U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

Ben johnson · May 24, 2002

every beleiver who has received this free and precious gift by grace thru faith in our Lord and Saviour. The issue seems to lie around the misunderstanding of GRACE and the significance of the shed BLOOD of our redeemer, and its FINALITY, in viewing the effects of sin upon a child of the living GOD.

I think the "issue", is (are?) several themes behind this. For example, I agree perfectly with the first sentence in the prior quote. But---from where comes that "faith"? The "OSAS" person says "From GOD". "OSNAS" says "from the man's HEART".

If "faith/belief-to-salvation" is from GOD, why does John say that "Jesus died for ALL"? "And Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not just for ours (we who HAVE received Him) only, but for those of the whole world (everyone ELSE who CAN receive Him)."

(So much for UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION!)

If salvation is "receiving Jesus" (Jn1:12,Col2:6), living with Him in our hearts and our SELVES crucified (Gal2:20), why is it a stretch to understand that we can, also, un-receive Him? What of all of the verses that say just that?

Caedmon · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
If "faith/belief-to-salvation" is from GOD, why does John say that "Jesus died for ALL"? "And Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not just for ours (we who HAVE received Him) only, but for those of the whole world (everyone ELSE who CAN receive Him)."

(So much for UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION!)

Umm, Ben?

You just indirectly, inadvertently advocated unconditional election.

Ben johnson · May 24, 2002

You just indirectly, inadvertently advocated unconditional election.

Heh heh, OK, how? If He died for us, AND the rest of the world? I thought PE taught that He only died for the elect...

BTW, was wonderin', who's that dog in your avatar? He yours? Cool lookin' dog. Dogs are better pets than cats. Call a dog, he COMES. Call a cat, he asks: "you got FOOD?"

Caedmon · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Heh heh, OK, how? If He died for us, AND the rest of the world? I thought PE taught that He only died for the elect...

What I mean is, Christ died for the Elect that are presently regenerated, AND for the Elect that have not yet, but will be, regenerated.

BTW, was wonderin', who's that dog in your avatar? He yours? Cool lookin' dog. Dogs are better pets than cats. Call a dog, he COMES. Call a cat, he asks: "you got FOOD?"

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Arrr, that be a grey wolf, "canis lupus", matey!!!
Aaaarrrrrrrrr...

But you're right. CATS DROOL AND DOGS RULE!!!

Lion Heart · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson

If salvation is "receiving Jesus" (Jn1:12,Col2:6), living with Him in our hearts and our SELVES crucified (Gal2:20), why is it a stretch to understand that we can, also, un-receive Him? What of all of the verses that say just that?

Ben,

I'm not going to spend much more time dancing with you on this subject.

This doctrine has been dissected by more intelligent people than myself.

From the question you have asked, I see you don't understand the positions that have been dileanated since the seventeenth century on the subject.

I can't believe a man can lose his salvation because the Bible does not teach it.

Having said that, I would encourage you to search the scritures to see if they teach what you seem to believe as the gospel truth.

I know that you have kicked around the following scriptures on the other 45 sum odd pages, arguing this point.

But I will give them to you anyway,

If any teaching in the Bible is crystal clear, it is that salvation is by GRACE through FAITH alone and that works of merit do not enter the picture at all;

I will leave it up to you to discern whether, a man willing himself to be saved whenever he decides to so is biblical, and/or whether Gods word teaches this at all.

Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 3:28
Romans 4:5-6
Romans 5:1
Romans 3:22-24
Titus 3:5
Philipians 3:9

What do all these scriptures mean? Only this?

Rom 5
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 4
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Heb 7
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I think you are confused about this subject, because you lump everything into one big pot.

Consider this verse;

2 Tim 2
15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

May God bless you as you seek Him in the WORD.

Richard

Lion Heart · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson

If "faith/belief-to-salvation" is from GOD, why does John say that "Jesus died for ALL "? "And Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not just for ours (we who HAVE received Him) only, but for those of the whole world (everyone ELSE who CAN receive Him)."

The ALL you are unable to see here, is the same All found in the following verse;

Jhn 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Richard

Candidus · May 24, 2002

Lion Heart,

The ALL I see in these verses are those that come to Christ. Those that trust in His work on the cross for their salvation are the ones that are given to Him.

It is the will of God that no one shall be turned away if they come to Christ. This is a desire (will) and not a decree (will) that is being spoken of here. It was the will of God that that none of the disciples would be lost, but even Jesus admits that the son of perdition was lost. "None were lost except for the son of perdition." To me, the context of the statement is not that Judas was always lost, but that he had to be a true disciple in order to be lost. Judas was "ordained" to preach and heal with the rest of the disciples, and was in the group when Jesus told them that they should not rejoice that they could perform miracles and healings, but they should rejoice that their manes were written in heaven. Judas was not excluded from the promise.

God is not willing that ANY should perish. If the will of God is always a decree, then we have a difficulty.

I do not pretend that you will accept this view for I believe that you are already decided on the issue. I only present it for the benefit of those who may wish to view it from another perspective.

ScottEmerson · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart
To those that subscribe to the Arminian point of view;

"The doctrine of eternal security is inherent in the doctrine of eternal life."

"Eternal security is a present possession of Eternal Life."

Both of these statements are true.

Why? Where is your scriptural proof that eternal life leads to eternal security? Is this a philosophical position?

As I understand it; both , Conditional and Undonditional Election, don't deny the gift of "Eternal Life", and this free gift should produce "Eternal Security" in every beleiver who has received this free and precious gift by grace thru faith in our Lord and Saviour.
The issue seems to lie around the misunderstanding of GRACE and the significance of the shed BLOOD of our redeemer, and its FINALITY, in viewing the effects of sin upon a child of the living GOD. Other factors seem to be at work here which reject not only this doctrine but other teachings of Scriptural doctrines. Most people that reject Eternal Security do so out of simple bias; simply being a christian is no guarantee that one will have correct beliefs on everything, especially if one never personally studies biblical or controversial issues in a systematic manner.

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That's a loaded statement - the statement that "most people accept eternal security do so out of simple bias" may be just as true.

If people don't like what the Scriptures teach, the issue is not what the scripture says but, what they wish to believe. No amount of Scripture, logic, or common sense will convince such people against their will.

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And the author of Hebrews sure believed that salvation could be lost. Jesus seemed to believe the same thing when he said that those branches who don't bear fruit will be cut off (how can they be part of the vine unless they have fellowship with him?)

Today many professing christians, reject the plain teaching, and abandon, the Word of God for tradition, or some other external added revelations, by popes, prophets, or other religious leaders perceived by them as having a devine intercessory pipline to God.

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Today many professing Christians reject the plain teaching and abandon the Word of God for what a guy named Calvin said. It can work both ways. Does it matter at all to you the theology of the majority of the church fathers before Augustine believed it was possible to lose their salvation?

Invariabily, when christians discuss this subject; it is steered into a discussion of whether an individual can lose his salvation and, then regain it again, and again, and again, and on and on. The reason this is so, is because the Conditional Election position emphasices that FAITH, is somehow produced by the individual and not a FREE GIFT, thereby, denying that salvation is entirely by GRACE, although those are not the exact words which are used by this side to explain the acquiring of salvation , this belief plainly is viewed as "BOASTING" by the other side, which contradicts the Scriptural teaching, that boasting is excluded not by observing the law, but by faith.

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Nope, after it's gone, it ain't coming back. The Bible clearly says so. HEre we go again - if we have free will, it's somehow prideful! Again, it is God who grants faith, but man still has a choice.

Of all issues, the matter of Eternal Security should be most important in the christians life, rather than whether or not a true believer can lose his salvation, given the scope of eternity, one would think this single topic should be of paramount importance to every Christian.

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I would say that following the Great COmmission should be most important, but perhaps that's an opinion thing.

Eternal Security is one of the great proofs that the Bible alone is a divine revelation. If it wasn't it would teach the same approach to salvation found in every man made religion inspired by demonic spirits. The idea that I have believed, and this is the part I played in my salvation, is a rejection of the gift of GRACE. Because it makes the atonement of Christ merely a means for all to potentially save themselves, such as is taught, that you must observe this or that sacrament or observance taught by that church.

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Okay. I'm going to write a Bible that says that if you choose to follow me, you're stuck! You can't lose it! There...now that has to be divinely inspired, right? That's just it - we CAN reject grace.

This then is an additional element added to GRACE which will now determine whether or not salvation occurs; this is called "Individual Performance"

Eternal Security then is the irrevocable and unfailing condition of Eternal Life guaranteed the true believer in Christ for both time and eternity.

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And not a single SCripture this entire time.

I would encourage all those that have never, considered the positions espoused by both sides herein to really study Gods Word, not commentaries on the subject, and let the Spirit of the Lord who is able to lead the honest seeker of the truth; to rightly divide the Word of truth, with regard to this doctrine.

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That may be a scary proposition, since before commentaries came out in the earliest parts of the Church, the vast majority of theologians believed that it was possible to lose one's salvation.

Interestingly enough, Arminius never completely believed it was possible to lose one's salvation. He did believe in the free will of the believer.The Remonstrants, after his death, put in their five points that it may be possible to lose one's salvation.

ScottEmerson · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart
By the way, I beleive that man has free will, but not in deciding whether he wants to be saved.

The scriptures plainly teach man is dead in sin and trespass.

Imagine a dead corpse; it hears nothing, it is unable to communicate, it can't even scratch an itch, let alone feel one, how can IT answer the call of God; UNLESS GOD CALLs HIM OUT BY NAME. (Eph 2:1)

This is what the Scriptures plainly teach, God is doing, while men are still in the flesh.

And can you show that everyone who hears HAS to respond in the affirmative in the Bible?

The call goes out few are chosen, there appears to be a difference between being called and being chosen.

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And doesn't it say that many are called?

We humans, act as if we know the deep mistries of God, and just because we see ourselves as being saved, we can ascertain with certainty who, how, and when God saves those that perish, this is nonsense, it is enough that he has shown us, how sinnful we are, and how necessary it is to come by faith, to a merciful God.

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And some humans act as if they know the deep mistries of God and deny that He could somehow give people a choice whether or not to choose salvation.

We contend that God in his infinite wisdon, calls all men to repent all the days of their lives while they live on the earth, and "has shown it to them" , for Peter said; "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." (Act 15:8-9)

It is only after we are saved, that we wonder about these things, and we because of pride, would even deny the Blood that bought us by HIS GRACE, by claiming we somehow did something to cinch the deal.

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So God calls all men - you just said that "how can IT answer the call of God; UNLESS GOD CALLs HIM OUT BY NAME. " So which is it? You can't have it both ways. Unless somehow, you can show that God can call and someone say "no."

ScottEmerson · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart
Final thought;

The doctrine of "Eternal Security", glories GOD.

We have been called to glorify GOD.

The doctrine, that teaches somehow you can lose your salvation, by commiting sin and then be saved again at will.

I thought we were arguing election here.

Goes against sound doctrine.

Heb10
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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haha! Did you even read that? The person was SANCTIFIED and counted the blood of the covenant. He does an unholy thing, and faces sorer punishment than who? So someone sanctified recieves sorer punishment? Hey, wait! I thought that once you were saved you were alsways saved? Hmmm...

Sobering Words...

Richard [/QUOTE]

ScottEmerson · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart

Scott,

I am not going to spend much time here, but notice the KJV of John3:17

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

The world here, is not a believing world; thats why the KJV says, "to condemn the world", somehow your version doesn't sound the same.

Read it again. I placed Reformationists definition of "world" in the place of the Greek word kosmos to show him the unlikelihood that John changes meaning of kosmos so closely to each other.

I looked at other verses that you have quoted herein, and I can see where the reader of your version may not be able to clearly see the Words being read in other versions and may cause some disagreement.

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I use the NIV. I also can bring forth the Greek if you want. If you have a different translation, you're more than welcome to post it.

Do you own a concordance?? and if you do, Do they match the words up to the original language?

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I have a Thayers and a Strongs. I also read Greek fairly fluently.

ScottEmerson · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart

The ALL you are unable to see here, is the same All found in the following verse;

Jhn 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Richard

Do you see a difference in "all men" and "all men who have red hair?"

Do these mean the same thing?

All Cats vs. all cats named Fluffy
All computers vs. All computers built be Macintosh
All sports teams vs. All sports teams in Bangladesh

There's a HUGE difference - and that's why you can't group "all men" with "all men who follow Christ." Doing so reads into Scripture your own a priori assumptions.

Lion Heart · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by Candidus
Lion Heart,
God is not willing that ANY should perish. If the will of God is always a decree, then we have a difficulty.

The verse 'God is not willing..." speaks for itself, men die in their sin, not because God wills it, but because they themselves have rejected the GIFT God has been offering ALL men thruought the ages. Their will is more important to them than GODS.

It is the will of God that no one shall be turned away if they come to Christ. This is a desire (will) and not a decree (will) that is being spoken of here. It was the will of God that that none of the disciples would be lost, but even Jesus admits that the son of perdition was lost. "None were lost except for the son of perdition." To me, the context of the statement is not that Judas was always lost, but that he had to be a true disciple in order to be lost. Judas was "ordained" to preach and heal with the rest of the disciples, and was in the group when Jesus told them that they should not rejoice that they could perform miracles and healings, but they should rejoice that their manes were written in heaven. Judas was not excluded from the promise..

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Concerning Judas, it is good to quote scripture, but not isolate verses, quoting them in their context and understanding them in the lite of the entire Gopsle message, does help.

Note what Jesus said concerning this man, Judas Iscariot the traitor:

Jhn 6
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Mt 26
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Lk 22
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

Jhn 13- Jesus identified him as the betrayer;
26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Even Judas, whom Jesus called a devil, wasn't aware;

Mt26
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

Would you say in the light of the scriptures, Judas was saved, because he repented himself? See MT 26:24

Mt 27
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

What Peter testified concerning, JUDAS.

Acts 1
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take.
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, show whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

In spite of having been pointed out by the Lord, that he was the one to betray HIM, Judas followed thru in this betrayal; because he excersized his own will, for thirty pieces of silver.

God will not save anybody against their WILL.

Richard,

Lion Heart · May 24, 2002

One more point, "the son of perditon" phrase is found twice in the New Testament.

Jhn 17
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition ; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2 Th 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Jhn 15
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

That Jesus chose them is a fact, That they were still in unbelief, even when he was nailed on the cross, is also a fact.

None of them believed until after his resurection.

So to state that Judas was saved in unbelief, before he betrayed Jesus, just because the scriptures declare, that he chose them, is a stretch.

The answer as I see it is found in the scripture where Jesus, says "one of you is a devil", it's obvious he refers to Judas, and by it indicates he is a son of the father of lies.

Richard

Lion Heart · May 24, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson

I thought we were arguing election here.

Scott,

Your right; you, are arguing.

Richard

Ben johnson · May 24, 2002

The verse 'God is not willing..." speaks for itself, men die in their sin, not because God wills it, but because they themselves have rejected the GIFT God has been offering ALL men throughout the ages. Their will is more important to them than GOD'S.

This is exactly the point (and you said that very well, BTW!)

PE believes that God saves SOME, and the rest perish BECAUSE God did not interfere (total depravity without God's active meddling). But the conflict is when Scripture says "He desires ALL to be saved". It seems much less contradictory to understand that "He provided Jesus-on-the-Cross" (THAT the great "mystery"), "that all who WILL believe, BE saved".

And all who WILL NOT, perish.

It's not God's fault!

Lion Heart · May 24, 2002

Ben, it's obvious the word "WILL" means many things to you, the way you toss it around liberally;

Acording to your understanding, God provides the means for every man to save himself.

When that man wills to believ he is saved.

When that man wills to sin, he loses his salvation.

And then when he wills to believe again he is saved again.

This person must not have any time to share the gospel with anyone, tending to own salvation.

Reminds me of the Pharasees.

How absurd.

I can understand why you are so confused.

The end.

Richard

ScottEmerson · May 25, 2002

Originally posted by Lion Heart

Scott,

Your right; you, are arguing.

Richard

All that work I did, and you refuse to answer it? Aw, man!

To recap, here are some questions:

Where is your scriptural proof that eternal life leads to eternal security?

Does it matter at all to you the theology of the majority of the church fathers before Augustine believed it was possible to lose their salvation?

And can you show that everyone who hears HAS to respond in the affirmative in the Bible?

Do you see a difference in "all men" and "all men who have red hair?"

Ben johnson · May 25, 2002

Richard, in my "contending for the faith" on this message board, in four or more threads, and on SEVERAL OTHER message boards, I do not always keept things straight. (I also can blame the "age-thing"...

) I have been conversing here with those who believe "God INSTALLS salvation on those whom He chose". When I hear you say, "God will not save anybody against their WILL.", I percieve that our beliefs are very close. (The "hyper-Calvinist" of course contends the same, but goes further in that God CHANGES men's wills!)

men die in their sin, not because God wills it, but because they themselves have rejected the GIFT God has been offering ALL men thruought the ages. Their will is more important to them than GODS.

Exactly that, Richard. This is not a challenge to "GOD'S ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY", but rather endorses the very Scriptural position, that BEING sovereign, He certainly CAN present salvation as "CHOOSABLE". It seems so obvious to me that the very ACT of Jesus on the Cross, was to make the PROVISION for salvation available to all. The point becomes---does man receive Jesus, through his own faith, or does man receive Jesus by the FAITH installed by GOD? It occurs to me, that the very passage that says: "They are therefore without excuse" decides the answer undeniably. If God interferes in the hearts of "TOTALLY-DEPRAVED-MEN", and ignores others to their own condemnation, then it no longer is honest to say "But they died BECAUSE OF REBELLION!" If they were TOTALLY DEPRAVED, and COULD NOT come to God UNLESS He installed faith/belief-to-salvation, THEN THEY HAD NO CHOICE!!!!!

But, "they were without excuse". It is their own fault. On their own shoulders. God is not to blame.

May I clarify some things you just said?
Acording to your understanding, God provides the means for every man to save himself.
Yes. No. God provides the means of salvation, man does not save himself. JESUS is the means of salvation. Each man need but to RECEIVE JESUS, as LORD and SAVIOR, to be saved.

When that man wills to believe he is saved.
No. When the Gospel causes conviction in his heart, when the truth of Jesus is RECOGNIZED, THAT is the source of the faith that receives Jesus. See Rom10:9, esp10:10.

When that man wills to sin, he loses his salvation.
No. Sin comes from "walking in the flesh". When sin PROLIFERATES, it deceives the person into unbelief. Thus, the "unbelieving one will not WANT to return to repentance/salvation" (Heb6:4ff). No one chooses to sin and reject Christ, it happens by deception. "They (false) seek to entice the true. If, after having ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome..."

And then when he wills to believe again he is saved again.
Yes. No. A man does not decide to believe, but a "cold, hardened, deceived-by-sin, heart, CAN become convicted again and return to belief". "And they, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again." "And another turn him back (to the Truth), he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved (been the vehicle through which the ONE SAVIOR, JESUS has saved them AGAIN) ...a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins." If not "former Christians returning to salvation", then what IS the meaning of James 5:19-20?

This person must not have any time to share the gospel with anyone, tending to own salvation.
Huh? If we are "diligent in our FELLOWSHIP with Christ, ABIDING IN HIM", that certainly does not preclude us from witnessing to others. Actually, for others to BELIEVE us, it must be real in our OWN hearts.

A few more comments of yours (I think you wanted me to deal with?)
If any teaching in the Bible is crystal clear, it is that salvation is by GRACE through FAITH alone and that works of merit do not enter the picture at all;
We agree perfectly. The only issue in question, between us, is "where does faith/belief-to-salvation, come FROM?"

I will leave it up to you to discern whether, a man willing himself to be saved whenever he decides to so is biblical, and/or whether Gods word teaches this at all.
I don't think a man WILLS himself to be saved. I think, from Scripture, that the word of Christ becomes real to his heart, he RECOGNIZES the truth of the Gospel, which creates the faith to receive Christ---and it is JESUS in his heart who does the WORK of salvation, THROUGH his faith...

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by GRACE (God's) through FAITH (man's) are you saved..."
Romans 3:28 "MAn is justified by faith apart from works of the law..."
Romans 4:5-6 (righteousness is not from works, bur from belief)
Romans 5:1 Justified by faith
Romans 3:22-24 God's righteousness is manifest in us, through our faith to all who believe...
Titus 3:5 We are saved according to His mercy, washed and regenerated through the Holy Spirit, throuh Jesus our Savior---who is received by our faith...
Philipians 3:9 our righteousness is not our own, but from believing in Christ, on the basis of our faith...

Lion Heart · May 25, 2002

Ben,

Ben,

You really don't beleive in Gods sovereignty, you just pay it lip service.

Your argument using the key verse you quote above, does not speak of a man who has come to faith in God.

When you take a verse you ought to read it in its context.

Notice the entire passage; I stopped where the context ends.

Rom 1
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

In the above passage, "they are without excuse", because,
"his eternal power and Godhead" are "are clearly seen"
(and can be understood by MAN); and

the natural man then goes on to not only ignore this, but to worship other gods,

And because they reject the GRACE of God, God gives them over to a reprobate mind; this is a mind incapable of not only not knowing but not able to recieve the things of GOD.

You don't have a grasp of what GRACE really is and you distort the GRACE of God and what the spirit teaches concerning GRACE.

Grace imparts faith,

Eph 2
1 And you hath he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

IN ORDER TO GRASP WHAT GRACE IS YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, SOMETHING ABOUT THE SIN THAT CAUSES THE SECOND DEATH, for its plainly made to undestand by the scriptures that man is dead in sin and trespass, though he be alive in the flesh.

Mankind sins, because they are born sinners; David said;

Psa 51
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Jesus said;

Mt 12
31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

"THE SIN OF BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY GOHST SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN UNTO MEN."

Let stop right here and, allow me to ask you what is this blasphemy against the Holy Gohst???

Richard

U/C Unconditional election vs. Conditional election

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