once saved always saved

Originally posted by Mandy
Vow, no offense, but I disagree that it is a matter of who can dig up the most Scripture. It is a matter of taking all Scripture in its proper context, etc.

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Unfortunately, as with many things where there appear to be contradictions, finding out the "proper" context can be very challenging. People on both sides can offer plausible arguments to show any given piece of scripture to be on their side.

Originally posted by Didymus
my daughter who joined the Mormans-yes we are back to them again-- professed Christ at 10 or 11. By her joining the Mormans does that mean that 1. She wasn t really saved. or 2. she has lost her salvation. I personally believe in once saved always saved.

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Didymus,


If the Morman church teaches the same Gospel according to the Bible, then you may have something to talk about; it would behoove you to look an see.

For me this no stumper, allow me share a few verses that you need to reconcile with their teaching in order to continue down that road, of always saved; the fact is only God knows, and in the long run, if she is, she will come out from among these people.

The Gospel according to Paul;

1 Cor 15
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved , if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


The Gospel is hidden from the natural man;

2 Cor 4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should


Gal 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed .
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Ultimately, the Scriptures declare and reveal Jesus is God the Creator in the flesh.

Jhn 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him , and the world knew him not.


1 Tim 3
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



Pray for your daughter.



Richard

In the Pastoral epistles and especially in 2 Tim we have instructions to pastors on false teachings and the result thereof. You can tie yourself back into the chains of sin slavery if you read this stuff without having a proper understanding of the reason Jesus died on a cross. Men had confessed sin for ages before the cross, made sacrifices and had works, what changed?

Being lead astray by false teaching is sin. But - sin is sin.

The questions is: To the elect, is sin punishable by death? Since the cross the answer is NO.

God knows His people, hence the term "elect". We sin, we all do. Being "shipwreck" is not death, it's just sin. God hates sin but not sinners, so for that purpose He sent His Son, and by His blood and blood alone my/your sins are covered, not seen, gone, "poof". You are free from this problem as it relates to salvation. But as it relates to bringing others to Christ we are instructed to live as sin free as is possible. Why? So others will hear the truth, and the false teachers will be made false by our lives. We make God a lie when we say that sin condemns us. Jesus said the cross saved us from sin. Pick one,(Jesus saves or Jesus plus man saves), but pick right, because this is the required belief for salvation. Humble yourselves and pick the blood of Jesus because you can't save yourself nor can you judge the salvation of others. We are all sinners.

If you are saved and then go shipwreck in your faith, is that sin or death? Can God lie? Did God send His Son to die for the purpose of forgiving sin? If so, then which sins did He forget?

We are not to judge sin in the context of salvation, we become self-righteous when we try this. We boast.

Teach salvation by the grace of God and also teach that we can't fathom the grace of God.

Bring the sinner home, it's the essential job of the flock leader, but don't bring them back guilty, we didn't make them free.

Jesus saves.

Blessings

To the elect, is sin punishable by death? Since the cross the answer is NO.

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Well, no. AND yes. But this gets back to "what is salvation?", doesn't it?

Christianity is "IN CHRIST". The terms, "abiding in Him", "fellowship", "born-again"---they all mean the same! And John tells us, "No one born of God sins, because His seed abides in him; indeed he CANNOT sin because he is born (begotten) of God. By this the children of od and the children of the devil are obvious---anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." But to say that "we are no longer responsible for our sins"...

"What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? MAY IT NEVER BE! How shall we who died to sin, still live in it?"

"For if we continue sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire.." (Rm6:1-2,Heb10:26-27)

Jesus came "not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it". We may not be under Law, but we are still charged to uphold it. The Law was from God. It still is. If we break a law now, we are still saved through grace. But lf we become lawless, how then can we still be "children of God"?

Jesus said, "You will KNOW them by their FRUITS. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit."

What we do, what we are. "Abide in Me, and I in you". If He abides in us, then we cannot continually do sin.

Cause and effect...

Ben,

We are getting closer and closer.

We sin, you and I. We are saved, you and I. I rest my case.

One day we will fully know why God didn't just kill us and take us to be with Him, the minute He saved us.

Perhaps it was His plan to cover us with the blood of Christ, send us out, warts and all, to get the rest. He actually never said, Go and make them live sin free lives.

I believe in living as sin free as is possible, I do that myself. But not because my salvation is at risk but because sin quenches the HS, plus is breaks my heart also.

yes: cause and effect
we are getting closer.

Blessings




Blessings

Originally posted by eldermike
Perhaps it was His plan to cover us with the blood of Christ, send us out, warts and all, to get the rest.

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YES!

I believe that it is kind of absurd to believe that you can be "always saved" assured that no matter what you do, you will still go to heaven. Every mortal sin we commit must be forgiven before we die or we will suffer the pains of eternal damnation. If nothing unclean can enter the kingdom of God how can a person that openly rejects him (outside of unintentional ignorance) get into heaven? Making a commitment to God isn't a one-time type of thing, it's an ongoing commitment that must be made every second of every day. You have to live as a Christian. It's not enough to merely profess faith (which is great), but you must live it. This does not take away from Christ's redemptive work on the Cross as some may say. If Christ hadn't died for us there would be no salvation, but since he did, the gates of heaven are open for us all. Without Jesus, there is no salvation, but with him we can live eternally in heaven by living according to his commands.

Pax Vobiscum

Originally posted by eldermike
In the Pastoral epistles and especially in 2 Tim we have instructions to pastors on false teachings and the result thereof. You can tie yourself back into the chains of sin slavery if you read this stuff without having a proper understanding of the reason Jesus died on a cross. Men had confessed sin for ages before the cross, made sacrifices and had works, what changed?

Being lead astray by false teaching is sin. But - sin is sin.

The questions is: To the elect, is sin punishable by death? Since the cross the answer is NO.

God knows His people, hence the term "elect". We sin, we all do. Being "shipwreck" is not death, it's just sin. God hates sin but not sinners, so for that purpose He sent His Son, and by His blood and blood alone my/your sins are covered, not seen, gone, "poof". You are free from this problem as it relates to salvation. But as it relates to bringing others to Christ we are instructed to live as sin free as is possible. Why? So others will hear the truth, and the false teachers will be made false by our lives. We make God a lie when we say that sin condemns us. Jesus said the cross saved us from sin. Pick one,(Jesus saves or Jesus plus man saves), but pick right, because this is the required belief for salvation. Humble yourselves and pick the blood of Jesus because you can't save yourself nor can you judge the salvation of others. We are all sinners.

If you are saved and then go shipwreck in your faith, is that sin or death? Can God lie? Did God send His Son to die for the purpose of forgiving sin? If so, then which sins did He forget?

We are not to judge sin in the context of salvation, we become self-righteous when we try this. We boast.

Teach salvation by the grace of God and also teach that we can't fathom the grace of God.

Bring the sinner home, it's the essential job of the flock leader, but don't bring them back guilty, we didn't make them free.

Jesus saves.

Blessings

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eldermike,


I agree with you, I may have been a strong in the area of condemnation, but it wasn't meant in the context of her not being saved; I stated that in the long run only God is the judge of this matter.

What I meant was that since I know what this church teaches concerning Jesus; I person can't be real casual about saying, well this saved individual now is a member over there.

Anyone that would go from a church that teaches OSAS, to a church that denys the diety, of our savior, needs to examine themselves, to see where they stand in relation to the Lord.

We can't speak concerning anothers true relationship or not with HIM.

But why fellowship in a church that denys the Lord that purchased you, with HIS precious Blood?



Blessings, RICHARD

SEE???

I would like to make a distinction between mainstream OSAS and Reformed/Calvinistic "Perseverance of the Saints":

OSAS states that a saved person can fall into great sin and can die while still in that state of sin and still go to Heaven.

Perseverance of the Saints states that a saved person can fall into great sin, BUT, at some point before her death, that person will repent, continue to progress on the road of sanctification, and "endure till the end". Otherwise, that person's assurance of salvation could possibly be called into question, that is, only by the person herself; assurance of salvation is an issue between that person and God, of course. We can only be assured of our salvation if we are "enduring" and bearing fruit. This does not mean that we can lose salvation, but rather that we should understand what should be observed in a person who is regenerated. If we profess to be saved and remain habitually in purposeful sin, then "Houston", as they say, "we have a problem".

I believe that the Reformed position, in this case, is more Biblical than standard OSAS or "eternal assurance". If anything, the Calvinistic approach requires more obedience to God's Word regarding repentance and sanctification; it requires more than just "fire insurance".

Richard,

You said: <But why fellowship in a church that denies the Lord that purchased you, with HIS precious Blood?>

This is a good question. Jesus said He came to bear witness to the truth. Paul writes specific instructions for doing this within groups such as women, young, old, widows and such. He also instruct us that if the truth is rejected 3 times to leave. The way you framed your questions is very correct. The truth is the cross, that Jesus is the only way. It's not pre-trib, Calvinistic, OSAS,or even disagreements on sin. If we truly believe the words of Christ, the truth will set them free. If they are open to the truth even in sin, God can heal them. If they are not open to the truth (that they need the blood of Christ) at the third rejection, leave.

I believe we become legalistic and lawgivers when we apply this to sin. We have to spend time with new believers as mentors as Paul taught us and even through sin as long as we love the truth God can work a miracle in them. He did in me. I do believe that we must teach the truth, but I let the Bible speak that truth. There is always hope if the cross is not rejected.

One more thing. Paul's fellowship group was scattered all over the place. His ministry was teaching the very ones that many churches would reject today. He did so by always starting with the truth of the gospel, and He ended the same way. We can look at all the instructions He gave Christian workers as a means of working through Christian growth without rejecting the ones that the Lord has brought to us. I prefer to do this in place of rejecting them. I sense you do also.

My personal "kinship" group (fellowship group) has scattered over time but we stay in touch. It also grows as the Lord sends new ones across my path. Some to be taught and some to learn from. My church ministry includes people standing on rock and sand, some with one foot in the muck and the other on solid ground. My personal strength comes from seeing one of them climb up on the rock.

I fellowship when I can, but I want to be where God is working and in my experience He is always down at the edge ready to pull another up on the rock.

Blessings

believe that it is kind of absurd to believe that you can be "always saved" assured that no matter what you do, you will still go to heaven

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Christians have to be very careful not to lose their salvation after
being born again. I know that there are many who proclaim once saved
always saved. This is not true and there are lots of scriptures to
show that it’s possible to lose your "place in heaven" If you just
take a quick view at the parable of the 10 Virgins, (Matthew 25:1 -
11) you will see this is true. The 10 virgins, all 10 were virgins,
meaning sinless, but 5 of them were foolish.

If something is born it lives, all living things are growing and if
not, it dies. Maybe it will keep on breathing for a while but on the
end of the day it dies.
There is something young re-born Christians have to understand. NO
SIN can make you LOSE YOUR SALVATION after you have repented. (This
statement is not true for non-repented people). It's the condition
of your heart – If you are a fool or not. The biggest fool on earth
is God forgiven people who ‘loose it’. The day you repent for the
first time, God forgave you. Not only for what you have already
sinned, but also for all you are still going to do wrong. God
forgave you from birth to death. The Lamb of God took away your sin
that day on Calvary. It’s already done; you just have to accept it
after repentance and this does not give you a license to go on sinning.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God dealt with sin that day. There is no issue about sin anymore
because Jesus already paid the price for EVERYONE who accepted Him as
their Savior.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall
tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or
peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we
are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him
that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to
separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is not a license to go on sinning but it's to motivate you to
grow, what actually means to `die to self'. It’s to `let him deny
himself, and take up his cross, and follow Jesus. (Matthew 16:24)
Romans 6:1 W;hat shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that
grace may abound?

People lose their salvation not because of sin but because their
hearts are lukewarm.

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold
nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Now to know how warm someone's heart is, is to look at his/her
works. If you love God you will do His will and His will is to turn
from sin and strive to be holy as He is.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we
love God, and keep his commandments.

What God desires form us is our love and worship. God is not a
person that we can lie to by telling Him that we love Him. God
measure our love on how obedient we are to do His will. Remember
Abraham, about to offer Isaac out of obedience (love).

If we sin after repentance we have to confess our sins to the
congregation or to other Christians to get healed.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for
another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a
righteous man availeth much.

It's very easy to understand this. Our first time we repent we go
directly to God and ask Him to wash us clean in His blood, after this
God don't see sin on us anymore and therefore if we sin again we need
to confess one to another. This is also understandable – Our
brothers and sisters see or know about our sin and this cause them to
stumble. Sometimes we sin against our brothers and sisters and here
too we have to confess our sin to them.

We as Christians are obligated to get free from sin in our lives. If
we do not we are foolish because we wont grow spiritually. It's not
the sin that will stop us to grow but the unwillingness of our
hearts. This is also not too difficult to do. Try these three very
easy steps.

1. We have to make a choice – not to continue in sin. I find that
after a choice has been made you wont be toss to and fro any more.

2. Let our flesh die – flesh go hand in hand with our desires. Most
of sin comes through desires but not all. We need to keep in mind
that we are led by the word of God and not by our desires. It's to
deny yourself.

3. Put on the full Armour of God and STAND. Satan will for sure
try to keep you in a habit of sinning. God gave us the keys to bind
him and we can also watch and pray without ceasing.

You will find that if you want to get free from sin God provide
everything you will be needed.

I believe the problem, Gerry, is "Over Worded, Under Spirited" theology. ie We're using too much head-scripture to arrive at the "truth" rather than Holy Spirit guidance. In the former, even non-believing theologians can "accomplish" that.

And once you start off on the wrong footing, you can just use scripture after scripture to support anything you want.

btw I'm a firm believer of OSAS.

"People lose their salvation not because of sin but because their
hearts are lukewarm.
"

Umm...I think you missed the part about the new creation not being able to do anything but serve God

Originally posted by Andrew
I believe the problem, Gerry, is &quot;Over Worded, Under Spirited&quot; theology. ie We're using too much head-scripture to arrive at the &quot;truth&quot; rather than Holy Spirit guidance. In the former, even non-believing theologians can &quot;accomplish&quot; that.

And once you start off on the wrong footing, you can just use scripture after scripture to support anything you want.

btw I'm a firm believer of OSAS.

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With all due respect, theology is an extremely important part of Scripture study. Do you think the Holy Spirit doesn't use "head-scripture" as a tool? If it wasn't for theology, you might not even believe in OSAS. Had not John Calvin or some other Reformation father done the diligent Scripture study that he had to combat Arminianism, there's a good chance that you would not have believed in OSAS -- as far from pure Calvinistic Perseverance of the Saints as it is -- at all.

humblejoe,

I am by no means denying the importance of the study of scripture. all i'm saying is that while one is cherished, the other part (Holy Spirit unction/guidance) has been neglected or ignored.

Was Peter a theologian with a PhD? No, his area of expertise was fishing. The same with Matthew, the tax collector. Yet, they were empowered and led by the Holy Spirit. We see clearly in Acts that Word and Spirit are to go hand in hand.

For eg, a Christian does not need a PhD in Science and another in Biblical Theology to know the truth behind Evolution vs Creation. Just one word, just one revelation, from one single verse, from the Holy Spirit is enough to show him the truth of the matter. IOW Holy Spirit revelation can supercede years of head study in one second.

now the quest is how do we recognise and trust that guidance? few Christians know. that's why I said this important counterpart has been neglected/ignored, leading to all the differences.

Originally posted by Andrew
For eg, a Christian does not need a PhD in Science and another in Biblical Theology to know the truth behind Evolution vs Creation. Just one word, just one revelation, from one single verse, from the Holy Spirit is enough to show him the truth of the matter. IOW Holy Spirit revelation can supercede years of head study in one second.

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This is assuming, of course, that evolution is incompatible with the way God created animals and man. But that's a different thread altogether.

Excellent post, Altya! LOVED your "avatar" (though the complex animated ones keep the page from loading on my computer the first seven tries...)

Once in such a forum, no twice, I offered to give 101 verses to support Eternal Security, and did...

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Gerry, I would love to see your "101 verses". If you want no argument, then I'll give you none. But I am writing a text on the subject, intending for publication. I would like to know if I missed any on the "OSAS" side... Can you email them to me? (Pasted into the body of the email, I have an iron-clad policy of NEVER OPENING ANY ATTACHMENT. To date I've received over THIRTY copies of the Klez.e virus, but have NEVER OPENED it...)

There is Biblical support for BOTH positions...

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Respectfully, I don't really think there is. I mean, there are verses that seem to support one side, and verses that seem to support the other. But the one side can be understood in harmony with the other, and as far as I have see, the other cannot be harmonized with the one...

TOUCHE', Mandy! If I see a "bold proclamation" of one view in one place, but then that generates a contradiction with other Scriptures, then I must return to the first to discern my misunderstanding... (Examples on request...)

I think, really, there is an "issue-BEHIND-the-issue". It's not really a question of "Once Saved Always Saved", nor is it a question of "Can You Fall From Salvation".

The big question, the $64,000, solid-gold, "Meaning-of-Life-the-Universe-and-EVERYTHING" (42?!), the rilly-rilly-big-shewww, is:

WHAT IS SALVATION?

What differentiates the "saved" from the "lost"? Why are sheep, "sheep", why are goats, "goats"? What must we DO, if ANYTHING, to be saved? Is a "heart-change" necessary? Is it "mere-head-belief"? Is it a "magic-incantation, say-THE-SINNER'S-PRAYER", and you're "IN"?

What is it? How am I saved?

My personal opinion is that sin is forgiven for those who choose to follow Christ. Once we follow, there is no sin that can cause us to lose our salvation. However, in the same manner that we CHOOSE to follow Christ, we can also CHOOSE to reject him. That is what I believe Peter and the book of Hebrews talks about - Real people with Real salvation who Really choose to not follow Christ.

Such verses such as "Nothing can snatch them out of my hand," still ring true in such an understanding - however, CHrist did not preclude those who walk away out of their own free will...

I'll be glad to debate that reading with anyone if they want - it seems to be a rapproachment between Arminianism and Calvinism, each of which have fatal flaws in their doctrine and logic...

(Don't even get me started on the Five Points - by Calvin's own definition, if one point falls, they all fall, and Irresistable Grace is Bibically unattainable...but I suppose that's a different thread all together...)

Grace and Peace...
SEC