Christ as the Rock

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Well, since all the Catholic are gone... I think it's good if we can discuss and affirm faith together why Jesus is the Rock in Mat 16:18 and not Peter...

Old Testaments

De 32:4
He is the Rock , His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

2Sa 22:32 and Psalm 18:31
"For who is God, except the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God?

Old Testament has teaches us that KIng David and Samuel has told us that there will be no one can be the rock except God....

New Testament

1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Ephesians 2:20-22
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

Re 21:14
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.


The two verses has clearly stated that Peter was one of the foundations and therefore, cannot be the rock of the the Holy Temple of God since he is put the same as the rest of the apostles of Jesus.

Jesus, therefore is the rock.

Got any verses to support?
 

GreenEyedLady

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So far i have found 23 verses that say Jesus/God is our Rock.
Here are just a few

Deuteronomy 32:15  ¶But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deuteronomy 32:18  Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
Deuteronomy 32:30  How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31  For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
2 Samuel 23:3  The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
1 Corinthians 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

It is CLEAR as CRYSTAL to me that the bible PROVES that the Rock is Christ, not Peter. There is just not enough evidence in the bible to support that theory.
GEL
 
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niwde

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it is your own belief,i will not say anything,i respect you

all i want to say that the verses you qouted ARE NOT FROM THE FOUR GOSPELS OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,NOT SPOKEN BY HIMSELF,i place the highest authority into christ mouth,
he stated it clearly,and i don't see any thing can satnd against it.
i am not saying the bible is not valid,but that verse it is spoken by christ
"everything shall pass away,BUT MY WORDS SHALL NEVER PASS AWAY"
THIS CAUSE A CHAIN REACTION TO WHATEVER THE PONTIFF SAY FOR CHRIST SAID"WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH,SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN,WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH,SHALL BE LOST IN HEAVEN"
jesus is giving his authority to govern his flock while he is away,someone to consult and lead.

what you qouted is true but they are slighly,lower than christ
you said clearly that king solomon and samuel TEACHES us
the letter to the euphesians is written by St paul who mainly and always encourage the infant church,the revelation is revealed to St john,
and we know that the book of revelation is full of symbolism
 
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KC Catholic

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Originally posted by JOhnPreparer
Well, since all the Catholic are gone

John - just so you know the Catholics are NOT GONE from this forum. Your group has been granted a forum of their own - much like the Catholics "One Bread, One Body" forum.

Enjoy this new home and meeting place - and we all can still debate in the new "Protestant, Catholic and Jewish Meeting Place (formerly Interfaith Discussion.)

Just FYI...in case you get bored here! ;)
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by JOhnPreparer
Well, since all the Catholic are gone... I think it's good if we can discuss and affirm faith together why Jesus is the Rock in Mat 16:18 and not Peter...

And after that, let's chortle and cackle as we laugh, thinking of all those snobbish Catholics burning in Hell for their heresies. Then let's roast marshmallows, for symbolism!

I don't approve of the implicit "we can talk about the Catholics behind their backs" thing - can you tell?

Frankly, I consider it laughable to claim that the Rock referred to in 16:18 is not Peter. It's a *PUN*. Christ has a sense of humor. He *jokes*. Peter == PETROS, "rock".

This was one of the things we discussed in my *LUTHERAN* confirmation class; Peter was, indeed, the "rock" referred to.

This is separate from any question of Apostolic succession or any such thing; it may *only* have been a pun.

I just object to portraying this as something where we can all sit around self-affirming without fear of contradiction, just 'cuz there's no Catholics.

Believing that Peter is the Rock described in Matthew 16:18 seems to me to be eminently reasonable no matter what.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by VOW
::: grabbing seebs by the collar and yanking him off to the Catholic Discussion Board :::

Sorry, folks, he got loose. We'll make sure the gate is securely locked!

But I'm *not* Catholic! Some day, when there's a lull in the constant harassment, I plan to pick a number of bones of doctrine with you guys. ;)
 
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Yeah I have to say I don't approve of knocking Catholics just because they believe Peter is the Rock. We need to just focus on what we believe. Catholics are intelligent enough to explain why they believe what they believe if asked.

Let's just stick to the basic discussion of why we believe what we believe..meaning those of us that believe Jesus is the Rock.

Missy
 
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1Co 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ .

I believe this verse said it all.... A black and white proof from the mouth of the Apostle Paul... or is he lying???

A person who being chosen first hand by Jesus is lying.... Hmmnnn..... something a bit too large to swallow...

I feel weird with the way Catholic interpret the bible, it is always to the benefits of their Church ....
Mat 16:18 - can be interpreted with ease by them but when come to 1 Cor 10:4, they have to twist and turn the meaning and concluded by saying the word of Paul are not trustworthy enough or simple word - lying.

Old Testament also show without denial that God is the only one who is referred as the solid rock and none worthy of being called a rock except the Almighty.

Come again, the Catholic saying that the Old testament is wrong (I'm not talking at their back, they are the one who admit it)

Well, since the Old and New Testament is wrong, the why it is written in the first place... Why not just throw them out and then, everything will be perfect for the Catholic... isn't it?....

GOD gives the bible for a purpose and the purpose is not to take the verse that can support you but to use all the verses that function as one.

jp-66 books (73 for Catholics) and every words means business with GOD.
 
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KC Catholic

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John -

This new forum is NOT a "Bash the Catholics" free-for-all. The Rules apply here just like they did in the other forums.

There is nothing wrong with challenging beliefs, teachings, etc - but there is a line that you are crossing over.

Simmer down.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by MissytheButterfly
Yeah I have to say I don't approve of knocking Catholics just because they believe Peter is the Rock. We need to just focus on what we believe. Catholics are intelligent enough to explain why they believe what they believe if asked.

Let's just stick to the basic discussion of why we believe what we believe..meaning those of us that believe Jesus is the Rock.

Well, this is for *all* of us non-denominationals. I'm willing to grant that, in other places, "the rock" may not be Peter. However, it's clear to me that the specific reference in Matthew is to Peter, and that it's a pun.

I mean, imagine if your real name were "Missy Butterfly", and someone said "Ahh, you're Madame Butterfly, and the nectar of this church is for you." It would be *TOTALLY* clear that this was a pun about your name, right?

Same kind of thing, only Christ makes much better jokes than I do.
 
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eldermike

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Seebs said: <Same kind of thing, only Christ makes much better jokes than I do.>


Seebs, you have this verse nailed. I would not call it a joke but a teaching. Jesus was a teacher and this fully repersents His teaching style.

Blessings
 
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eldermike

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There is something we are all missing in this discussion.
The word rock has deeper meaning for Christians than to replace the word God. If you call the rock "The rock of salvation" then you get to a deeper meaning and more in line with want Jesus was teaching Peter. Jesus told Peter that trying to keep Him from the cross was the same thing that Satan tried to do. When He taught Peter that because He knew who He was and where He was going and why then Jesus said "this is the rock"

Rock = Jesus died for me/you

God has always been God, but the cross + God = the rock on which He builds His church.

Blessings
 
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Originally posted by seebs


Well, this is for *all* of us non-denominationals. I'm willing to grant that, in other places, &quot;the rock&quot; may not be Peter. However, it's clear to me that the specific reference in Matthew is to Peter, and that it's a pun.

I mean, imagine if your real name were &quot;Missy Butterfly&quot;, and someone said &quot;Ahh, you're Madame Butterfly, and the nectar of this church is for you.&quot; It would be *TOTALLY* clear that this was a pun about your name, right?

Same kind of thing, only Christ makes much better jokes than I do.


:rolleyes: :D
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by eldermike
There is something we are all missing in this discussion.

Many things. I see your interpretation in there too. I also heard another.

I was talking about this with a good friend of mine, who observes that he was always taught that the rock was *faith*. Simon had faith, and because faith was the rock, Jesus started calling him "Peter".

This makes good sense to me, and fits better with the context.

It turns out to be a fairly complicated thing to interpret, subject to multiple plausible interpretations.
 
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eldermike

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Seebs,

I hear you. There can be multiple plausible explanations. However, When Jesus died on the cross everything changed, we were forgiven. The thing that we could not do was done. Some men had faith before the cross but not even Peter was forgiven until Jesus died on the cross. I beleive this is one of those issue we should have right. And there are not many issue that actually matter, but this is one of them.

Blessings
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by eldermike

I hear you. There can be multiple plausible explanations. However, When Jesus died on the cross everything changed, we were forgiven. The thing that we could not do was done. Some men had faith before the cross but not even Peter was forgiven until Jesus died on the cross. I beleive this is one of those issue we should have right. And there are not many issue that actually matter, but this is one of them.

Yeah. I'm just not sure how to make progress given multiple plausible interpretations, all of which are consistent.

I don't think it makes sense to interpret the word rock *in this sentence* as referring to Christ himself; it should refer either to Simon Peter (the subject of the first part of the sentence) or to his profession of faith (which was what prompted this sentence in response).

Hmm. Actually, re-reading it, I'm just confused again. Uhm. "It clearly means something". I'll go that far with confidence.
 
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