Addressing so-called Paganisms in the Catholic Church

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VOW

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I've seen numerous references to so-called pagan origins of some of the practices or things found in the Catholic Church. Here are some interesting Scriptural quotations:

Robes of Priests
Exodus 28: 2-5
2 For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made. 3 Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest. 4 These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod (probably a type of apron), a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter, and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests, 5 they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.

The Dwelling (in regard to fancy decorations, paintings, stained glass windows, etc)
Exodus 38: 32-43
32 Thus the entire work of the Dwelling of the meeting tent was completed. The Israelites did the work just as the LORD had commanded Moses. 33 They then brought to Moses the Dwelling, the tent with all its appurtenances, the clasps, the boards, the bars, the columns, the pedestals, 34 the covering of rams' skins dyed red, the covering of tahash skins, the curtain veil; 35 the ark of the commandments with its poles, the propitiatory, 36 the table with all its appurtenances and the showbread, 37 the pure gold lampstand with its lamps set up on it and with all its appurtenances, the oil for the light, 38 the golden altar, the anointing oil, the fragrant incense; the curtain for the entrance of the tent, 39 the altar of bronze with its bronze grating, its poles and all its appurtenances, the laver with its base, 40 the hangings of the court with their columns and pedestals, the curtain for the entrance of the court with its ropes and tent pegs, all the equipment for the service of the Dwelling and the meeting tent; 41 the service cloths for use in the sanctuary, the sacred vestments for Aaron the priest, and the vestments to be worn by his sons in their ministry. 42 The Israelites had carried out all the work just as the LORD had commanded Moses. 43 So when Moses saw that all the works was done just as the LORD had commanded, he blessed them.


Cereal Offerings (in regards to incense)
Leviticus 2: 1-3
1 When anyone wishes to bring a cereal offering to the LORD, his offering must consist of fine flour. He shall pour oil on it and put frankincense over it. 2 When he has brought it to Aaron's sons, the priests, one of them shall take a handful of this fine flour and oil, together with all the frankincense, and this he shall burn on the altar as a token offering, a sweet-smelling oblation to the LORD. 3 The rest of the cereal offering belongs to Aaron and his sons. It is a most sacred oblation to the LORD.

Showbread (in regards to the round shape of the Bread used in Communion)
Leviticus 24: 5-9
5 You shall take fine flour and bake it into twelve cakes (note: CAKES, NOT LOAVES), using two tenths of an ephah of flour for each cake. 6 These you shall place in two piles, six in each pile, on the pure gold table before the LORD. 7 On each pile put some pure frankincense, which shall serve as an oblation to the LORD, a token offering for the bread. 8 Regularly on each sabbath day this bread shall be set out afresh before the LORD, offered on the part of the Israelites by an everlasting agreement. 9 It shall belong to Aaron and his sons, who must eat it in a sacred place, since, as something most sacred among the various oblations to the LORD, it is his by perpetual right.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 

seebs

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Originally posted by Catchup
I wonder do you have any NT references? What can you find that would indicate how Jesus would want the Christian Church? Are your references more in line with a Jewish synagog?

The point is, if they're Jewish traditions, they're not "pagan".

I personally doubt whether God particularly cares whether the Communion wafers are round, square, or shaped like duckies and bunnies. However, if He has a preference, perhaps it's for the very cakes that were made as an offering to Him; after all, they are now His offering to us.
 
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VOW

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Seebs, I love you, will you marry me?

(oh, wait, I'm already married!)

To Catchup:

Seebs is absolutely right. I've heard much howling and screaming about all the paganistic practices adopted by the Catholic Church to "make nice" with the heathens they forcibly converted.

God was VERY specific to Moses in how worship and the accouterments should be. And there is absolutely NO HARM in using some of the Jewish customs in honoring God.

Same God, right?


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Blackhawk

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Vow,

I have no problem with it as long as it is not something that is regarded as essential or that you would break fellowship with me because I do things differently. Another words if I did not use incense in my church then i will go to hell.

These ae really small things that we can do in different ways and be happy in our diversity.

blackhawk
 
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KC Catholic

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Blackhawk -

It's not about what separates us - it's trying to clarify that practices within the Catholic Church are not paganistic, which is usually an anti-Catholic tactic in debates.

If all else fails - call 'em pagans.

If you don't use incense - that's cool with the church.

Btw....Journey (the band) now has Faithfully and Lights Incense for sale on their website! ;)
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by KC Catholic
Well..Jesus was Jewish!

"I'm not just the King of the Jews, but I'm also a member!"

(If you've never seen Hair Club for Men commercials on TV, this won't make sense.)
 
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Catchup

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Catholics... Relax!!!!

I am not in the attack mode. I asked a simple question.

Jumpy aren't ya? :D

I have noticed if you do not have an answer then you either belittle...get mad...or change the subject.

What's with that??? I thought we were all family?

Read my post...
but please do not read into my post. :rolleyes:

:) LOVE
 
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VOW

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To Catchup:

Yeah, we're a jumpy bunch. Because it sure seems people try to ARGUE us into finally figuring out how WRONG the Church is.

And when we don't agree, they get aggressive.

And WE aren't the ones doing the belittling, Hon.

What have we NOT answered? ANY question posed to Catholicism has always been answered completely, from what I've seen!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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KC Catholic

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Catchup -

The problem is we do provide answers, but they are dismissed as "unbiblical", "made up" or "that does not fit into my personal beliefs."

We hear it all the time so if we're getting a bit punch and slap-happy you'll try and understand.

There is nothing that we can say or do to convince those who are dead set against the Catholic Church that there is nothing amiss or unbiblical taking place.

We are kind, understanding and extremely tolerant of all that we put up with repeatedly.

And I would say that if we were apply the same intensity and heat to your beliefs and those who like to argue with us that you would not stand for it for one minute without losing your cool.

So, you need to relax.
 
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Blackhawk

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KC,

I understand. I just wanted to make that statement. I really did not think that VOW was saying that she would break fellowship with me because of this.

This was what i was mostly trying to get across.

"These ae really small things that we can do in different ways and be happy in our diversity. "

That we are all Christians and we can be happy in our diversity in the nonessentials. i personally like to worship in the ways of other denominations. While I was in portland not too long ago I went to a mass at the Grotto and it was a very good worship experience. i wanted to also speak to a monk to see about how they worship God in their daily life but that did not pan out.

i am saying that we can all learn from eachother in these things and do try the worship styles and customs of other denominations.

blackhawk
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Catchup

Read my post...
but please do not read into my post. :rolleyes:

Hmm. You said "I wonder do you have any NT references? What can you find that would indicate how Jesus would want the Christian Church? Are your references more in line with a Jewish synagog?"

Now, that sounds to me like an accusation (implied, perhaps, but an accusation nonetheless) that these practices should not be part of a Christian church, because the references that led to them are OT. Given that it's in the context of showing that these practices are not pagan in origin, however, it seems like a simple point missed.

The question was "Are these practices pagan in origin?", and the answer is clearly "No."

(If I don't seem relaxed, don't worry; I'm not Catholic, so I'm not covered by the injunction on Catholics to relax.)
 
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KC Catholic

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Originally posted by Blackhawk
"These ae really small things that we can do in different ways and be happy in our diversity. "

Absolutely!

Originally posted by Blackhawk
That we are all Christians and we can be happy in our diversity in the nonessentials. i personally like to worship in the ways of other denominations. While I was in portland not too long ago I went to a mass at the Grotto and it was a very good worship experience. i wanted to also speak to a monk to see about how they worship God in their daily life but that did not pan out.

That's too bad...I'm sure it was cool.

i am saying that we can all learn from eachother in these things and do try the worship styles and customs of other denominations.

blackhawk [/B]

True, its just that some of us can't get over the hurdle of mistrust and concern someone is trying to convert us to something we're not comfortable with.

If waving your hands in the air "Like ya just don't care" to praise the lord - that's OK, that's not paganistic and its not unholy! Problem is...there are those paranoid folks who have to jump in and give their $.02.

We're cool. :cool: ;)
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by Blackhawk

That we are all Christians and we can be happy in our diversity in the nonessentials. i personally like to worship in the ways of other denominations. While I was in portland not too long ago I went to a mass at the Grotto and it was a very good worship experience. i wanted to also speak to a monk to see about how they worship God in their daily life but that did not pan out.

That's an excellent attitude. It's important to start by recognizing that all the other Christians *are* Christians, even when they disagree with you.
 
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