christians vs paganism

why do most have such bad attitudes towards us?

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Perhaps left better to those who have such... What is your attitude towards the truth.. Or if I were to ask you if you knew if I was even real/ to prove it to e.

then the goddess came to me and showed me a more welcoming, more loving religion than christianity could ever have been for me.

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How did this "goddess" show you? And what is your understanding of Christianity? Indeed, to believe in many deities is a belief that itself collapses within on it... For who can one sport the title of hate, while another sports the title of love.. And these two exist in the same place of peace. Because one by nature would rise up against the other....

She teaches me love for the human spirit and that is what i will always hold true.

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Then in and of herself there is no good.... If she teaches love for the human spirit, then she teaches there is no right or wrong.. And if there be no right or wrong, then she is as the snad of the seashore... She cannot be the one true goddess, because there is no standard to set her beliefs by.. By this, everyman is right...

it doesn't matter what faith you are in the end, just that you find happiness while you are on earth.

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Happiness? Is that the only meaning in life? Then praytell, what is happiness? To one iit may be the destruction of the world, which is not loving to the human spirit, which is against your goddess, which would make it wrong, no? But again, your goddess does nto hold truth, because to hold truth is to hold the way of happiness.. Which is not to love the human spirit.....

and don't say the "good book" knows, because it is true that it has been written from a one-sided view.

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Can you indeed show it to be one-soded? The truth is always "one-sided," because to be otherwise makes it no truth at all.... The Bible is error free, and has not been changed throghout the years... Nor does it go against logic.. No other writing of any religion can boast this...

and shows me no more proof of the divine than does a childrens book.

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Hold on a second... You say that you believe the end is that we find happiness on this earth and love for the human spirit. Yet you would show such distain fo the Bible... As to make my path in life bitter? Perhaps I am in error to you, but then again, you do not believe in truth..... So now what? Can you indeed prove the Bible to be false.

Yet you said that you may be wrong, and you accept this.. Then you say that the Bible is wrong.. Yet you openly admit that you yourself be wrong. So if you indeed by wrong, how do you trust to bring the Bible down? In the end not knowing what is the tru path of truth...

Or so this is all written in what you have stated yourself...

Silver_Ingrid, the answer to your questions, from my viewpoint, is that each and every person will believe that their religion is right, at least to them, and that makes them believe it is right for everybody else. While there are many Christians that do accept that they may be wrong, there are also an awful lot who do not. My suggestion is learn to ignore the arguments, its the only way a person can not come to the point where they get worked up about them.

Silver_Ingrid said:

my question to all christians is, why do most have such bad attitudes towards us?

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Dualism. “He who is not for me is against me”, allegedly the words of the founder. The Christian worldview is dualistic, splitting mankind into two camps, the camp of God and the camp of Satan. The only way you belong in the camp of God is if you’re a Christian. Otherwise you’re Satan’s servant.

Muslims hold a similar worldview (Muslims against non-Muslims, the party of Allah against the party of Shaytaan). It is the cause of much bloodshed, including the 9/11 attacks.

i have been a celtic pagan for years and tried to find christianity at one time, then the goddess came to me and showed me a more welcoming, more loving religion than christianity could ever have been for me.

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I fully agree. The Gods do not bribe me with heaven nor blackmail me with hell. I serve the Gods out of love and not fear.

it doesn't matter what faith you are in the end, just that you find happiness while you are on earth.

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AMEN to that!

and don't say the "good book" knows, because it is true that it has been written from a one-sided view. and shows me no more proof of the divine than does a childrens book.

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Indeed human language is not an adequate way for communicating Divine mysteries.

Heathen Dawn said:

I serve the Gods out of love and not fear.

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I serve Jesus Christ out of love; not fear.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

Isaiah 53 said:

I serve Jesus Christ out of love; not fear.

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Do you not fear Hell? And does not the Bible say “the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord”?

"He who is not for me is against me”, allegedly the words of the founder

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Actually, according to the gospels Jesus said: "Whoever is not against us is for us." (Mark 9.40). If you could give me a scriptual reference for your remark, it would be an interesting contradiction.

Lyle said:

Perhaps left better to those who have such... What is your attitude towards the truth.. Or if I were to ask you if you knew if I was even real/ to prove it to e.

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This makes no sense, and fails to convey any sort of point in your argument. What are you trying to say?

Lyle said:

For who can one sport the title of hate, while another sports the title of love.. And these two exist in the same place of peace. Because one by nature would rise up against the other...

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Why do they have to be Love versus Hate. That dualism does not exist in Wicca, and solves many problems for us. You might like to try it.

Lyle said:

Then in and of herself there is no good.... If she teaches love for the human spirit, then she teaches there is no right or wrong.. And if there be no right or wrong, then she is as the snad of the seashore... She cannot be the one true goddess, because there is no standard to set her beliefs by.. By this, everyman is right...

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Wrong again Lyle (please proof read). Teaching love for the human spirit does not necessarily mean that there is no right and wrong. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As far as her being the one true Goddess, I fail to see how you can say there is no standard to set her beliefs by. The OP only mentioned certain aspect of faith. It was a dissertation on all the tenets of the posters spirituality. If she is the one true Goddess then She will set her own standard.

Lyle said:

But again, your goddess does nto hold truth, because to hold truth is to hold the way of happiness.. Which is not to love the human spirit.

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So are you saying that loving the human spirit is contrary to happiness? Would you rather we look down upon the human spirit?

Lyle said:

Can you indeed show it to be one-soded? The truth is always "one-sided," because to be otherwise makes it no truth at all.... The Bible is error free, and has not been changed throghout the years... Nor does it go against logic.. No other writing of any religion can boast this.

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Your assertation that Bible is error-free is one based on faith, which is fine, but faith in truth does not a true thing make. Not changing your opinion for 2000 years does not make it any more truthful either. Your statement that no other religion can boast this is likewise incorrect. Also, you cannot say that in 2000 years there will not be other religious texts which have gone unchanged. Christianity doesn't get a bonus for coming before other religions.

Lyle said:

Hold on a second... You say that you believe the end is that we find happiness on this earth and love for the human spirit. Yet you would show such distain fo the Bible... As to make my path in life bitter? Perhaps I am in error to you, but then again, you do not believe in truth..... So now what? Can you indeed prove the Bible to be false.

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Silver showed no true disdain for the Bible. Silver simply questioned its authority and stated that to her it held no more authority than any other text. That is not disdain, that's called being critical (in the academic sense) of a text. Silver does not believe in truth? Thats a pretty harsh statement, and probably a terribly incorrect one. Just because one does not believe in your truth doesnt mean one does'nt believe in Truth in general.

Lyle said:

Yet you said that you may be wrong, and you accept this.. Then you say that the Bible is wrong.. Yet you openly admit that you yourself be wrong. So if you indeed by wrong, how do you trust to bring the Bible down? In the end not knowing what is the tru path of truth...

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There is nothing wrong in admiting that you cannot be sure you are on the right path. You cannot have faith without a certain degree of doubt. The rest of your comment is incomprehensible. Take some more time in getting your point across, that way we won't have to decipher it ourselves.

Lyle said:

Or so this is all written in what you have stated yourself...

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Once again, I really can't tell what you are trying to say. Please, from now on, re-read your posts, and use the spell check button. It's hard to take a poorly written (let alone constructed) argument seriously.

Blessed Be!

MoonlessNight said:

Actually, according to the gospels Jesus said: "Whoever is not against us is for us." (Mark 9.40). If you could give me a scriptual reference for your remark, it would be an interesting contradiction.

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“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” — Matthew 12:30

Why do they have to be Love versus Hate. That dualism does not exist in Wicca, and solves many problems for us. You might like to try it.

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I was merely using it as an example... Gods of two different natures cannot co-exist...

Wrong again Lyle (please proof read). Teaching love for the human spirit does not necessarily mean that there is no right and wrong. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As far as her being the one true Goddess, I fail to see how you can say there is no standard to set her beliefs by. The OP only mentioned certain aspect of faith. It was a dissertation on all the tenets of the posters spirituality. If she is the one true Goddess then She will set her own standard.

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No (please re-read)
He should believe her to be such is she has indeed "spoken to him." But notwithstanding... There can be no justice if you teach the love of the human spirit...
The Muslims hate the Jews and desire to kill them, this is wrong to the Jews therefore deserves justice.. The line must be drawn at some [point.. And to love the human spirit is to bow beneath the teachings and beliefs of each culture.. If one goes against another.....

So are you saying that loving the human spirit is contrary to happiness? Would you rather we look down upon the human spirit?

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No, in this case, happiness would be subjective....

Your assertation that Bible is error-free is one based on faith, which is fine, but faith in truth does not a true thing make.

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No, fact.. Personally I have written out countless pages, answering material that people thought went against the Bible.. Or made it go against itself... The Bible has never been proven wrong, though men have tried.... Might I add that the Bible has not been changed.. Over it's full existance, it is exactly the same... This is fact, not faith, they have found original scrolls...

Your statement that no other religion can boast this is likewise incorrect. Also, you cannot say that in 2000 years there will not be other religious texts which have gone unchanged.

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Give me any religion and I can prove it wrong against itself.. I have done it before, as have many others. But I will not debate further with you on this matter because I did not write any of the original post that i did for you.. Nor was this theard started towards you... Nothing i say will change you mind...

Heathen Dawn said:

“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.” — Matthew 12:30

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It seems that Luke 11.23 says that, now that I look. Like I said before, an interesting contradiction. If one is neutral towards Christianity, are they for it or against it?

They are against Christ in that they don't believe He is the son of God and God Himself and who died to clean the sins of mankind and don't accept Him as their saviour, but they are with Him in that they honestly agree with His lessons about love, peace and forgiveness among men.

Heathen Dawn said:

Do you not fear Hell? And does not the Bible say “the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord”?

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No, I do not fear hell, because I know that I am saved from hell.If I was not saved, then I would fear Hell.

Fear of the Lord means to give Him respect.

originally posted by : Lyle
How did this "goddess" show you? And what is your understanding of Christianity? Indeed, to believe in many deities is a belief that itself collapses within on it... For who can one sport the title of hate, while another sports the title of love.. And these two exist in the same place of peace. Because one by nature would rise up against the other....

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As a rule Pagans are simultaneously monotheistic and polytheistic. There is a popular pagan saying: all Gods are one God and all Goddesses are one Goddess. Basically we believe that all individuals deities are aspects or personas of the ultimate Divine being. (and this includes the Christian God) The ultimate Divine is by definition rather abstract, the personas exist to aid the individual in having a personal relationship with the Divine.



This view of the Divine allows us to participate in rituals and in prayer to Gods and Goddess we normally don’t work with. For example I usually do not engage with Egyptian deities but I have a friend who does, we can happily worship together because we understand that ultimately worshiping the same Divine being despite the differing names, myths and appearances. This also allows me to participate in Christian rituals and have them have some meaning for me.

Then in and of herself there is no good.... If she teaches love for the human spirit, then she teaches there is no right or wrong.. And if there be no right or wrong, then she is as the snad of the seashore... She cannot be the one true goddess, because there is no standard to set her beliefs by.. By this, everyman is right...

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I continually run into Christians who for whatever reason believe that Pagans have relativistic ethics. Where do you get this idea?

Can you indeed show it to be one-soded? The truth is always "one-sided," because to be otherwise makes it no truth at all.... The Bible is error free, and has not been changed throghout the years... Nor does it go against logic.. No other writing of any religion can boast this...

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It is your belief that the bible is error free, not truth.

Hold on a second... You say that you believe the end is that we find happiness on this earth and love for the human spirit. Yet you would show such distain fo the Bible... As to make my path in life bitter? Perhaps I am in error to you, but then again, you do not believe in truth..... So now what? Can you indeed prove the Bible to be false.

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And once again you are making accusations of moral relativism.

It seems you do not actually know much about Paganism, its beliefs, or its ethics.

Volos, if someone worships gods who condone sadistic behaviour and require blood offerings, would they be worshipping different "facets" of the same deity as you?

Lyle said:

Can you indeed show it to be one-soded? The truth is always "one-sided," because to be otherwise makes it no truth at all.... The Bible is error free, and has not been changed throghout the years... Nor does it go against logic.. No other writing of any religion can boast this...

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Hasn't been changed? What, did you just forget the the Catholic Church edited it with a butchers knife in the 3rd century, dropping out about 5 different Gospels, and that it had to be translated from 2 other languages before it was translated into English?

And there are many other religious books that are older or just as old as The Bible and have still withstood the test of time. Tao-te-ching, Upanishads, and the Veda are some.

As for it not going against logic, well then that would make logic a relative term as well.

Lyle, you really believe what you are saying, don't you?
Every translation of the Bible differs to some degree, so that one reads: "In the beginning there was the word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word."
The next: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a divine being." The next: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
Many Christians have clubbed each other do death over such trifling matters. Yet if you want proof for the limited proof of the Bible, what about this?

- Jesus genealogy is listed in two different gospels. Each states that Jesus belongs to the house of David, via Joseph. But Joseph isn't his father, so he does not have any biological ties to David. Even more important, both genealogies differ greatly! Not only do they list different names, they also list a different number of generations between David and Jesus. Not just two or three, but about a dozen, thus making it a matter of up to 100 years plus or minus.

- Abraham trades camels in order to find a wife for his son. But if you follow the Bible to the letter and assume that the timeline is correct, then Abraham did so a thousand years before this kind of animal became domesticated.

- When the Hebrews leave Israel, their numbers are far too large for that time. There weren't so many people around back then. Besides, there is nothing to back up this story in ANY egyptian account. And they wouldn't so easily omit matters of such magnificence as heaven-sent plagues, pillars of fire or a pharao perishing in the waters of the ocean...

- The chronology of the gospels is messed up as soon as you compare them. Especially John lists a completely different path, furthermore the last supper is held on different days, and when asked if he is the messiah, Jesus gives two different answers in different gospels - and not just trifles, but wholly contradictory.

You want more? Alright! According to the bible, the world is merely 5,000 years old. But look at the continents, look at the bones of homo erectus, mammoths and so forth. Look at the traces glaciers left, or at the layers of earth that have accumulated in the course of time. Look at any palaeonthological book, history book or whatever, as long as it is not written with the sole purpose to PROVE at any cost that the Bible is without fault. Because that's what fanatical Christians do.

Heathen Dawn said:

Do you not fear Hell? And does not the Bible say “the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord”?

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Do I fear hell? No. The fear you are speaking of is not fear, as in me cowering in the corner. The fear referred to in regard to God is in the term of respect.

I do not fear God because I listen to Him and obey His commands.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

A few nitpicks, Volos, if I may, with due respect...

Volos said:

As a rule Pagans are simultaneously monotheistic and polytheistic.

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You can’t be simultaneously monotheistic and polytheistic, because monotheism is the belief that only one god exists. The term you may be looking for is monolatry or henotheism, the worship of one deity in preference to the others without denying the existence of the others.

There is a popular pagan saying: all Gods are one God and all Goddesses are one Goddess.

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That’s a Wiccan, not general pagan, saying. Duotheism is the standard theology of Wicca, but not all pagans, not even all Wiccans, accept it. I’m a non-Wiccan pagan and I don’t believe all Gods are one God and all Goddesses one Goddess—I believe all Gods and Goddesses are distinct and unique, albeit the spectral colours of one overarching Divinity (soft polytheism, or polytheism combined with pantheism; those who deny the “overarching Divinity” part would be hard polytheists).