Mary: Theotokos?

Is it right to call Mary Theotokos?

  • Yes, but only in a theological sense

  • Yes, theologically and devotionally

  • No, it's blasphemous. God can't have a mother.

  • No, it's blasphemous and idolatrous

  • I've got no idea


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FearAndTrembeling

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Christians have recognized since the first century that the woman and her seed of Genesis 3:15 do not simply stand for Eve and one of her righteous sons, such as Abel or Seth. They prophetically foreshadow Mary and Jesus. The first half of the verse (speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman) has been applied to Mary, and so the second half (speaking of the crushed head and heel striking) also has been applied to Mary.

She, not anyone else, was the person who agreed to become the human channel through which Christ would enter the world in order to crush the serpent’s head (Luke 1:38). She herself was wounded when the serpent struck Jesus. Simeon had prophesied to her that "a sword will pierce through your own soul also," a prophecy fulfilled when Mary saw her Son hanging from the cross (John 19:25–27).

Thus Jesus directly crushed the serpent and was directly struck by the serpent, while Mary indirectly crushed it and was indirectly struck by it, due to her cooperation in becoming the mother of Christ.

Therefore, though the she/her and he/his readings of Genesis 3:15 are different, both are true, and Catholics have long recognized this. A footnote provided a couple of hundred years ago by Bishop Challoner, in his revision of the Douay-Rheims version, state, "The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head." (For more information, see A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, Bernard Orchard, O.S.B., ed. [New York: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1953], p. 186.)
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9709chap.asp

Well now you know, that whatever theologen wrote this, is wrong. And stands corrected.
 
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livingproofGM

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When we give this high honor (in Greek called hyperdulia) to Mary, we do no more than Paul did. In Galatians 4:4–5 Paul says, "When the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons." Why would Paul think it necessary to emphasize that God’s Son was "born of woman"? On a purely physical level, it is obvious that any man is born from a woman. But Paul is saying something deeper. By speaking of the woman, he is alluding to Genesis 3:15, which says, "I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The woman in Genesis 3:15 is clearly Eve, and Paul is drawing a parallel between Eve and the woman from whom God’s Son was born.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312sbs.asp
 
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5stringJeff

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Llauralin said:
So we really worship three gods? Or are you saying Mary is mother to a part of God? That just sounds incredibly disrespectful of God.... I don't really understand what you're getting at here; no one says that Mary is the mother of the Trinity, but that since Jesus is fully God, that His mother cann accuratly be called Theotokos.

All I'm saying is that, based on the arguments I've laid out above, it is questionable whether she can be called "Mother of God." It is not questionable whether Mary is the Mother of Christ, nor is it questionable whether Mary should be considered blessed (even the Bible says that she is).
 
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FearAndTrembeling

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Why would Paul think it necessary to emphasize that God’s Son was "born of woman"? On a purely physical level, it is obvious that any man is born from a woman. But Paul is saying something deeper. By speaking of the woman, he is alluding to Genesis 3:15, which says, "I will put enmity between you [the serpent] and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel

When Jesus referred to Himself as "the Son of Man" was He not also saying that He was born of a woMan? But it was God who conceived Christ in "woMan" I have showed you why the "Woman" in Gen 3 can only be "The children of Promise"

Seth is a picture of all the true believers. Just as Able was a picture of a true believer(a child of promise), but was slain, so also Seth was a picture all the children of promise as well. And because it was God who inclined Seth's heart unto God, and to all generations of Seth's SEED(the seed of promise), even down to Abraham, the unto David, then unto Mary so Mary did give birth to Christ - the fulfillment of the promise of God.

But how can claim be given to Mary as being sinless when we read very plainly.

Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
 
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livingproofGM

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FearAndTrembeling said:
Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
St. Paul is quoting Psalm 14. When he quotes the OT, St. Paul always respects the original text. He never twists a verse to mean something opposite from what the author intended. So what did King David mean by, "there is none that does good, no, not one" (verse 3)? David is lamenting widespread rebellion in Israel. David's enemies are not just the Gentile nations, but also fellow Israelites such as Absalom and Saul, members of his own covenant family. David is using "all" in the collective sense of including large proportions of each group (Jews as well as Gentiles), not in the distributive sense of including each and every individual. We know this because David immediately distinguishes "all the evildoers" from "my people" and "the generation of the righteous." If absolutely "no one" is righteous, how can David refer to "the generation of the righteous"?<---Beginning Apologetics 6
 
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Lynn73

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livingproofGM said:
We do not bow to her statues. Kneeling in front of one to pray and ask her intercession is completely different from worshipping. And we do not pray to the statue. It is just there to remind us of heavenly things. Mary is one of those.

I'm afraid I see something different. I, as well as others, see something being done that the Bible says not to do and as long as you continue to do it, you'll find there'll be those of us who continue to believe you worship Mary.
 
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FearAndTrembeling

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We know from the Bible that the "righteous" can only be the ones that God has elected to save. Those who would come to understand Christ, and believe on Him through the hearing of God's word.

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Again the generation of the righteous are not those who obtain it by there will, or their own sanctity, but to those who are called according to His purpose - the Children of Promise - The Blessed Elect of God, Who were predestinated unto good works of love in Christ.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


There are none that seeketh after God, all have sought there own righteousness.



Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Just as the enmity exist between the children of promise(the righteous - who begot Christ), and the children of the devil (the wicked who begot lies, and death), SO DOES the "genertation of the righteous" co-exist with the "genertaion of viper's - the wicked generation".

Matthew 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 12:45 - Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
 
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livingproofGM

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Lynn73 said:
I'm afraid I see something different. I, as well as others, see something being done that the Bible says not to do and as long as you continue to do it, you'll find there'll be those of us who continue to believe you worship Mary.
Images of God's victorious saints remind us of Jesus and His saving deeds. No good Catholic thinks he is worshipping Mary by kneeling before her image in prayer. Do you honestly think that Catholics can't tell the difference between the God of the universe and painted plaster?
 
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livingproofGM

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FearAndTrembeling said:
We know from the Bible that the "righteous" can only be the ones that God has elected to save. Those who would come to understand Christ, and believe on Him through the hearing of God's word.

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Again the generation of the righteous are not those who obtain it by there will, or their own sanctity, but to those who are called according to His purpose - the Children of Promise - The Blessed Elect of God, Who were predestinated unto good works of love in Christ.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 9:16 - So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


There are none that seeketh after God, all have sought there own righteousness.



Isaiah 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Just as the enmity exist between the children of promise(the righteous - who begot Christ), and the children of the devil (the wicked who begot lies, and death), SO DOES the "genertation of the righteous" co-exist with the "genertaion of viper's - the wicked generation".

Matthew 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:41 - The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 12:45 - Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

You are missing the point. The word "all" in Romans 3:23, as well as in Romans 3:9-10, is used in a collective, not distributive, sense. St. Paul is saying (Rom 3:23) that there is no distinction between circumcised Jews and non-circumcised Gentiles: both groups commit personal sins and both need to be justified by faith. There are exceptions, you must admit, to Romans 5:12 and 5:18-19, where Saint Paul teaches that all men inherit the sin of Adam (original sin). Jesus, Adam, and Eve are exceptions to this. We believe that Mary, the New Eve, is also an exception.
 
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FearAndTrembeling

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Jesus, Adam, and Eve are exceptions to this. We believe that Mary, the New Eve, is also an exception.

There no biblically sound doctrine that teaches that Mary is the "new" Eve. It is an imagination, and wanting.

I have showed you through scripture the correct understanding of the "Woman" in Gen 3. And have showed you how it harmonizes with the rest of the Bible, and testifies again that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore it is biblically sound and can only be corrected by scripture. We only have truth when it all harmonizes with everything else the Bible teaches. Search it out through scripture.

John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.


2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Jeremiah 9:12-16 12 Who is the wise man, that may understand this? and who is he to whom the mouth of the LORD hath spoken, that he may declare it, for what the land perisheth and is burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through? 13 And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; 14 But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them: 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. 16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.


Isaiah 28:7-15 7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

I pray that all who hear will come to trust alone in the Lord.
 
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livingproofGM

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FearAndTrembeling said:
There no biblically sound doctrine that teaches that Mary is the "new" Eve. It is an imagination, and wanting.
The NT requires that we read the OT in a typological sense. Consider:
1) In Matthew 12:40, Jesus teaches that Jonah's 3 days in the belly of the great fish foreshadowed Jesus' 3 days in the tomb.
2)In John 3:14, Jesus says that the bronze serpent of Numbers 21:19 symbolized His crucifixion.
3)In 1 Peter 3:19-21, St. Peter points out that the flood in the time of Noah prefigured Christian baptism.
4)In 1 Cor 10:4, St. Paul calls the rock that followed the Israelites in the desert "Christ." Notice he does not say the rock was "like" Christ; St. Paul says the rock WAS Christ. He uses this language to stress that the relationship between a type and it's NT fulfillment is more than a similarity.
5)In Romans 5:14, St. Paul specifically calls Adam a type of Christ.
These examples show how the NT teaches that in the OT persons and events, we are to see doctrines that are made more explicit in the gospel.
There are three major types of Mary: Eve, the Ark of the Covenant, and the Queen Mother.<----Beginning Apologetics 6
 
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5stringJeff

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pjw said:
gopjeff, i'll repeat: what if theotokos=bearer of God, not mother of God?

I believe my argument would remain the same. Mary did not bear (as in, give birth to) the Holy Spirit, nor did she bear God the Father.
 
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lmnop9876

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I believe my argument would remain the same. Mary did not bear (as in, give birth to) the Holy Spirit, nor did she bear God the Father.
do you happen to believe Christ was God at the same time He was man? if He was, then Mary bore God after His human flesh, as the Definition of Chalcedon puts it.
 
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livingproofGM

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gopjeff said:
I believe my argument would remain the same. Mary did not bear (as in, give birth to) the Holy Spirit, nor did she bear God the Father.
Once again Luke 1:43: "Who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to me.?" Matthew 1:23: "Behold, a virgin shall concieve and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel (God with us) When the eternal Son of God became man, he assumed a human nature. Thus He could be born of a woman, just as we are.<----Beginning Apologetics 6
 
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Llauralin

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gopjeff said:
All I'm saying is that, based on the arguments I've laid out above, it is questionable whether she can be called "Mother of God." It is not questionable whether Mary is the Mother of Christ, nor is it questionable whether Mary should be considered blessed (even the Bible says that she is).
*Frustrated* I still don't really understand your point... Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is not part God, but IS God, as the Father and Spirit are also God. How could it therefore be said that Mary is not the mother of God???

I'm honestly confused here on how Jesus can be God without His mother being the mother of God.
 
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FearAndTrembeling said:
There no biblically sound doctrine that teaches that Mary is the "new" Eve. It is an imagination, and wanting.
Not even close.
I have showed you through scripture the correct understanding of the "Woman" in Gen 3.
Wrong. You have showed us through Scripture YOUR understanding of the 'Woman' in Gen 3. What makes you think that you, an individual human, can interpret the Scriptures better than the Church that Christ founded?
And have showed you how it harmonizes with the rest of the Bible, and testifies again that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore it is biblically sound and can only be corrected by scripture. We only have truth when it all harmonizes with everything else the Bible teaches. Search it out through scripture.
The Church has been searching through Scripture for two thousand years. I'll trust their interpretation over any individual.
2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Oh, not this old trout again. All flour is useful for making bread. Does that mean all you need for bread is flour?
 
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