The Angel Satan and Free Will

I don't know..but thats what the Word of God says...and the word of God is right...
I just accept it!
GEL

I know Augustine thought that the angels did have freewill but then after the rebellion God peserved them. i took that last part to mean that He took it away from them. But I do not know of a verse in the Bible that says whether this is true or not.

blackhawk

I don't recall there being any verses that say angels don't have free will. Obviously satan does (or did) because of his "I wills".

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

This is more of a thought it definitly is not a biblical statement. If we, as humans, know some of us will be saved and others will be lost (reguardless if you believe in "free will" or "predestined") at the point when we die physically, do we not also know that those that are saved are eternally saved and those that are lost will eternally be lost? Does this same idea apply to angels, just for them their "end" already came?
Like I said its just an idea or thought

Originally posted by Squee
I never really thought about it before, but Angels don't have free will right? So how did Satan turn against God?

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I don't believe any being has free will. I would like to say that I think it's quite ironic that so many on this MB profess the "free will" of a fallen creation (man) whose very nature is bound by it's sinfulness, yet they don't embrace a concept of a creation with a nature that is not bound by sin (angels) but can choose to sin.



God bless.

Here's what the Catholic Catechism says:

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

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Originally posted by pax
Here's what the Catholic Catechism says:
Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.

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Strange. That whole "the devil made me do it" seems like something the Bible seems to speak against:

James 1:14,15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God bless.

I believe the Bible clearly indicates that all angels were created with free will, just like us, with the ability to do both right and wrong.

This raises an interesting question. If this is true, does the sacrifice of Jesus Christ also cover the unrighteous acts of angels who put their faith in Him?

I know most Christians answer to this. They say, "No, the angels knew better and were 'perfect' so Christ's sacrifice does not cover them. And neither does it cover Adam for the same reason." But I tend to believe that most Christians may be wrong about this. The best thing we can do to find the right answers to questions like this about angels is to read all the relevant Bible passages that we have on this subject.

First let's read Colossians 1:19 and 20. It tells us, "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Christ Jesus), and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether things on earth or THINGS IN HEAVEN, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Hmm. That certainly seems to say that Christ's shed blood also covers the sins of repentant angels.

How about 1 Peter 1:12? There Peter referred to the "things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel." What "things" was he referring to? Those who preach the true gospel only preach about one thing. That "thing" is how all who put their faith in the power of Jesus Christ's shed blood to cleanse them of all their sins will be given eternal life by God. Now notice the second part of 1 Peter 1:12. There Peter said, "Even angels long to look into these things." (1 Pet. 1:12) Why would angels "long to look into these things" if they had no value for them?

The Bible also tells us that angels who choose to continually do wrong will not receive eternal life, and that they have the exact same fate in store for them as wicked humans. (Matt.25:41)

With all these things in mind, I think the Bible indicates that the only real difference between us and the angels is the type of bodies we were created with. And I think it indicates that the angels will be judged on the exact same basis that we are. If they are not, on the day that "the saints will judge the world" how will we be able to also "judge angels"? (1 Cor. 6:2,3)

The only difference I see in how we will judge angels is that, because all of the angels have seen overwhelming proof of God's existence and of His goodness, no angel will have any excuse for rejecting Christ. Because of this, I believe no unrepentant angel will be shown mercy on Judgment Day. But even in this area, I do not think angels will really be judged any differently than people. For Jesus said concerning people, "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded." (Luke 12:48)

Originally posted by Reformationist


Strange. That whole "the devil made me do it" seems like something the Bible seems to speak against:

James 1:14,15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God bless.

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If we are drawn away by our own desires, then we have freewill.

I believe as Augustine did that we do have freewill but it is not in liberty. That is it is fallen. Since it is fallen we choose to only do sin. But this is not something forced upon us. WE willfully choose to sin. I reject the idea f double predestination as did Calvin, Edwards, Luther, and Augustine. (if he had heard of it)

most CAlvinists would say that we do have a freewill but it is fallen. RC Sproul in his book Chosen by God says that the term HyperCalvinism is an inslt to Calvinists. That Hyper Calvinism is not Calvinism at all. That God does not force us to choose sin. He is not the author of sin.

Now I also believe that the angels had freewill at sometime. So that is why Satan could rebel and go against God. God is still sovereign. He just let Satan rebel.

Do they have freewill now? I do not think so but I cna't back that on anything except my own beliefs. I know there won't be a rebellion in heaven again.

Blackhawk

Well consider this idea...

Without evil there can't be a choice to choose good or evil. Therefore, perhaps God gave Satan freewill in order for Satan to turn against Him, thus creating the "evil" side, which we are meant to choose to reject or follow.

Originally posted by aChristian
I believe the Bible clearly indicates that all angels were created with free will, just like us, with the ability to do both right and wrong.

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I have a few questions about this. First, when you say "just like us" who do you mean? Second, where does the Bible say anyone was created with "freewill?" What determines the "right and wrong" you mention. And lastly, you seem to define "freewill" as the ability to "do both right and wrong." Is that how you define "freewill?"

The rest of your post was well worded and seemed to be well thought out. I have not studied the possibility of Christ's atoning work providing anything for the angels so I'll just commend you on your post and look forward to the answers you provide to my questions.

God bless.

Originally posted by Mandy
If we are drawn away by our own desires, then we have freewill.

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Our will is only as free as our strongest desire. All humans, saved and unsaved, are desire driven. The difference is that an unsaved person is NOT free to desire to please God. It is not their nature. This doesn't mean they have a tendendency to displease God. It means they are unable to do anything pleasing to God because all decisions they make are unrighteous.

Freewill is not the ability to make choices. We were created in the image of God. Making decisions is one of the attributes God gave us. However, the unsaved are not able to make a righteous decision. They have the ability to choose any unrighteous choice. This does not, however, make thir will "free." Their will is determined by their very nature, which is unrighteous. Therefore, the desires that "draw them away," being unrighteous, negate the possibility to choose to do the Will of God, subsequently eliminating the concept of their will being "free."

God bless.

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I believe as Augustine did that we do have freewill but it is not in liberty. That is it is fallen.

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I think I'm getting confused, once again, by the way people are using the term "freewill." How can you say "we do have freewill" but in the same sentence set limitations on when it is free?

Thanks.

God bless.

Reformationist,

You asked: First, when you say "just like us" who do you mean?

"Us" being every human being who has ever lived. Free will meaning that God did not want to create robots who had to do things His way. He wanted to give us all the freedom to make our own decisions in life. Why? Because God wanted to have a loving relationship with us, and real love cannot be either forced out of someone or programmed into them. Real love can only come from a person's own free will.

But in giving us free will, God had no choice but to create a race of people who would all be less righteous than Himself. How so? God cannot act unrighteously. But since His free creations would have both the ability to act unrighteously and often, at least on an experimental basis, the desire to do so, they would all be by their own created nature less righteous than God. And thus, they would all be undeserving of eternal life.

So, what was God to do? His own incredibly high standards as God said that only those who were as righteous as He was were deserving of the ultimate gift, immortality. Thus, by God's standards, anyone who was less righteous than Himself would have to eventually die. For even though God gives us all the gift of life, He has chosen to give only the righteous eternal life. The Bible tells us that God found a way around this seemingly "Catch 22" situation. It tells us He decided that, since all unrighteousness was deserving of death, and that only perfectly righteous ones are deserving of eternal life, He could pay all of our death penalties for us by sending His perfectly righteous Son to die in the place of each one of us. Just as the Bible tells us that to God each one of us is worth the lives of many sparrows, so the death of His one perfectly righteous Son would be worth more in paying the price for our unrighteousness than all of our own deaths put together.

So God sent his Son to die in our place and pay the death penalty which we all deserve for our own unrighteousness. He then offered that payment as a gift, along with the gift of immortality which automatically comes with that payment. He then told us that all we have to do is accept that payment as an accomplished reality and then God will consider the penalty for our unrighteousness to have been paid. Of course, someone who really believes this to be true can't help but be affected by God's great love towards them. When a person truly accepts on faith what God has done for them through Jesus Christ's sacrificial death, their life begins to change. The Bible tells us God then gives them His Holy Spirit to help them successfully live their new lives as believers in Jesus Christ. At that time they are truly "born again."

Some have said that this amounts to God not creating us free at all. They say that, in effect, God is saying, "Do things my way or I will kill you." But He is not. He is saying, "I have already given you a gift, the gift of life. Now I want to give you an even better gift, eternal life. All you have to do is accept it. And to do that, all you have to do is believe in the way I purchased it for you."

You wrote: Second, where does the Bible say anyone was created with "freewill?"

Though those words are not used, the understanding that we are created with a free will to either obey God or disobey Him is certainly a large part of scripture. Adam had the ability to either eat that fruit or not eat it, didn't he?

Deut. 30:19 comes to mind. "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live." So does Josh. 24:15. "If serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

You wrote: And lastly, you seem to define "freewill" as the ability to "do both right and wrong." Is that how you define "freewill?"

The ability and the opportunity. If I tell someone, "You are free to choose either vanilla or chocolate ice cream, but there is no chocolate available," have I really given them a free choice? For us to really have been created as "free" people God must have chosen to permit evil to exist so that we would have the opportunity to choose evil over good, if we chose to do so. To have the ability to choose evil rather than good, evil must exist as an available option.

I believe God wanted everyone who would at some point choose to live their lives righteously, and who He would later give the ability to do so perfectly (God will one day give Christians not just immortality but also incorruptibility), to have a first hand knowledge and understanding of why God's ways are best. God did not want even those who would freely choose to do things "His way" to not personally understand why "His way" is the best way. Only by creating the human race in such a way that all of us would be sure to gain a personal "knowledge of good and evil," (i.e., creating a human race that could never fully obey him) could God be certain that all of us would acquire such "knowledge." For only by making sure that every human being would personally experience the negative results of unrighteous living could God be sure that all who would sooner or later choose to live righteous lives would fully appreciate why doing things "God's way" is the best thing for us.

I believe "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Eden, which God told Adam and Eve not to eat from but from which he knew they would eat (being "forbidden fruit" and all), was meant to illustrate the situation we are now discussing. To understand the meaning of "The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" we have to understand that before Adam and Eve ever ate from that tree they already had a knowledge of "good." For Adam and Eve knew God and "God is good." Adam had not only talked with God himself, but he and his wife had both walked with God in the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:8) So, since Adam and Eve already had a knowledge of good, their eating from "the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil" represented their also gaining a knowledge of evil. The accent should be placed on the word "and." As in "the knowledge of good AND evil."

I believe that the knowledge of evil, that Genesis refers to in the story of Adam and Eve, refers to "knowing" something "in the biblical sense." This kind of "knowledge" refers to a very close and "intimate knowledge." Such as in the Bible's statement that Joseph did not "know" Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus. (Matt. 1:25)

That being the case, Adam and Eve had an intimate knowledge of good before they disobeyed God. For they personally knew God and they knew by experience all the good things being obedient to Him brought them. But until they disobeyed God they did not really "know" evil. For they had no intimate knowledge of evil. For such a "knowledge" would include having experienced the harmful effects of evil, a knowledge which Adam and Eve only acquired after they disobeyed God.

Mike

Originally posted by aChristian
"Us" being every human being who has ever lived.

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Please tell me where scripture says that God created everyone who ever lived with free will.

Free will meaning that God did not want to create robots who had to do things His way.

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This kind of reasoning always baffles me. To say that God must either create us with "freewill" or we're robots is erroneous. "Freewill" is NOT the ability to make choices. "Freewill" is the ability to make ANY and ALL choices in a given situation. "Freewill" is the ability to make a dicision without the consideration of outside influence. Nobody has that, not even God.

He wanted to give us all the freedom to make our own decisions in life. Why? Because God wanted to have a loving relationship with us, and real love cannot be either forced out of someone or programmed into them. Real love can only come from a person's own free will.

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Let me explain the fall of man the way I see it and then we'll apply your reasoning of "us loving God" and how it relates to "freewill."

Adam and Eve sinned and God cast them out of the Garden of Eden. He told them they would die that day, not physically, but spiritually. Adam (all mankind) inherited the fallen nature that God gave him. At this point did Adam love God? NO! Adam's very nature was at enmity with God. Adam had become a child of wrath. Now I ask you, "what was it that changed that?" Was it Adam's desire to once again please God and be in His good graces? Could Adam spawn a righteous motive for his relationship with God from his fallen, dead heart. NO! What is the catalyst for our love for God? Let's see what the Bible says:

1 John 4:19
We love Him BECAUSE He FIRST loved us.

Now let's break this down. Is the "we" every human being who has ever lived? NO! Does every human being who has ever lived love God? NO! The "we" and the "us" are the same people. Since the "we" does not refer to every human being who has ever lived then the "us" doesn't refer to every human being who has ever lived. So, to sum up, not everyone loves God, and, God does not love everyone.

But since His free creations would have both the ability to act unrighteously and often, at least on an experimental basis, the desire to do so, they would all be by their own created nature less righteous than God.

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Fallen man didn't have the "ability to act unrighteously." The nature of fallen man dictated that they could ONLY act unrighteously. Unless God changed something, gave them a new nature, then they could, and would, continue to ONLY act unrighteously.

The Bible tells us that God found a way around this seemingly "Catch 22" situation.

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Hmmm... God is caught in a "catch 22?" You're doing alot to relay your feelings of God's omnipotence, or lack thereof. Seems strange that God had to come up with a "work around."

He could pay all of our death penalties for us by sending His perfectly righteous Son to die in the place of each one of us.

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So, Jesus paid the "death penalty" for "each one of us" by dying in our stead? Tell me, please, if the death penalty has been paid for "every human being who has ever lived" who is going to hell? Do some get another death penalty?

Just as the Bible tells us that to God each one of us is worth the lives of many sparrows, so the death of His one perfectly righteous Son would be worth more in paying the price for our unrighteousness than all of our own deaths put together.

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Hello? Matthew 10:31 is about Christians, and more specifically the Apostles. It's not about every human being who has ever lived. Look at the verse in context. Jesus is telling Christians that they are valuable to God and to not fear those that "kill the body but cannot kill the soul" (Matt 10:28).

He then told us that all we have to do is accept that payment as an accomplished reality and then God will consider the penalty for our unrighteousness to have been paid.

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What?!! So for the sacrifice of Jesus', God Himself, to be effective He needed His fallen creation to "accept" it as really happening? I can't believe you actually believe that.

He is saying, "I have already given you a gift, the gift of life. Now I want to give you an even better gift, eternal life. All you have to do is accept it. And to do that, all you have to do is believe in the way I purchased it for you."

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Yeah. "Fallen creation, all you have to do is believe
with that heart that is totally unrighteous that I purchased eternal life for you." Yeah, that's what He's saying.

Though those words are not used, the understanding that we are created with a free will to either obey God or disobey Him is certainly a large part of scripture. Adam had the ability to either eat that fruit or not eat it, didn't he?

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I didn't expect you to provide the exact words. But, as I've said before, providing examples of Adam's nature BEFORE THE FALL and comparing it to the nature of fallen man leads only to inconsistancies. Adam was not created with a sinful nature, he inherited one upon sinning. What I'm saying is that until God does something first fallen man cannot change his own heart and reconcile himself to God. God must do the reconciling.

Deut. 30:19 comes to mind. "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."

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Uhhh.. Deuteronomy was written to God's people. The book serves as an example of how the Law should be taught. Do you think it was an example to those that give the Law no authority?

So does Josh. 24:15. "If serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

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Uhhh..once again, written to God's chosen reaffirming His promise to give the land of Canaan to the descendants of Abraham, the people of Israel.

For us to really have been created as "free" people God must have chosen to permit evil to exist so that we would have the opportunity to choose evil over good, if we chose to do so. To have the ability to choose evil rather than good, evil must exist as an available option.

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Your error is in the perspective that we were good with the ability to choose evil. We weren't good. We were fallen. We were enemies of God. We were unrighteous. We were "dead in our trespasses." The truth is we could only choose unrighteousness. We couldn't choose good. It's not the other way around. We were dead.

God did not want even those who would freely choose to do things "His way" to not personally understand why "His way" is the best way.

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The problem here is there is NO ONE WHO WOULD FREELY CHOOSE TO DO THINGS HIS WAY. Read Romans 3:10-18. That's about the fallen man.

No one CAN live a righteous life. That's why our salvation is not based on our works, it's based on Jesus' works.

Thanks for the entertaining debate.

God bless.

God is so glorious angels choose to exalt Him. I really don't recall angels not having free will. Plus, Lucifer fell by having a lust for power, not by attacking God. So it was no action of His, merely a desire that went against God.

Reformationist,

Unfortunately, your "total depravity" belief is based on false premises. The false premises I here refer to are these: 1) The Bible portrays Adam as "the first man" in an absolute chronological sense; 2) The Bible indicates that we are all Adam's descendants; 3) The Bible indicates that Adam was created with a "perfect" physical body that was corrupted by his act of disobedience; 4) The Bible indicates that we all die as a direct result of Adam's disobedience in Eden. All four of these premises combine to make up the doctrine of "the Fall" of mankind. However, I believe that the doctrine of "the Fall" is an incorrect understanding of Scripture.

The fact of the matter is that the Bible does not say that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man." I believe that God simply used Adam and Eve, and orchestrated the events in Eden, to illustrate the unrighteous condition of all mankind. I do not believe that the writer of Genesis meant for us to understand that Adam and Eve were the first people on earth. For he clearly indicated that there were people then living in the land "east of Eden" whom Cain was afraid might kill him. And the context of Genesis chapter 4 also clearly implies that it was there that Cain found a wife. (Gen. 4:14-17 )

Bible chronology seems to indicate that only about 4,000 years passed between the creation of Adam and the birth of Christ 2,000 years ago. But paleontologists, anthropologists and archaeologists all assure us that mankind has lived on earth far longer than 6,000 years. For instance, anthropologists date the first settlement of the Americas by modern men to 15,000 B.P. (Before the Present) and their first settlements in Australia to 35,000 B.P. To explain this apparent conflict between well established science and scripture some Bible believers have suggested that there may be gaps in the Genesis genealogies and that, if there are, Adam may have been created by God near the time scientists tell us modern man first appeared on earth. However, such an explanation does not solve the apparent conflicts here referred to because the same scientists who tell us modern man has been around for at least several tens of thousands of years also tell us that the things Adam and his immediate descendants were involved in did not take place anywhere on earth prior to 10,000 years ago. These things include raising crops, herding animals, forging tools of copper and iron and building cities. (Gen. 4)

The only place in Scripture Adam is referred to as the "first" man is in 1 Cor.15:45-47. There Adam is called "the first man." But there we also find that Jesus is called "the second man." The context shows that the writer of those words was referring to Adam as the "first" man only in his relative chronological position to Christ. In other words, since Adam came "first" and Christ came "second," Adam came before Christ.

The doctrine of the "Fall" is largely based on what I am convinced is a misunderstanding of the apostle Paul's words in Romans 5:12-20 and 1 Corinthians 15:21,22. I believe the key to understanding Paul's words there recorded is understanding his words in Romans 5:19, as rendered in Bibles such as the Amplified Bible. There we read, "By one man's disobedience many were constituted sinners." To "constitute" means "to establish formally." (New American Dictionary) Adam's disobedience formally established the fact that the entire human race was incapable of living completely righteous lives. So, after Adam, whom God used as a representative of the human race, failed a simple God given test of his righteousness, God had good reason to retroactively condemn the entire human race as being deserving of the deaths they had long been suffering, and undeserving of eternal life, a gift God had not yet given to any human being. For if Adam in paradise, without a problem in the world, could not manage to obey one simple command from God, what chance does any human being have of living their entire trouble-plagued life without sinning either in word, thought or deed? No chance at all. And since we have no chance of living perfectly righteous lives we have no chance of earning eternal life by means of our own righteousness.

I believe that is the primary lesson that was illustrated in Eden. Since human beings are less righteous than God we are not deserving of eternal life. That means all human beings have, in effect, from their births been condemned by God to die. Not because of anything Adam did, but because we ourselves all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) However, the Bible tells us that God was willing to accept the death of His Son Jesus Christ in place of the deaths His high standards had determined we all must suffer. (Matthew 20:28; John 10:11; Romans 3:24; 1 Corinthians 6:20; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 9:26; 1 Peter 1:18,19; 1 John 1:7; 4:10; Rev. 5:9.) This is the good news presented in the pages of the New Testament. That even though God's high standards demanded our deaths as the penalty for our sins, He is now willing to accept the death of Jesus Christ in place of the deaths of all who now accept Christ's death as payment in full for all their sins. And because God accepts Christ's death as payment for the sins of Christians, He no longer considers Christians to be sinners. Rather, He considers them to be righteous ones who are now fully worthy of eternal life. And because He does, He now promises to give eternal life to all who put their faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe that the story of Adam and Eve in Eden was also meant by God to illustrate another important lesson. The lesson that we are always in need of God's forgiveness even when we have not recently committed any "sinful" act. I believe this lesson was illustrated by Adam and Eve being totally unaware of their nakedness before God until after they had committed a blatant act of disobedience. (Nakedness is a condition always portrayed as shameful in the scriptures.) Then, suddenly, after they had "sinned" they became aware of their nakedness and felt the need to "hide from God." Just as we often only become aware of our shameful condition before God after committing some "sinful act." And just as we then often feel ashamed of ourselves and try to hide from God by withdrawing from Him by not praying or by not attending Church, etc., until we finally get over our guilt. However, the fact is, we are no more worthy to stand in the presence of a perfect God before committing a "sinful act" than we are after doing so. Just as Adam and Eve were, in reality, just as naked before they disobeyed God as they were after doing so. They just didn't realize it.

So, if mankind did not "fall," what did happen in Eden? I believe those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" misunderstand the events which transpired in Eden. The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life." (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from eating from "the tree of life." Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to eat from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us. Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life." Of course, that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ. For, as we have seen, God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

Mike