According to the Greek, supported by all of the translators, the REASON it is "adunatos", is because of their UNBELIEF.And regardless of that, if you are "powerless" to come back to repentance, it would still be impossible.
"For God showed His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". He loved us before we were Christian, while we were unsaved. Is it such a stretch to imagine that He will still love us, though we disbelieve and perish???Our security is not based on our performance, what's amazing is that, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."
That is not "what Ben is ignoring", it is PRECISELY what ben has been SAYING ALL ALONG!it just dawned on me the what Ben is ignoring, is the fact that the falling away is caused by "sin".
...but FIRST, it requires repentance! Without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins!Sin causes death, forgiveness of sin requires the "shedding of blood"
The THEORY of OSNAS presumes to teach the result of this sin unto death, alienates this person from the faithfulness of God (no---God is forever faithful), and in reality denies the power of God to preserve his own from the effects of SIN, in spite of themselves (no---it denies THATthe WILL of God IS to PRESERVE HIS OWN IN SPITE OF THEMSELVES). Which is a blasphameous claim, a denial of the power of the BLOOD that has bought him. (NOT if that "power of the blood" was provided contingent upon our belief...)
Sounds like a good idea to me. How about: "You who are seeking to return to justification-by-law, you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace!"? Or, maybe: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."? Maybe I should read, "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things you will never stumble, and in this way the ENTRANCE TO HEAVEN WILL BE ABUNDANTLY PROVIDED YOU!"? Or, coult it be: "My brethren, if any among you wanders from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."?Ben you need to stand back and consider Heb 6 in the light of the WHOLE WORD of GOD.
10:22 "Let us draw near with a sincere (true) heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us HOLD FAST the confession of our hope WITHOUT WAVERING, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together... For if we continue sinning willfuly after receiving the knowedge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins but a certain terrifying expectation of a judgment and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer ppunishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regaded as unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace??? For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay'. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people. It is a TERRIFYING THING to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becomin sharers with those who were so treated. For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one.Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Heb12:2 "Keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, the archegos and teleiotes of faith." UH-oh! He's goin' to the GREEK again!WE ARE PRONE TO WONDER BUT, HE EXHORTS TO KEEP OUR EYES ON JESUS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
I "understand" John10:28 thusly: "Pluck" is "harpazo", "seize-or-remove-forcibly" (the exact same word used for "rapture" in 1Thess4). The verse says "no ONE can remove YOU FORCIBLY. Does this invalidate the premise that you can be deceived by sin, and fall away willingly? It does not.
Can "OSAS" proponents deal with the verses WE ("OSNAS" proponents) have submitted, similarly?
For your personal belief system, Julie, you may say whatever you wish. However, according to the Rules of the Forum, it is not up to you to make that judgment.
It's apparent to anyone that when two things are in complete contradiction to each other that they are NOT the same and one is in error . Thats not just judgement but common sense.
I agree. BUt there are those who argue, "It's only a HYPOTHETICAL, it can't REALLY HAPPEN. Just as Rev3:5 doesn't really mean your name can be BLOTTED. It's only a HYPOTHETICAL/RHETORICAL..."If it were possible , means it is impossible
"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He appeared to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; and in Him there is no sin." 1Jn3:4-5 And yet, in chapter 1 it says (8-9) "If we say that we have no sin the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
Why are our sins "covered by the blood of Jesus"? Is it not by repentance? Are we not forgiven when we receive Him as Lord and Savior? If the WHOLE THING is abiding in Him, then if we CEASE from "abiding", then are we still covered by His blood? (Which is also to say, if we GRIEVE the Holy Spirit, will the seal REMAIN?)s I stated before, those that have been born of God are no longer under the law of "sin and death" but under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and is this is true, the the law and "sin and death" has no more power to cause death, and the sins of these are not imputed (or counted against them) because their sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.
So then, Paul was WRONG? That in the latter days some will NOT FALL FROM THE FAITH? Or is this just a weeding-out of those who THOUGHT they were saved but NEVER-REALLY-WERE? They were DECEIVED about BEING SAVED???If you really believe what you want to teach, is true, then you will never see the true teaching of this GREAT TRUTH, God not only choses whom he will save, but he also, gives them everything necessary to make it a reality and then keeps them from the the judgement of the laws and ordinances;
The question remains, what is the mechanism by which He has forgiven us, and made us alive in Him, and blotted out the "CERTIFICATE OF DEBT" (Rom6:23!), what is the WAY that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to work according to His good purpose"?Col2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses ; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross ;
Phlp 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
I do. Absolutely. As Jude said, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy..." He is ABLE---but does He do it without our will? Jude ALSO said, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life". Which did Jude believe---divine election, or free will?Put your faith in Him who is able to guide you into all truth.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
I agree. BUt there are those who argue, "It's only a HYPOTHETICAL, it can't REALLY HAPPEN. Just as Rev3:5 doesn't really mean your name can be BLOTTED . It's only a HYPOTHETICAL/RHETORICAL..."
I isolate? Take outta context? Often it is merely by READING the context that I (rather, SCRIPTURE) totally refutes the "OSAS" view. Did you see the post on Heb10:39? And my response???You take verses isolate them, to use them to try and prove your point;
The question remains---we all agree that "salvation is belief in Jesus", the question remains, can a person, later, disbelieve?5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hi, Richard. Yes I believe one's name CAN be "blotted from the book". Logically ( ), if one cannot enter Heaven save for their name being IN the book, then what of children? They MUST begin IN the book, for children who die young go to Heaven (Matt19:14). So EVERYONE is at one time "IN the Book", and those on the wrong path MUST have been "blotted"... I isolate? Take outta context? Often it is merely by READING the context that I (rather, SCRIPTURE) totally refutes the "OSAS" view. Did you see the post on Heb10:39? And my response??? The question remains---we all agree that "salvation is belief in Jesus", the question remains, can a person, later, disbelieve?
The Bible says YES. Many times...
Originally posted by LouisBooth
Good think that I'm not an earliest baptist church huh?