14
… everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

Matthew 24:35
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

1 Peter 1:23-25
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bye for now,

Workman :wave:
 
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workman

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ross3421 said:
Concerning Israel and the Holy Spirit. How did those in the OT prior to this comforter come to repentence?

The Holy Spirit came upon them however his residence was not upon the earth until after the cross. This is a reference to the "former rain". The same will occur near the return of Christ as after the time of the Gentiles the Holy Spirit will be cut off however God will agian send a rain, the latter rain that his people may come to repentence.

TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION:
-------------------------------------

God accomplished his work of convicting of 'sin, righteousness and judgement' indirectly through the Holy Spirit in the OT. However the Holy Spirit did not come on everyone, but only on the prophets of God who then directly took the "word of God" to the people warning that they needed to 'repent' or get the ax so to speak. Jesus was the final "Word" of God that came to the people. This verse sums that up:

Hebrews 1

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."


HOW DID THE PEOPLE REACT TO THIS?
-----------------------------------------

OLD: Isaiah 30:10
They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.

NEW: 2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.



SO HOW DOES GOD RESPOND?
-------------------------------------------

OLD: Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

NEW: 2 Thess. 2
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Timothy 3:1-6
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.

OLD: Micah 3:6
5 This is what the LORD says:
"As for the prophets
who lead my people astray,
if one feeds them,
they proclaim 'peace';
if he does not,
they prepare to wage war against him.

6 Therefore night will come over you, without visions,
and darkness, without divination.
The sun will set for the prophets,
and the day will go dark for them.

7 The seers will be ashamed
and the diviners disgraced.
They will all cover their faces
because there is no answer from God."

NEW: Ephesians 4:18
They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

OLD: Ezekiel 7:26
Calamity upon calamity will come, and rumor upon rumor. They will try to get a vision from the prophet; the teaching of the law by the priest will be lost, as will the counsel of the elders.

Isaiah 29:9-11
9 Be stunned and amazed,
blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine,
stagger, but not from beer.

10 The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes (the prophets
he has covered your heads (the seers).

11 For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."

NEW: Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
-------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION: God still works using people (now through the church) to take his message of repentance and forgiveness to a loss, deceived and dying world. They are blind, not because the Holy Spirit is "cut off", or the church, or God's Word. In this context those who are blinded to the truth have done so by choosing to hold onto their wickedness and sin. Refusing to acknowledge the truth they believed the lie. So the Word of God is "sealed" to them. They cannot understand it. Humility, Repentance and fear of the Lord will be steps to UNDERSTANDING the truth. God creates that fear through punishment (much like a parent to a child who misbehaves, for God "disciplines those he loves").

Is this what you were trying to say? Maybe I misunderstood you?

Workman :)
 
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