Can you lose your salvation??

Ben johnson · May 19, 2002

He was going to die on a cross for our sins. That is what has to be believed. It's simple, A child like faith is required. This however is the hardest thing for us to do, it sounds simple yet it's our pride that will not allow the humility to just say this: I can't stand in front of God, I am not worthy, I am a sinner, as a dirty rag, I need Jesus and the blood that was shed for me. That is the rock on which He built His church. His church is built on believers in His atoning blood, shed once at the cross so that all who will accept our sin nature and His forgivness are saved, not being saved, but saved.

On the portion highlighted in brown, we are in perfect agreement.

However, if you say, "ONLY a simple childlike faith" is necessary, please consider:

"Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord! Lord!' will inherit the kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES the will of the Father". Matt2:21

"For I say to you, unless you repent, YOU WILL PERISH!" Luke 13:3

"Truly, I say to you, unless you become humbled as one of these children, you will NOT ENTER the kingdom of Heaven." Matt18:3-4

"No good tree will produce bad fruit, no bad tree will produce good fruit. Therefore, you will KNOW THEM by their FRUITS."Matt7:18-20

If you believe that "mere-belief" equates to salvation, that there need be no "heart-change", no progression towards Spiritual maturity, then please tell me---which of the quotes above, which of the things that Jesus SAID, WHICH ONES DID HE NOT MEAN???

________________________________________________________________________
PS: Did Paul support the concept that "it's perfectly OK to continue in sin, you'll still be saved???

Erwin · May 19, 2002

Moving this thread to the new Soteriology forum since this thread is about the doctrine of salvation.

Ben johnson · May 19, 2002

"Soteriology"???

How will we know when there are too many forums?

Lion Heart · May 19, 2002

Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Richard,

I agree completely with you here.
You finish with...

Ehesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath given life to us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Let me ask your opinion. If salvation is by grace, wouldn't faith be of grace as well? And if not, why not?

Anyone else have an opinion on that?

in His love,
mike

mj,

First let me give you the process, as described in scripture;

Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Holy Spirit, confirms, that we are children of God, it is an inward testimony, wherein HIS Spirit testifies to our Spirit; and only those who have the Spirit, know for certain, without a doubt that we are (SAVED NOW) CHILDREN of GOD, because WE have received HIS WORD by FAITH.

When WE believed;
the scriptures translated us out from under the Law of sin and death , and then we are put under a higher law;

Rom 8
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Remember I said there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

The spirit of the Law of God when given was that man should live not by keeping.

You see, God gave his law to man, so that a man could see how SINFUL he is, NOT that by keeping the law he might be saved.

I know you are sincere in what you are stating and I don't doubt it one moment you don't belive this to be true,

But , the problem as I see it, is the idea that you believe a person is saved in steps; this idea does not square up with Gods word,

For the following reason;

God promises to save a repent soul.
1. "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psa 34:18)

2. The Blood of the Lamb of God;
"and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin. 1Jhn 1:7)

3. Considered the finality of Jesus's blood sacrifice. "We are sanctified through the offering of His body Once and For all " Heb 10:10

4. The reality of the power of His Blood;
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins :" (Col1:13-14

His eternal Priesthood; "He ever liveth to make intercession for them that come unto God by Him" (Heb 7:25)

You, see we are complete in HIM, we have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in Him;

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" (Col2:9-11)

We don't lack ANYTHING, we live by faith in Him who is able to deliver us in the day of temptation.

"For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

(2 Tim 1:12)

May the Lord bless you as you study his WORD.

Richard

Ben johnson · May 20, 2002

we are (SAVED NOW) CHILDREN of GOD, because WE have received HIS WORD by FAITH.

When WE believed...

Exactly! Bravo!

"For with the heart, man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rom10:10

Lion Heart · May 20, 2002

Thank GOD for giving US the SAVING FAITH TO;

BELIEVE HIM!!

AMEN, RICHARD

jrmorganjr · May 20, 2002

Hi Lion Heart,

You must have had me confused with other posters in your earlier post, I never said that salvation is a process. Salvation is a singular event in a believer's life. The moment he/she believes, he is saved from judgement unto enternal life. Instantly, permanently.

Sanctification is the process, the abiding, the conforming of us to Christ's likeness. Ben's idea that salvation is (perpetual, work-based) abiding in Christ doesn't make much sense to me. Abiding in Christ is part of our walk, it is feeding on Him, being in relationship to Him. The salvation issue has to already be worked out for this to take place.

Lion Heart · May 20, 2002

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
Hi Lion Heart,

You must have had me confused with other posters in your earlier post, I never said that salvation is a process. Salvation is a singular event in a believer's life. The moment he/she believes, he is saved from judgement unto enternal life. Instantly, permanently.

Sanctification is the process, the abiding, the conforming of us to Christ's likeness. Ben's idea that salvation is (perpetual, work-based) abiding in Christ doesn't make much sense to me. Abiding in Christ is part of our walk, it is feeding on Him, being in relationship to Him. The salvation issue has to already be worked out for this to take place.

JRMORGANJR;

i DON'T REMEMBER, BUT THANKS FOR CORRECTING ME;

MY HUMBLE APOLOGIES...

In his name;;

Richard

Lion Heart · May 20, 2002

Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Richard,

you said.

#206

Let me ask your opinion. If salvation is by grace, wouldn't faith be of grace as well? And if not, why not?

Anyone else have an opinion on that?

in His love,
mike

mjwhite,

Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion.

Both are given of GOD as a gift.

Because we are spiritually dead in sin and trespass; we are unable to believe by faith to the saving of the soul, but he "gives us faith as a gift" that we might be saved by GRACE also a gift. (Eph 2:1)

I think the only part, we play in our salvation, is we agree with the truth;

1. We are sinners.
2. We are deserving of nothing but judgement.
3. We are helpless to do anything about it.
4. If we die in this condition, we will eternally separated from the presence of GOD.

Sincere acknowledgement of these GREAT SPIRITUAL TRUTHS, will allow the spirit to work in each person, and bring about a true repentance, and conversion, which gives life to a dead soul.

I am amazed, with what this verse says;

1 Pet 1
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

WHO can purify his soul?; only he that obeys the truth.

Truly a verse to ponder.

Thanks for your ear.

May God richly bless you in studying HIS Word.

RICHARD

Ben johnson · May 20, 2002

Thank GOD for giving US the SAVING FAITH TO BELIEVE HIM!!

Hey, Richard! Respectfully, can you please show me in Scripture where it says "God gives us the saving faith to believe Him"?

Salvation is a singular event in a believer's life. The moment he/she believes, he is saved from judgement unto enternal life. Instantly, permanently.

Exactly! "He who HAS THE SON, HAS THE LIFE! He who has not the Son of God has not the life! I write this to you who believe in the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life!" We can say, boldly, that "we are saved-and-bound-for-Heaven", because it's NOT MERRIT! It's not EARNED! It's not DESERVED! It's a free gift, from grace! Because of LOVE!

Sanctification is the process, the abiding, the conforming of us to Christ's likeness. Ben's idea that salvation is (perpetual, work-based) abiding in Christ doesn't make much sense to me. Abiding in Christ is part of our walk, it is feeding on Him, being in relationship to Him. The salvation issue has to already be worked out for this to take place.

What doesn't make sense? 1Jn1:3,4,6 boldly proclaims that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD THROUGH JESUS". John says that "belief is all that is needed to salvation", but Jesus puts some qualifications on that belief. Not just ANY kind of belief saves, but belief that causes us "to do the will of the Father", "to be humbled as children", "to be repentant", "to be born again". Each of which, in Jesus' own words, is required to see Heaven.

It's not very complicated. "Believe in Him", "fellowship through Christ", "abiding in Him & His teachings", "humbled as a child", "doing good deeds", "repentant", "BORN AGAIN" ---they all mean the same thing!

"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me!"

In 3 words, a NEW CREATION!

Abiding in Christ is part of our walk, it is feeding on Him, being in relationship to Him.
Exactly! Salvation IS "being in relationship/fellowship to Him"!

Well said!

Lion Heart · May 20, 2002

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hey, Richard! Respectfully, can you please show me in Scripture where it says "God gives us the saving faith to believe Him"?

Ben,

As I explained before if you say there is a process, here it is'

Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed , ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Notice, you trusted after heard the word of truth, then you believed, and then you were sealed.

Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God :
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This faith given of GOD, is saving faith in the OBJECT, which is JESUS CHRIST (his finished work on the cross.

Then, this faith is our founding faith, which,

Heb 10
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Causes us to cling to HIM till the very end.

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost ;

The Holy Spirit keeps us cleansed and renewed day by day moment by moment in the perfect will of God; so long as we abide in HIM. When we take our eyes off of HIM, we stumble but do not lose our salvation; he picks us up dusts us off, and leads by the hand till the next stumbling. And so it continues, till we pass from this sinful world.

ABIDE IN HIM!

I agree with you here, you are 100%, correct.

Keeping your eyes upon Jesus..

RICHARD

jrmorganjr · May 20, 2002

Hi Ben,

I still think you're confusing sanctification & fellowship with salvation. These two things can happen because our salvation is secure, but they are not the same thing. The 1 John passage doesn't equate the concepts at all. They are interrelated, but distinct.

Abiding fellowship is part of the daily walk. Salvation is the one time event that secures our reconciliation with God through the cross, permanently & instantaneously.

But we do agree that we need these things, and, in practical terms, what that means. In my world view & theology, you can't lose your salvation. You still disagree, correct?

Ben johnson · May 21, 2002

Richard, I appreciate your post. I think this is one of the fundamental differences between the "OSAS" and "OSNAS" camps. You said:

Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God : 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
This faith given of GOD, is saving faith in the OBJECT, which is JESUS CHRIST (his finished work on the cross.

You see, to me, the passage in Eph2:8-9 has one subject, "God's unearned gift of salvation" (GUGOS). It's an UNEARNED GIFT, that's why it's called GRACE.

Now, the passage has one subject, and four phrases:

1. (GUGOS) Dia-Pistis-Through-Faith (prepositional phrase, modifies the one subject)
2. (GUGOS is) not of yourselves
3. (GUGOS is) the gift of God
4. (GUGOS is) not as a result of works lest anyone boast

How is it that the "prepositional phrase" (which is also a prepositional phrase in the Greek) can become the subject for one of the phrases, but not for the other two? How can the passage mean "FAITH is not of yourselves", instead of "GOD'S GRACE-THROUGH-YOUR-FAITH is not of yourselves"? If we receive God's gift-of-grace, it is NOT of ourselves. But if the FAITH is not-of-ourselves, then why does Paul say, "Faith comes from hearing the word of God"? If it comes from hearing, how can it be installed by God?

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resultin in salvation". Rom10:9-10 Where in this is "GOD-INSTALLS-ANYTHING"???

"For Scripture says 'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed'. (Is28:16) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him. For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". Rom10:11-13 Once again, where is the "GOD-INSTALLS-FAITH", or "GOD-INSTALLS-SALVATION"?

And if there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, how can entire passages (like in Hebrews) be discounted as they were only for Jews?

Please help me to understand how the OSAS view Scripturally supports "GOD INSTALLS SAVING FAITH"?

When we take our eyes off of HIM, we stumble but do not lose our salvation; he picks us up dusts us off, and leads by the hand till the next stumbling.

This I just don't get. In 1Pet1:10 the Greek for "stumble" is: "ptaio"--stumble, fall, become wretched. Contextually, it says "for in this way the EISODOS-GATE of Heaven will be abundantly provided. Is Heaven's gate provided in any other way? Is this not "mutually exclusive"? Isn't this "thesis/counter-thesis", specifically:

THESIS:
He who lacks these qualities is blind/short-sighted/forgotten his former purification from sins, stumbled, not-make-it-to-Heaven...

and ANTI-THESIS:
you-diligent, practice good fruits, not-stumble, fruitful in true knowledge of Lord Jesus, HEAVEN ABUNDANTLY PROVIDED

How am I misunderstanding this?

LouisBooth · May 21, 2002

"Please help me to understand how the OSAS view Scripturally supports "GOD INSTALLS SAVING FAITH"?
"

umm..it does. God is clearly shown to save someone and then they are a new creation, never to go back to the old ways again. If you're going to use romans ben you need to focus on a verse in chapter 11..verse 31 the greek word is

278 ametameletos {am-et-am-el'-ay-tos}

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of

3338; TDNT - 4:626,589; adj

AV - without repentance 1, not to be repented of 1; 2

1) not repentant of, unregretted

Ben johnson · May 21, 2002

Louis, if "the wages of sin are death, but the free gift of God is eternal life" (Rm6:23), and if "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (without repentance)" (Rm11:29), and "if God calls EVERYONE" (Rm5:18, Jn12:32)...

...and, "if we died with Him we shall also live with Him; if we endure we shall also reign with Him (2Tim2:11-12a)...

THEN---why is it a "breech" to understand, "if we deny Him He also will deny us (and we WON'T reign with Him)" (2Tim2:12b)?

If we are "faithless", will He not "remain faithful"? (2Tim2:13)

If we perish, has He repented of calling us? No. He calls EVERY MAN, but not every man will be SAVED. The CALL remains...

If we disbelieve and fall, has He revoked our salvation? No. The salvation is just as much available to us as before we were saved; and if we RETURN, we will be saved AGAIN...

If we are deceived by sin and fall from the living God, has He forsaken us? No. He absolutely will go "looking for the one lost sheep". But does he "harpazo-snatch-forcibly-seize-you-BACK"? No. He helkuo-drags-draws-by-inward-power, just as He did before you were saved, just as He does for all men.

Where is the Scriptural error?

LouisBooth · May 21, 2002

"If we disbelieve and fall, has He revoked our salvation? No. The salvation is just as much available to us as before we were saved; and if we RETURN, we will be saved AGAIN... "

Again, you're putting a meaning that isn't there. You can't repent or turn away from God's calling. That's what that verse plainly says. We are the objective that can't repent, not God. Look at the structure of the verse. You can't and won't fall away. Its a non-repentable descion. Can't happen. As said in John, his sheep will NEVER listen to another's voice. As the old hyme goes...no turning back...no turning back.

Ben johnson · May 21, 2002

That's what that verse plainly says. We are the objective that can't repent, not God. Look at the structure of the verse.

Uh-uh. "From the position of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from God's position they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (without repentance)". From the position of God. His side. His gift, His non-revocable...

You can't and won't fall away. Its a non-repentable decision. Can't happen.

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by
the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the
grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you
should seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1

As said in John, his sheep will NEVER listen to another's voice.

10:9 "If anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture".

Were they always there? Or are they His sheep because they entered???

(Not a ba-a-a-a-a-a-ad question, eh?)

eldermike · May 21, 2002

When Jesus asked Peter "who do you say I am"? and Peter told Him that He was the Son of God, Jesus said: "you could not know this if my Father had not told you". If God tells us who Jesus is, how can we suddemly not know who Jesus is? God installs grace in the form of convincing knowledge. The only way away from salvation is to reject it. If you could sin yourself out of salvation then you could never have had it. If you have to be sin free to be saved then none are saved. If the cross was necessary then it was necessary because we are sinners. If sin breaks salvation then sin prevents salvation. Can't be so. Jesus saves.

Blessings

VOW · May 21, 2002

To Eldermike:

The only way away from salvation is to reject it.

And you believe this is impossible? That someone, using Free Will, cannot be capable of rejecting salvation?

I have a very difficult time accepting this belief, because although what you propose is indeed logical, human beings are not, never have been, and never WILL be logical creatures. In fact, the Bible is FULL of stupid people.

My understanding is that humanity is endowed with Free Will. THAT is what got Adam and Eve into trouble in Eden. Those two EXEMPLIFY people in the Glory of Salvation. And it is their Free Will that is their downfall.

They literally had everything. And they rejected it. Why can't a "saved" person do exactly the same?

Peace be with you,
~VOW

mjwhite · May 21, 2002

Ben,

re: sarcasm
here is the full quote:

but he was talking to UNSAVED PEOPLE. So he doesn't really mean what he says, because they were not IN the teachings of Christ, so obviously they can't NOT ABIDE ('cause they-were-never-there-in-the-first-place)...
Again, it is not I who will convince you, if Scripture does not... Well your sarcasm aside, [since a constant use of sarcasm can tend to dilute its power and also obscure your meanings, I suggest you use it more sparingly].

me.
Here is what I thought was sarcasm>
but he was talking to UNSAVED PEOPLE. So he doesn't really mean what he says, because they were not IN the teachings of Christ, so obviously they can't NOT ABIDE ('cause they-were-never-there-in-the-first-place)...

Did you mean that? If so you departed from your other posts on the subject. Since you didn't mean it, I took it as sarcasm, hence the advice. Ask the other readers, does Ben use a lot of sarcasm in his answers.
Maybe I just read you wrong, but then again, maybe I don't. Either way, Ben, you know.

you.
In discussing theology, I strive to be open and honest with myself. I am willing to change---I freely admit I do not have all of the answers. I do have some, and possess some understanding of Scripture. I would accept predestined-election based on verses like John 15:16 and Eph 1:4-12, were it not for the existance of so many other verses that speak of falling-from-salvation, see that you do not live in the flesh as do the heathens, take care that you not have an evil unbelieving heart even to falling away from the living God, etcetera. If I accept predestination, I must then deal with absolute contradictions. So in the pursuit of truth and understanding, I read the whole, in context, and arrive at the OSNAS belief. In that, I have, illuminated-for-me, the supposed-OSAS verses in harmony with OSNAS. What I ask, is can the OSNAS verses be harmonized with the OSAS view?

me.
You read your beliefs into these OSNAS verses. You need to read what is clear first and then harmonize what seems unclear. I will show you what I mean a little after the next quote.

you.
Which, you have striven to do. Regarding 1Jn1:8, you say: Is he speaking about them losing their salvation? No, for salvation isn't a reward. But I do not think the use of the word, reward, necessarily negates the free-gift-of-grace aspect of our salvation. In Luke 6:23 Jesus says: Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in Heaven. In Col3:23-24, Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. What is the inheritace? It is eternal life. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through (your) faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1Pet1:3-5 So, the term REWARD, is often interchangeable with INHERITANCE...

me.
Let us look at your examples.

In Luke 6 Jesus wasn't saying that they wouldn't have an reward, but that it would be great. Why would it be great? Because [look in context] men hate you, they exclude and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man. The reward is a result of our works. Barely out of the closet Christians who always keep to themselves will not cause men to hate them or revile them for the name of Jesus. Those who go and boldly pronounce the truth [good works from faith] will receive a great reward.

Next verse.
In Col3:23-24, Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. What is the inheritace? It is eternal life.

Yes, the inheritance is eternal life.
Two things.
If the inheritance is eternal life, what is the reward of the inheritance? How can we get this reward? As the Word tells us, we need to WORK heartily for the Lord. Work brings its reward. Second, Salvation is a free gift, we can't WORK to get it. Romans 4:4 tells us that what a man works for, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but given to him as an obligation.

Final example.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in Heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through (your) faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1Pet1:3-5 So, the term REWARD, is often interchangeable with INHERITANCE...

Here we see that it is God who causes us to be born again to an inheritance [NOT A REWARD] which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away. This is God's love work for us -salvation. Our reward is based on our love work for Him in return, a work that is done because He has already saved [secured] us with an inheritance that is IMPERISHABLE, UNDEFILED, and WILL NOT FADE AWAY!

There then is no reason for your conclusion that reward and inheritance mean the same thing.

you.
The wicked will be rewarded for their unrighteousness, so too shall we be rewarded for our righteousness. And SINCE our righteousness is not OURS, but rather the righteousness of CHRIST that we received when we received Him, then the reward is not earned, is it?

me.
The wicked get what they earned. We get what we earn after we have been given heaven. The righteousness spoken about here is the works of faith we do AFTER we have been saved. Do all Christians obey the same? Do some stand more on faith than others? It is those righteous actions [which can't save] that are being talked about.
end part 1
mike

Can you lose your salvation??

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