Evolution can't explain the eye? Heck, creationists can't explain *anything*.

Pete Harcoff

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I find it very odd that some creationists hold a remarkable double-standard when it comes to the explanatory power of evolution versus creationism. They'll say stuff like "I think it takes more faith to believe in evolution than God!" Yet they ignore the fact that science, including evolution, actually seeks explanations. And not just "evolution did blah", but trying to come up with probable ways and mechanisms in which evolution can do things. Hence, you have everything from observing evolution directly[sup]1,2,3[/sup] to constructing probable scenarios of evolutionary pathways[sup]4,5,6[/sup] to computer modeling[sup]7[/sup].

In comparison, what do the creationists do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They'll just go on and on about how utterly amazing everything is like some starry-eyed teeny-bopper at a Clay Aiken concert and invoke God at every turn. But it's meaningless. Invoking the supernatural willy-nilly just hides everything in a giant black box. There's no explanations. Just a vacuous answer involving some untestable omnipotent being that happened to do something at some point that resulted in stuff. There's no knowledge to be gained and no applications to derive. Just an endless string of gushing for how awesome the Creator is.

Of course, the creationists might argue that they're really trying to save your immortal soul from terrible damnation. That's nice and all, but why debate evolution over it? Couldn't we just separate the religion from all this science stuff? If scientists have hit upon certain theories and explanations in the bio-sciences that happen to bear fruit[sup]8[/sup], why rock the boat? Just let 'em do what they do and try to impart your offering of eternal bliss in a way that doesn't needlessly tangle it up with a bunch of science. Don't create controversy where there needn't be one.

In the end, creationism is a black box. A black box that tantalizes with promises of mystical revelations about the greatest secrets of the universe. But it's still just a black box. No real explanations at all.


1 Genomic evolution during a 10,000-generation experiment with bacteria
2 Identification of mutations conferring insecticide insensitive AChE in the cotton-melon aphid, Aphis gossypii Glover
3 The number of mutations selected during adaptation in a laboratory population of Saccharomyces cerevisiae
4 Evolution in (Brownian) space: a model for the origin of the bacterial flagellum
5 A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve.
6 Evolution of the heart from bacteria to man.
7 The evolutionary origin of complex features
8 Evolutionary Biology: Technology for the 21st Century
 
Q

QubeMaster

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I find it very odd that some creationists hold a remarkable double-standard when it comes to the explanatory power of evolution versus creationism. They'll say stuff like "I think it takes more faith to believe in evolution than God!" Yet they ignore the fact that science, including evolution, actually seeks explanations. And not just "evolution did blah", but trying to come up with probable ways and mechanisms in which evolution can do things. Hence, you have everything from observing evolution directly1,2,3 to constructing probable scenarios of evolutionary pathways4,5,6 to computer modeling7.

In comparison, what do the creationists do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They'll just go on and on about how utterly amazing everything is like some starry-eyed teeny-bopper at a Clay Aiken concert and invoke God at every turn. But it's meaningless. Invoking the supernatural willy-nilly just hides everything in a giant black box. There's no explanations. Just a vacuous answer involving some untestable omnipotent being that happened to do something at some point that resulted in stuff. There's no knowledge to be gained and no applications to derive. Just an endless string of gushing for how awesome the Creator is.

Of course, the creationists might argue that they're really trying to save your immortal soul from terrible damnation. That's nice and all, but why debate evolution over it? Couldn't we just separate the religion from all this science stuff? If scientists have hit upon certain theories and explanations in the bio-sciences that happen to bear fruit8, why rock the boat? Just let 'em do what they do and try to impart your offering of eternal bliss in a way that doesn't needlessly tangle it up with a bunch of science. Don't create controversy where there needn't be one.

In the end, creationism is a black box. A black box that tantalizes with promises of mystical revelations about the greatest secrets of the universe. But it's still just a black box. No real explanations at all.

If you are judging all Christians by the way you see some people on CF debate, I'm afraid you really haven't read any Christian scientific documents. There are Christians out there that actually do know what they are talking about, and they give due credit to their Creator. The thing about evolutionists is that they completely by pass the information and don't even consider the possibility that there is a Creator out there. They insult, they ignore facts, they change the subject. they ignore evidence no matter how much Christians give them. And I find this trend growing more and more. Do SOME Christians debate poorly, yes they do, but that doesn't entitle them to be ridiculed. Because, from our perspective, you are the ones in the box, closed off to all reality, ignoring the facts and the truth.
 
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nvxplorer

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QubeMaster said:
If you are judging all Christians by the way you see some people on CF debate, I'm afraid you really haven't read any Christian scientific documents.
Your “if” was addressed in the opening sentence:

I find it very odd that some creationists...
 
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mikeynov

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QubeMaster said:
If you are judging all Christians by the way you see some people on CF debate, I'm afraid you really haven't read any Christian scientific documents. There are Christians out there that actually do know what they are talking about, and they give due credit to their Creator. The thing about evolutionists is that they completely by pass the information and don't even consider the possibility that there is a Creator out there. They insult, they ignore facts, they change the subject. they ignore evidence no matter how much Christians give them. And I find this trend growing more and more. Do SOME Christians debate poorly, yes they do, but that doesn't entitle them to be ridiculed. Because, from our perspective, you are the ones in the box, closed off to all reality, ignoring the facts and the truth.

Quick checklist:

* Evolution != atheism.

* Creationists have never proposed a single piece of evidence which is a serious threat to evolution, ever, in the history of creation science. I'm guessing you can't either.

* Creationists have to ignore the state of the art in almost every major branch of science (including biology, chemistry, geology and physics), so accusing "evolutionists" (which translates to mean 'almost all qualified scientists in every major branch of science') of doing what creationists do 24 hours a day is hypocritical to the highest degree.
 
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Q

QubeMaster

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Quick checklist:

* Evolution != atheism.

* Creationists have never proposed a single piece of evidence which is a serious threat to evolution, ever, in the history of creation science. I'm guessing you can't either.

* Creationists have to ignore the state of the art in almost every major branch of science (including biology, chemistry, geology and physics), so accusing "evolutionists" (which translates to mean 'almost all qualified scientists in every major branch of science') of doing what creationists do 24 hours a day is hypocritical to the highest degree.

I'm not surprised. Like I said, no matter how much evidence Creationists present, you simply shut your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist, you bypass the information. You are in denial over this evidence, despite what you say to the contrary, which means that no matter what we say or prove, you still will not believe.
 
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Grengor

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There's been no serious evidence against it because it's all bunk, or has been refuted. Do you consider the moondust argument to be worth merit, or the moon's orbit argument, or the "sun is shrinking" argument"? They are just examples of the dishonesty that is used to "prove" evolution false. Every single argument is on par with them. So we're blind?
 
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Vastavus

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I'm not surprised. Like I said, no matter how much evidence Creationists present, you simply shut your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist, you bypass the information. You are in denial over this evidence, despite what you say to the contrary, which means that no matter what we say or prove, you still will not believe.

Bring me some evidence, or take back your claim. My eyes are open to what you have to say.
 
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mikeynov

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QubeMaster said:
I'm not surprised. Like I said, no matter how much evidence Creationists present, you simply shut your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist, you bypass the information. You are in denial over this evidence, despite what you say to the contrary, which means that no matter what we say or prove, you still will not believe.

Or maybe you're just regurgitating what quacky creationists themselves constantly proclaim, despite the fact that they're the laughing stock of the scientific community.

By all means, Qube, create a thread offering your very best piece of evidence. Dollars to donuts says it's shreded and you disappear for the hills when it's obvious that whoever spoon-fed you the argument was probably a know-nothing or lying liar.

Also, feel free to be the first creationist on this board to counter even a single piece of evidence offered in this thread. Start with endogenous retroviral insertions, then move on to true tails, and then explain the existence of nested, objective hierarchies.

I mean, surely a creationist wouldn't have to selectively ignore evidence, right?

It's almost as if when a creationist tries to present "best supar evidence ever" that a YEC model is correct or (more often) that "evilution is stoopid," the thread is filled with replies by us evil evolutionists demonstrating just how stupid the argument in question is. And when us evolutionists present a thread with good, empirical evidence, it's literally ignored entirely by 99% of the creationists on this board.

For another example of the above, have a look around the Quiet Thread. Why is it that there's an entire thread devoted to evidence that not a single creationist on this forum can possibly counter? Put your money where your mouth is, step up, and be the first.
 
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MartinM

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QubeMaster said:
I'm not surprised. Like I said, no matter how much evidence Creationists present, you simply shut your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist, you bypass the information. You are in denial over this evidence, despite what you say to the contrary, which means that no matter what we say or prove, you still will not believe.

Looks like a nice convenient excuse for not actually presenting anything. Bring it on. You'll lose, and you might even learn something, if you're willing.
 
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funyun

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QubeMaster said:
I'm not surprised. Like I said, no matter how much evidence Creationists present, you simply shut your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist, you bypass the information. You are in denial over this evidence, despite what you say to the contrary, which means that no matter what we say or prove, you still will not believe.

I'm just itching to see these mounds of evidence we evolutionists have been shutting our eyes to out of hate for our Creator. Why don't you show us some, Qube?

...

Oh wait, did I just call your bluff?
 
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sidiousmax225

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QubeMaster said:

LOL, I havn't read every link yet, but I spotted this claim from http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml

" Yet, no scientific, provable evidence supporting the theory of evolution has emerged since Charles Darwin popularized it in 1859. "

DNA, heck, the entire field of genetics, is enormous proof of evolution.
 
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nvxplorer

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QubeMaster said:

CARM is 501(c)3 non-profit, Internet based ministry with three main goals:
  • Equip Christians in the truth
    • CARM does this by providing information on Christian Doctrine, theology, evangelism, and other subjects. The goal is to present an accurate and biblical representation of Christian truth.
  • Answer opposition to the Christian faith
    • CARM does this by documenting the beliefs of cult groups, aberrant religious groups, and alternative religious systems and compares them to biblical revelation.
  • Bring glory and honor to the name of Jesus
    • CARM does this by presenting the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ....


Uhhh...is the site creator planning on doing scientific research, or do I need a password to access it?
 
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*sigh*. Qube, why not list all your arguments against evolution in your own words. Just pointing to site is a cop-out. Do you even understand the arguments you use?

Maybe I just don't have the time to type it all out, paraphrase it, then simplify it for ya'll. I've been to them before by the way, I just haven't read them ALL COMPLETELY.
 
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