Rebellion

FreeinChrist said:

No, the passage in Isaiah 11 describe the millennial kingdom, during which Satan is bound.

What happens after he is thrown into the lake of fire is this:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer {any} sea.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be {any} death; there will no longer be {any} mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."




We have a millennial kingdom to look forward too, and then after Satan's last attempt to cause rebellion, we have an eternity in the New Jeusalem - forever and ever.


Look at Zechariah 14 better. It doesn't say that nobody sins. Everyone is required to go to jerusalem once a year to wroship the King who is Jesus. Those who do not are are punished.

Another important point - Zechariah 14 indicates that there aren't many left after the Second Coming. "Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up year to year to worship the King." (Zech. 14:16).

Yet, when Satan is released from the abyss and stirs rebellion, so many follow that "the number of them will be like the sand of the sea." People are born during the 1000 yrs.
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But your premise is wrong. Satan is bound for 1000 years, but sin is not out of existence durring the millenial reign. Those that are born during the millennial reign will have a human nature.


What I have not seen you do is prove that Satan is bound and has no influence on this earth. I don't know why you are working so hard to prove that.
What is your endtime postion? Are you amillennial or preterist?

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I believe one needs to carefully read Isaiah etc, in such a manner as to
properly identify what it says and what it does not say about the 1000 years. I will discuss more of that later but please note that the Bible really
keeps silent about the intricacies of human will during the 1000 years.

In your own words--Satan is bound for 1000 years, but sin is not out of existence durring the millenial reign

Hence from your view even if He is bound, you are of the opinion that He would STILL have influence on this earth.

Hence how do you explain Satan's influence by causing sin
to exist even during the 1000 years , since sin is NOT OUT OF EXISTENCE in your understanding of that period.

Lets approach it from another perspective. Say I am trying
to understand your view. I would have 2 conflicting issues.

1-- Since sin exists today , it means Satan is not bound

2-- However, EVEN IN THE FUTURE ( going along with your view) when Satan is bound SIN IS STILL IN EXISTENCE ON EARTH because millions follow him after the 1000 years--

BANG goes the logic about Sin being evidence that Satan is sealed and bound BECAUSE WE HAVE PROVED THAT even
at a time the Bible says He is sealed, you clearly agree that
Sin still exists on earth.

So we cannot USE THE EXISTENCE OF SIN ON EARTH, AS A MEANS OF EVALUATING WHETHER OR NOT SATAN is sealed .. because whether He is sealed or not, SIN STILL EXISTS as seen in your view of the future 1000 years. Even when you say He is sealed, He still exerts sin influence so no one can use the presence of sin, to confirm whether Satan is sealed or not.

The presence of sin on earth IS NOT A RELIABLE factor to
use when confirming or judging whether or not Satan is sealed in the bottomless pit.

I will clarify my point about Isaiah etc later.

I am not a preterist by the way.

FreeinChrist said:

at what point in history did the status of Christianity change so that we - unlike Paul and Peter, and those of their day - no longer have to resist the devil or armor ourselves against spiritual forces, or that our fight is no longer with evil spiritual forces, as stated in the above passages??
When did these scriptures stop applying to those in the church?

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Comparing what scriptures apply to believers today and what does not

apply seems to be a spiritually lacking manner to approach God and to submit to His will.

The impression created is as though you ARE ENVIOUS of the fact that Satan is seen very active at that time... so you would tend to HOPE Satan is equally active today so that
Christians today can FALL BACK on saying that Satan is the one influencing their errors and make use of scriptures like Ephesians etc.

It is God's intent that matters, and NOT seeking TO MATCH what applies

to Christians today with whatever Satan was doing back then.

What scriptural spiritual benefit does one obtain by COMPARING what kind forces of evil applied to humans in the 1st century?

Looking back and picking at what applied to humans centuries ago

and evaluating whether or not it applies to people today is a

non-spiritual method of mechanically selecting and understanding scriptures.

The Spirit leads and guides and your submission then opens up the truth.

Let us leave what applied to which believers in the 1st century alone, for

centuries have passed since then and our world is definitely not experiencing

Global repressive pagan emperors, large scale subjugation of nations to

some central king etc.

What lies ahead of us may not necessarily relate or match to any similarities/non similarities in what applied back then to our condition.

Which scriptures ENCOURAGE the COMPARISON STUDY that you are using at all? I see little basis in that approach.

FreeinChrist said:

Mylene, the passages that are addressing what will happen to the nation of Judah and is written in the OT and is also fulfilled in the OT, then we just need to know and look for appliction to our own lives.

Some books are history, some are prophecy, and some are letters to the church of Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote his letters after the resurrection of Christ...and toward the end of his ministry on earth. Why wouldn't they apply today to the church?
What Chrisian church believes they don't apply?


Frankly, I find the concept that they don't apply to the church to be very unorthodox and perhaps a symptom of how spiritual forces of wickedness are working to undermine the church.
(no - I am not insinuating anything about you personally. I am speaking in a general sense).

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Hi,

There is no question about the fact that Paul's letters applied to the Church

and continued applying to the chuch for many centuries.

What seems to be uncertain is at which point in time, God himself initiated
certain events that we people may not have visually seen.

What applied to the Church from post 64AD to 300AD through 1600AD and well after that till later , would obviously not be static forever but from scriptures, some change would occur especially as Satan is not free to roam forever.
That time limit on Satan's freedom would thus set the time limit
on which verses would also be temporarily applicable.

There is no question , though,that Paul's words applied to the Church

for many centuries.

FreeinChrist said:

I asked for any scripture to back up why we shouldn't need to arm ourselves

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Hi ,

The horrors of crime, rampant vandalism and many more are more than enough reason why we will always need to arm ourselves against unholiness...

Satan's status notwithstanding.

It would be risky not to arm oneself against human flesh evils of greed, hatred etc, even if Satan were sealed in the bottomless pit.

We really need to arm ourselves.

What could also confuse many is where Revelation places its events in reverse order , back to front at times. That could mislead into thinking certain events are in the future or after Rev 19. We see that Rev 19:15 onwards has verses actually placed in reverse order in earlier Revelation chapters BEFORE Rev 17.

So no one knows when Revelation 20:1-3 takes place.

FreeinChrist said:

Paul specifically says we fight not against flesh and blood, but against "spiritual forces of wickedness". I believe we still do.



huh? That is nonsensical.
There is no reason to believe that Rev. 19:15 onward is reversed.

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Flesh and blood will send many into the lake of fire.

Hence, we would be well advised to avoid laxity in that regard.

Revelation 16 does mention Rev 19. It would be beneficial for you

to carefully evaluate the verses. It seems the Bible must be left to speak for itself.

ASSIST News Service (ANS) - PO Box 2126, Garden Grove, CA 92842-2126 USA
Web Site: www.assistnews.net - by permission


ISRAEL ATTACKED IN WORLD COURT BY NEARLY 60 COUNTRIES
Jewish state isolated amid international concern over security barrier

By: Stefan J. Bos
Special Correspondent, ASSIST News Service

JERUSALEM / THE HAGUE (ANS) -- Israel appeared increasingly isolated Wednesday, February 25, as two blocs representing dozens of Muslim countries and 20 percent of the worlds' population supported a Palestinian challenge to the legality of Israel's West Bank barrier.

The Arab League and Organization of the Islamic Conference, which represents over 50 countries, told the World Court in The Hague, The Netherlands, that Israel's security wall cuts into territories where Palestinians seek to establish an independent state.

The Palestinian delegation also received backing from Jordan which took a leading role in Arab opposition to the barrier despite its peace treaty with Israel. Jordan said it fears a destabilizing influx of Palestinian refugees.

Cuba and Indonesia, whose own human rights records have come under international criticism, also joined the opposition, and called on the court to declare the structure illegal.

Arab League official Michael Bothe was among the last speakers on the third and final day of the hearings in what is seen as one of the most watched cases in the court's 58-year history. He warned the World Court's 15 judges that the barrier presented "the Berlin Wall episode" which he stressed "was dubbed the wall of shame."

Israel has stayed away from the trial, disputing the court's right to rule in the case.

But Israelis, including those who lost husbands, wives and children in suicide bombings, joined the battle for world opinion outside the court building, known as the Peace Palace.

Armed with hundreds of pictures of victims killed in suicide attacks and the skeleton of a recently bombed bus, bereaved Israelis were holding street rallies and a mock "hearing".

EMOTIONAL FATHER

Among the victims was an emotional father who recently lost his daughter in one of the many suicide attacks that have rocked Israel in recent times.

He and other demonstrators said the 700 kilometers long barrier now under construction was the only way to at least reduce terrorism and save the lives of Israeli children and other innocent people.

"We are here because we feel so outraged," explained Arnold Roth, who represented the demonstrating victims. "Not many people seem to understand that we need to protect our families. There is nothing more important for us."

However Palestinian delegates claimed the barrier violates international law. Palestinian Ambassador Nasser al Kidwa told the World Court this week that Israel's series of fences and walls at the edge of the West Bank amount to an illegal land grab before borders can be set for a future Palestinian state.

"This wall is not about security. It is about extending the occupation and the de facto annexation of a large number of territories of Palestinian lands," he argued.

The court's 15 judges are expected to issue their opinion within months. That ruling is non-binding, but analysts say it could influence world opinion.

Palestinians hope it will pave the way for international sanctions against Israel. However the European Union and the United States appear reluctant to impose sanctions because of fears they could further harm peace efforts in the volatile region.

"INTERNATIONAL CIRCUS"

Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has described the court hearings as "an international circus" and pledged to continue the construction of the controversial barrier no matter what the judges will decide.

He says the structure is the only way to keep at least some terrorists outside the Jewish state, where people are mourning victims of another suicide blast this weekend which killed at least 8 people within sight of Jerusalem's Old City walls.

Those killed include the brother in law of a staff member of the Israeli Consulate in The Hague, which planned a week of protests to boost support for the barrier which it believes will keep out the bombers.

"Nothing justifies the construction of the fence more strongly than Sunday's bus bombing," said Israeli Ambassador Eitan Margalit, according to news reports. (Pictured: Scene around the burned-out bus -- photo from ICEJ web site).

“While the world debates the fence, Israel buries its dead,” added the Israeli emergency fund One Family in a statement monitored by the Jerusalem based International Christian Embassy Jerusalem (ICEJ) News Service.

Christians joined Jews as schoolchildren, rescue workers; residents and blast victims were shown the freshly completed section of the controversial barrier this week.

“It is not a political message,” ICEJ spokesman David Parsons told the crowd on behalf of the capital’s Christian community. “It's personal,” he added. (Pictured: View from inside the burned-out bus -- photo from ICEJ web site).

CHRISTIANS FOR ISRAEL

"There are many Christians living in this city that ride the buses, sit in the cafes (and) get invited to Bar Mitzvas," the ICEJ News Service quoted him as saying.

"It’s a Holy Land to Christians and Jews and we’re all going to feel a little safer as this fence gets built." The ICEJ aims to support the return of Jews to Israel and assist those in need.

However Lola Cohen, a pensioner who lost a close friend in a June 2002 bus attack, warned that nothing can fence out the hostility directed towards Israel. "I’m angry that the world criticizes us for building something to defend ourselves… and hurt,” she told the ICEJ News Service.

In Ramallah, Palestinian Authority officials have come out on the offensive, amid reports that the latest attack was carried out by terrorists linked to their own governing Fatah faction.

The ‘settlement wall’ will not bring security or peace to the region, Palestinian President Yasser Arafat warned in a televised address Monday, February 23, an opinion reflected by his delegates insight the courtroom in The Hague.

Daniel Taub, an Israeli foreign ministry observer at the court, said Israel had been right to stay away because the case was one-sided, the Reuters news agency reported. "The silence of the suffering of the victims of terrorism inside the court is deafening," Taub was quoted as saying.

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Just a quick reminder

The 15 judges, now deliberating their verdict, will soon stand before the Judge of all Earth, & give account for every idle word spoken in secret

"What men whisper...will be proclaimed from the rooftops"

The fact that TV aerials are on rooftops is only a partial fulfilment of that

Psalm 139 makes it abundantly clear that there is nowhere in the universe to hide from God

Rebels who refuse to repent face "treading the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God"

Jeremiah 31:31/34, Ezekiel 36, Zechariah 14, etc show the Almighty Creator firmly promising to restore the Jews to the land of Israel in the climax generation of all history, which will see Messiah return & rule Earth with a rod of iron from Zion

He also promised them that once restored there, the Jews will never again be displaced from HIS Holy Land, HIS holy mountain, HIS holy city

The King of kings & Lord of lords outranks the UN & the World Court

By far

With the whole world turning more & more against Israel & the Jews, it is wise to recall that Armageddon is when & where Christ slaughter the armies of Earth, under Antichrist, for daring to invade Israel & attack Jerusalem

"Every knee will bow & every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

Some in absolute adoration

Most in sheer terror

"Choose, this day, who you will serve - as for me & my house: we will serve the Lord!"