Gog and Magog

Status
Not open for further replies.

Starforsaken

Regular Member
Dec 29, 2004
568
21
✟823.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Why do I keep reading things where people are expecting forces from russia and that area to come down and attack israel, and be destroyed by god; in this time period?

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [size=-2]5[/size](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [size=-2]6[/size]Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years. [size=-2]7[/size]When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [size=-2]8[/size]and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. [size=-2]9[/size]They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. [size=-2]10[/size]And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20 says that this battle doesnt even happen untill after the tribulation and thousand years.
 

Hidden Manna

Veteran
Feb 21, 2004
1,206
11
68
✟8,918.00
Faith
Christian
Starforsaken said:
Why do I keep reading things where people are expecting forces from russia and that area to come down and attack israel, and be destroyed by god; in this time period?

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [size=-2]5[/size](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [size=-2]6[/size]Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years. [size=-2]7[/size]When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [size=-2]8[/size]and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. [size=-2]9[/size]They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. [size=-2]10[/size]And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20 says that this battle doesnt even happen untill after the tribulation and thousand years.

I see your point, however the tribulation did occur between AD 66 to 70. the 1000 years symbloiclly occured between the cross and the destruction of the jewish state in AD 70.

Gog and Magog
The second deceiving is after the 1000 years has expired. 1. Wars and rumors of war, the antichrist, and a falling away were signs of the first deception, maybe it will be the signs of the second. 2. Revelation 20:9 speaks to the last deception and the last of all battles. They the spirits( living have bodies) surround the camp of the saints and fire comes down from heaven and destroys them all. One of the difficulties in interpreting Rev. 20 is that as John was explaining things which must shortly come to pass like the binding of Satan.


There really is not two deceptions here. It is all the first century Jews.

For example the identity of Gog and Magog, I believe their identity is clear. Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations, which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saint and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them (Revelation 20:7-9)

The fate of Gog and Magog is to burn with fire from God out of heaven. This is the same as the fate of ‘Babylon’ and the ‘Mother of Harlots.’ We read in Revelation 17&18...And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her (Revelation 18:8).

A clue, given us by God is showing Gog and Magog’s numbers to be as the sand of the sea. It was God’s covenant promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. No other people received that promise. The Lord does not want us to leave our common sense behind when we read Revelation.

Another very important consideration is this: Gog and Magog were enemies of God. In chapter 11 God calls Jerusalem spiritually as Sodom and Egypt. The unbelieving Jews have become like their ancient enemies. In Ezekiel 38 and 39 the prophet speaks about Gog and Magog coming against the people of God. Ezekiel also receives a word that the Lord will destroy the multitudes of Gog and Magog with fire.

Have you ever wondered why God used the names of Israel’s former enemies when referring to the Christ rejecting Jews? The answer is really simple. Israel’s enemies, throughout the Bible, warred, and plotted and attacked the people of God.

By God calling fleshly Israel the same names as her former enemies the Lord showing everyone that Israel is now the enemy of the true people of God. Fleshly Israel fought against Jesus Christ and His followers the church (Acts 4-1-27). Like

Israel’s ancient enemies they could not succeed. And fire
came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
144,666
17,342
USA/Belize
✟1,738,795.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Starforsaken said:
Why do I keep reading things where people are expecting forces from russia and that area to come down and attack israel, and be destroyed by god; in this time period?

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [size=-2]5[/size](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [size=-2]6[/size]Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years. [size=-2]7[/size]When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [size=-2]8[/size]and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. [size=-2]9[/size]They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. [size=-2]10[/size]And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20 says that this battle doesnt even happen untill after the tribulation and thousand years.

The reference in Rev. 20 shows the problem with those that rebel. I am not convinced of a war before the Tribulation.
Did you read any of the OT prophecy relating to this? How the weapons are used for fire for 7 years?

Eze 38:1 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,

Eze 38:2 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him

Eze 38:3 and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.

Eze 38:4 "I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company {with} buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords;

Eze 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia and Put with them, all of them {with} shield and helmet;

Eze 38:6 Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah {from} the remote parts of the north with all its troops--many peoples with you.

Eze 38:7 "Be prepared, and prepare yourself, you and all your companies that are assembled about you, and be a guard for them.

Eze 38:8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, {whose inhabitants} have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

Eze 38:9 "You will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you."

Eze 38:10 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan,

Eze 38:11 and you will say, 'I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls and having no bars or gates,

Eze 38:12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places which are {now} inhabited, and against the people who are gathered from the nations, who have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of the world.'

Eze 38:13 "Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish with all its villages will say to you, 'Have you come to capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture great spoil?' '"

Eze 38:14 "Therefore prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On that day when My people Israel are living securely, will you not know {it?}

Eze 38:15 "You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;
Eze 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog."
Eze 38:17 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for {many} years that I would bring you against them?
Eze 38:18 "It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "that My fury will mount up in My anger.
Eze 38:19 "In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare {that} on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
Eze 38:20 "The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 "I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains," declares the Lord GOD. "Every man's sword will be against his brother.

Eze 38:22 "With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone.

Eze 38:23 "I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD.'"
Eze 39:1 "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal;

Eze 39:2 and I will turn you around, drive you on, take you up from the remotest parts of the north and bring you against the mountains of Israel.

Eze 39:3 "I will strike your bow from your left hand and dash down your arrows from your right hand.

Eze 39:4 "You will fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field.

Eze 39:5 "You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken," declares the Lord GOD.

Eze 39:6 "And I will send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands in safety; and they will know that I am the LORD.

Eze 39:7 "My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Eze 39:8 "Behold, it is coming and it shall be done," declares the Lord GOD. "That is the day of which I have spoken.

Eze 39:9 "Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn {them,} both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them.

Eze 39:10 "They will not take wood from the field or gather firewood from the forests, for they will make fires with the weapons; and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them and seize the plunder of those who plundered them," declares the Lord GOD.


After the Gog and Magog of Rev. 20 is the creation of the new heavens and earth...and the Great white throne judgment...yet in Ezekile 29 starting verse 11, we see that God plans to make a burial ground for those that go against Israel.
Eze 39:11 "On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call {it} the valley of Hamon-gog.

Eze 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.

Eze 39:13 "Even all the people of the land will bury {them;} and it will be to their renown {on} the day that I glorify Myself," declares the Lord GOD.

Eze 39:14 "They will set apart men who will constantly pass through the land, burying those who were passing through, even those left on the surface of the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search.
 
Upvote 0

unbound

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2004
2,068
37
51
✟17,431.00
Faith
Christian
Starforsaken said:
Why do I keep reading things where people are expecting forces from russia and that area to come down and attack israel, and be destroyed by god; in this time period?

I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [size=-2]5[/size](The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. [size=-2]6[/size]Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years. [size=-2]7[/size]When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison [size=-2]8[/size]and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. [size=-2]9[/size]They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. [size=-2]10[/size]And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20 says that this battle doesnt even happen untill after the tribulation and thousand years.


I believe they are two kingdoms in a heavenly realm.

Zechariah 6:5
And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Starforsaken said:
Why do I keep reading things where people are expecting forces from russia and that area to come down and attack israel, and be destroyed by god; in this time period? ...

Revelation 20 says that this battle doesnt even happen untill after the tribulation and thousand years.

Your question seems to include two parts.
First, why do we think Gog and Magog means Russia? And second, why do we put it into the tribulation time frame?

In regard to the first question, The Bible is an ancient book. Being an ancient book, it called nations by their ancient names. To identify the current identities of these nations, it is necessary to know the identities of the ancient peoples named in the Bible. To know these, we need to know a certain amount about ancient geography and history. One of the most commonly known and relied upon sources of such ancient geographical and historical information was Flavius Josephus. This man was a Jew who wrote in the Greek Language. The ancient Christians called him Philolotes, meaning lover of the truth, because he clearly stated a belief in Jesus. He is commonly refered to today as simply Josephus.

Josephus identified the nations mentioned in Genesis 10 by their Greeek names. this identification included the statement that "Magog is the father of the Magogites, who are by the Greeks called Scythians."

This is the best known, but far from the only, ancient source that clearly identifies Magog as Russia, for it is common knowledge that the ancient Scythians were a nomadic people that occupied the steepe lands, or praries, of the area now known as the Ukraine in southern Russia.

I once handed a Russian Bible to an unbelieving Russian who was working in the USA. I opened it to Ezkiel 38 and asked him to rerad it and tell me in English what it said. Hehad had no training whatsoever in Bible prophecy, but he read it to me. He, of course, read Gog and Magog as we would expect, but then, without a moment's hesitation he read Rosh as Russia, Meshech as Moscow, and Tubal as Toblisk. I then asked him if it really said Russia, and he answered, "no, not exactly, but that's what it means." He then explained that Rosh, which Ezekiel says, meant the people of Russia, while Rosha meant the country.

So there can be no reasonable doubt that Ezekiel 38 and 39 refer to Russia. An earlier post on this thread identified them as the ancient enemies of Israel. This is entirely unfounded. Magog, or Russia, was definately NOT one of the enemies of ancient Israel. No contest between these two nations is recorded anywhere in the Bible or in any profane history.

As to the timing of this attack, please notice Ezekiel 39:22. "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward." This statement sets the date of this attack as between the seven year tribulation (for the house of Israel will definately NOT know He is the Lord at that time) and the thousand years (for the house of Israel Will know He is the Lord at that time.

See also verse 7 of that same chapter. ""So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name anymore: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the holy one in Israel." When the antichrist sits on the throne of God, showinghimself that he is God, it will be the worst profaning of God's holy name at any time in history except when the Lord Jesus was crucified. So this has to happen after this time, for God will not let them profane His holy name any more after it happens.

Si it should be plain to all who understand the seven year's tribulation period, that the Gog-Magog attack must come after the seven years and before the thousand year millenneium.

Revelation clearly states that Gog will attack after the thousand years is over, but these scriptures clearly show that he will attack at the end of the seven year tribulation. Sso the only reasonable conclusion is that he will attack twice. Once before the thousand years and once again afterwards

Biblewriter
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nilloc
Upvote 0

ross3421

Senior Member
Aug 1, 2005
783
8
60
✟8,473.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Biblewriter said:
Revelation clearly states that Gog will attack after the thousand years is over, but these scriptures clearly show that he will attack at the end of the seven year tribulation. Sso the only reasonable conclusion is that he will attack twice. Once before the thousand years and once again afterwards

Biblewriter

Biblewriter

Your above statement should give you an uneasy feeling.......... You know that it is questionable for the attack to happen twice. Your however are correct that Gog does attack PRIOR to the return of Christ.

Eze 38:16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Now it is very obvious reading Ezekiel that Gog will be utterly destroyed in the last days never to return. So how could Gog once again come up upon Jerusalem ??? The answer is that they can't and won't !

Thus this understanding that Gog will not return puts question into the literal 1000 reign of Christ. Study Revelation chapter 20 and you will notice the same of all the events occurring from verses 1-10. Ask yourself does is the dragon cast into the pit twice, released twice ect.....

You will be on your way to understand that the 1000 year teaching is false.

Now let's look into the reference of Gog and Magog in chapter 20.

Re 20:8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.Re 20:9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

We see that those of Gog amd Magog which are gathered to battle COME UP FROM THE BREADTH OF THE EARTH. They come up from below the earth, these inhabinant are demonic indwelled. This aligns with the 6th vial and again will they be gathered unto battle twice, No.

Re 16:12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.Re 16:13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.Re 16:14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Oh, and by the way the fire which comes down from heaven and devours them is the return of Christ.

In Christ, Mark.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
ross3421 said:
Now it is very obvious reading Ezekiel that Gog will be utterly destroyed in the last days never to return. So how could Gog once again come up upon Jerusalem ??? The answer is that they can't and won't !

Where and how is this clear. I have studied this passage for years and have never noticed the slightest hint that Gog will never return.

Biblewriter
 
Upvote 0

Rafael

Only time enough for love
Jul 25, 2002
2,570
319
72
Midwest
Visit site
✟6,445.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hidden Manna said:
I see your point, however the tribulation did occur between AD 66 to 70. the 1000 years symbloiclly occured between the cross and the destruction of the jewish state in AD 70.

Gog and Magog
The second deceiving is after the 1000 years has expired. 1. Wars and rumors of war, the antichrist, and a falling away were signs of the first deception, maybe it will be the signs of the second. 2. Revelation 20:9 speaks to the last deception and the last of all battles. They the spirits( living have bodies) surround the camp of the saints and fire comes down from heaven and destroys them all. One of the difficulties in interpreting Rev. 20 is that as John was explaining things which must shortly come to pass like the binding of Satan.


There really is not two deceptions here. It is all the first century Jews.

For example the identity of Gog and Magog, I believe their identity is clear. Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations, which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saint and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them (Revelation 20:7-9)

The fate of Gog and Magog is to burn with fire from God out of heaven. This is the same as the fate of ‘Babylon’ and the ‘Mother of Harlots.’ We read in Revelation 17&18...And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her (Revelation 18:8).

A clue, given us by God is showing Gog and Magog’s numbers to be as the sand of the sea. It was God’s covenant promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. No other people received that promise. The Lord does not want us to leave our common sense behind when we read Revelation.

Another very important consideration is this: Gog and Magog were enemies of God. In chapter 11 God calls Jerusalem spiritually as Sodom and Egypt. The unbelieving Jews have become like their ancient enemies. In Ezekiel 38 and 39 the prophet speaks about Gog and Magog coming against the people of God. Ezekiel also receives a word that the Lord will destroy the multitudes of Gog and Magog with fire.

Have you ever wondered why God used the names of Israel’s former enemies when referring to the Christ rejecting Jews? The answer is really simple. Israel’s enemies, throughout the Bible, warred, and plotted and attacked the people of God.

By God calling fleshly Israel the same names as her former enemies the Lord showing everyone that Israel is now the enemy of the true people of God. Fleshly Israel fought against Jesus Christ and His followers the church (Acts 4-1-27). Like

Israel’s ancient enemies they could not succeed. And fire
came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Don't think that God does not save the two houses of Israel and their companions or grafted in wild branches. The Sons of the Living God are also said to number the like the sands of the sea. (Hosea 1:9-11) He promised to restore and preserve for Himself a remnant of both houses when the ancient glory of Israel will revived as God has promised (Is.65:9; Eze.29:21). It was Ephraim, the head of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" that received the promise to be "loammi", as though they were not God's people, but then become "Sons of the Living God" with numbers like the stars in the sky and the sand of the seas while dwelling in the Gentile nations God sifted them into, but not one grain will be lost (Amos 9:9). Tying that number to Ephraim and His descendants to make them Gog and MAgog goes to far. I submit that the number means a large number and cannot goe against the balance of scripture that speaks of the two houses of Israel being reunited under One King in the physical land of Israel. The word of truth cannot be rightly divided without taking in the whole balance of scripture concerning any one subject.
God promises to crush those who come against Israel, Judah and Jerusalem. Zechariah give a great picture of Jerusalem, "the beloved city", spoken of in Rev. 20:9, as the time will come when all nations have to go their and observe the feast of tabernacles (God with us) or they receive no rain. The time of grace is over with, and the millinniel period is where the Lord rules with the "rod of Iron" as absolute King over all the earth (Zech.14:9; Rev.12:5; 19:15). Grace was for the Saints who now rule with the Lord as judges over the world. The law will one again come forth from Zion (Isaiah 2:2,3).

Zeh. 1:18 ¶ Then I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, there were four horns.
19 So I said to the angel who was speaking with me, "What are these?" And he answered me, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem."

Zech.2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me.

2:8 (NLT) "After a period of glory, the LORD Almighty sent me against the nations who oppressed you. For he said, ‘Anyone who harms you harms my most precious possession.
9 I will raise my fist to crush them, and their own slaves will plunder them.’ Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me."


Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.

Isa.2:2,3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


I am inclined to agree with those that speak of Gog and Magog's attack coming after the 1000 years of peace where the saints rule with Jesus in the restored land of Israel which will stretch from the Nile river to the Euphrates in Iraq (Gen. 15:18). It seems mighty clear in Revelations 20 after the devil is once again unchained, the enemies of God will once again be inspired to rebel against God before the final seperation of the nations people takes place. I can't see anywhere in history where a tribulation like that described in the Bible has ever happened or a period of time like millinnium has taken place where the lamb lies with the lion and people grab the him of a Jew's garment Like in Zechariah's prophecy:

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to
pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will
go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Is.65:8 ¶ "But I will not destroy them all," says the LORD. "For just as good grapes are found among a cluster of bad ones (and someone will say, ‘Don’t throw them all away—there are some good grapes there!’), so I will not destroy all Israel. For I still have true servants there.
9 I will preserve a remnant of the people of Israel and of Judah to possess my land. Those I choose will inherit it and serve me there.
10 For my people who have searched for me, the plain of Sharon will again be filled with flocks, and the valley of Achor will be a place to pasture herds.
11 ¶ "But because the rest of you have forsaken the LORD and his Temple and worship the gods of Fate and Destiny,
12 I will ‘destine’ you to the sword. All of you will bow before the executioner, for when I called, you did not answer. When I spoke, you did not listen. You deliberately sinned—before my very eyes—and chose to do what you know I despise."
13 Therefore, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "You will starve, but my servants will eat. You will be thirsty, but they will drink. You will be sad and ashamed, but they will rejoice.
14 You will cry in sorrow and despair, while my servants sing for joy.
15 Your name will be a curse word among my people, for the Sovereign LORD will destroy you and call his true servants by another name.
16 All who invoke a blessing or take an oath will do so by the God of truth. For I will put aside my anger and forget the evil of earlier days.

Eze 29:21 "And the day will come when I will cause the ancient glory of Israel to revive, and then at last your words will be respected. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

Eze 20:41 "As a soothing aroma I will accept you when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I will prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.

Ezek 36:24-28 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your Elohim.

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
2:1 ¶ In that day you will call your brothers Ammi—‘My people.’ And you will call your sisters Ruhamah—‘The ones I love.’

Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard
shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the
fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and
the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the
lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on
the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the
cockatrice’ den.
 
Upvote 0

Hidden Manna

Veteran
Feb 21, 2004
1,206
11
68
✟8,918.00
Faith
Christian
Rafael said:
Don't think that God does not save the two houses of Israel and their companions or grafted in wild branches. The Sons of the Living God are also said to number the like the sands of the sea. (Hosea 1:9-11) He promised to restore and preserve for Himself a remnant of both houses when the ancient glory of Israel will revived as God has promised (Is.65:9; Eze.29:21). It was Ephraim, the head of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" that received the promise to be "loammi", as though they were not God's people, but then become "Sons of the Living God" with numbers like the stars in the sky and the sand of the seas while dwelling in the Gentile nations God sifted them into, but not one grain will be lost (Amos 9:9). Tying that number to Ephraim and His descendants to make them Gog and MAgog goes to far. I submit that the number means a large number and cannot goe against the balance of scripture that speaks of the two houses of Israel being reunited under One King in the physical land of Israel. The word of truth cannot be rightly divided without taking in the whole balance of scripture concerning any one subject.
God promises to crush those who come against Israel, Judah and Jerusalem. Zechariah give a great picture of Jerusalem, "the beloved city", spoken of in Rev. 20:9, as the time will come when all nations have to go their and observe the feast of tabernacles (God with us) or they receive no rain. The time of grace is over with, and the millinniel period is where the Lord rules with the "rod of Iron" as absolute King over all the earth (Zech.14:9; Rev.12:5; 19:15). Grace was for the Saints who now rule with the Lord as judges over the world. The law will one again come forth from Zion (Isaiah 2:2,3).


Hi Rafael,

I believe that you are getting the New Jerusalem mixed up with the natural or old Jerusalem. What you said refers to the new jerusalem in which God has made both believing in Christ Jew and Gentile one in Christ.

Israel Reborn or Judged

I never thought of the Jews in our day fulfilling any Bible prophecy because they are not the biblical Jews or Israel that is in the Bible.

1948 Israel?
The reestablishment of the state of Israel in 1948 is considered to be the most important sign that the second coming is near. One of the great problems with this dispensational view is that there is no rebirth of Israel or rebuilt temple mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. Nor is the supposed re-gathering of the Jews to their homeland. This is puzzling, because if the rebirth of Israel is the “super sign,” you would think it would be very prominent in prophetic passages such as Matt. 24 and Revelation. It simply is not.

There is only one passage that dispensationalists point to that they say speaks of the rebirth of Israel and that is in Matt. 24.
“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.”

The thought is that the fig tree represents a re-born Israel. However, other passages in the New Testament cast doubt upon this interpretation. In Matthew 24’s parallel passage in Luke 21 Jesus says to “look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near (Luke 21:29-30).” Are we talking about the rebirth of many nations here? It is far more logical to assume that Jesus was merely using the fig tree(s) as an object lesson.

Moreover, other passages that could associate Israel with a fig tree always speak of judgment and never of any sort of rebirth.
“Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, ‘Let no fruit grow on you ever again.’ Immediately the fig tree withered away.

And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, ‘How did the fig tree wither away so soon?’

So Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.’” Matthew 21:18-21

Most scholars believe this particular fig tree did represent Old Covenant Israel. It was about to pass away and never bear fruit again. Jesus was not just mad because he wanted some figs and could not get any. Moreover, never again means never again.

Furthermore, when Jesus said that if they had faith and did not doubt, they would not only do what was done to the fig tree, but they could also say to this mountain “Be removed and be cast into the sea,” and it would be done. Was Jesus given them permission to tear up actual mountains and cast them into the sea? No, He was talking about something spiritual.

For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:18-24

If they had faith, they would see the Old Covenant which was represented by Mount Sinai torn up and cast away. And indeed it was.

Let us consider another parable with a fig tree.

“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’” (Luke 9:3-9)

Obviously, the fig tree is not a nation about to be reborn, but one that was about to be judged, and indeed it was. It is interesting that Jesus probably told this parable in the third year of His ministry.
Next we must look at the covenantal implications of the rebirth of Israel. God’s promise to give the Jews the land of Israel as their inheritance was an Old Covenant promise. This begs the question is the Old Covenant still in effect? If we say it passed away with the coming of the New Covenant, then so did the promise of the land.

However, if we say that it is still in effect for the Jews, we still run into problems. In the scriptures the promise that the Jews would hold the land of Israel was conditional. Deuteronomy 28 tells us “If you are not careful to do all the words of this law … you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it, And the LORD will scatter you among all the peoples, from one end of the earth to the other. …” If the people who now live in Israel are not keeping the Law of Moses (and they can’t be. The Mosaic Law ceased to be observed in AD. 70, and it has never been observed in full since.), how can we say that God has given them the land back?

Even if you say that God’s covenant with Abraham to give the Jews the physical land of Israel is still in effect, look what the Bible says are God’s conditions for remembering His promise.

“But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt— then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land, Leviticus 26:40-42.

Did the Jews meet this condition before the 1948 re-gathering? No! This dispensational view essentially makes God a liar!
 
Upvote 0

ikester

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2003
551
0
✟692.00
Faith
Christian
notice..in Ezekiel... 1/6th of the invading army is spared....the mountains will be thrown down....the ravenous birds devour the dead....certain nations attack (most are Islamic today)...

notice in Rev....the mountains are thrown down....ravenous birds devour the dead....this is at the time of Armeggeddon......not after the millenium....
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Hidden Manna said:
One of the great problems with this dispensational view is that there is no rebirth of Israel or rebuilt temple mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. Nor is the supposed re-gathering of the Jews to their homeland.

You have missed the central essence of the passages you are discussing.

In Matthew 24 we read:
"15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened."

Now it is perfecxtly clear that there has never, before our time, been a threat of a war so terrible that it would destroy not only all human life, but all flesh. Even when I was young, such a war was unthinkable. But today, the threat of nuclear annihilation is common knowledge. This can not be talking about anything other than an end time event. But it specifically warns "them which be in Judaea " to flee.

Now since the time of the dispora, cica 70 A.D., there has never been a Judaea from which to flee. Never, that is, until 1948.

But your error is far deeper that this. You seem to desire to limit the prophecies under discussion to New Testament prophecies. The Old Testament is just as much the word of God as the New. Every prophecy in either the Old or the New Testaments will most assurdly be fulfilled in its entirety. You cannot just dismiss prophecies because they are in the Old Testament. It is you who make God a liar, by claiming that He will not keep the promises He made to the people of Israel, Ephraim, Judah, and the land of Israel itself. Yes, there is a significant amount of Old Testament prophecy about and even addressed to a piece of real estate. The ancient land of Israel.

Biblewriter
 
Upvote 0

ShirleyFord

Active Member
Jul 6, 2005
71
0
83
✟183.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Many teach today that Gog and Magog will come against God's people at Armegeddon during the Great Tribulation. The Scriptures I believe prove that the events of Satan's little season and the Great Tribulation are the same.

Revelations 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelations 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelations 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Revelations 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelations 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelations 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelations 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelations 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Revelations 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

It appears then that the period called today 'the great tribulation' is actually the period of Satan's little season (Rev. 20:7-9).

Shirley
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
144,666
17,342
USA/Belize
✟1,738,795.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
G

Galilean

Guest
The modern state of Israeli does not forfill the prophecies about Israel, or the marks of Israel, and I honestly do not see how it is going to at any point in the future.
From what I can see, revelations and other biblical scripture is being twisted around to try and suit some kind of zionist extremism, and anti-islamic/arab sentiment, and also, it seems, anti-russian.
 
Upvote 0

ikester

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2003
551
0
✟692.00
Faith
Christian
Galilean said:
The modern state of Israeli does not forfill the prophecies about Israel, or the marks of Israel, and I honestly do not see how it is going to at any point in the future.
From what I can see, revelations and other biblical scripture is being twisted around to try and suit some kind of zionist extremism, and anti-islamic/arab sentiment, and also, it seems, anti-russian.

one thing for sure if you believe scripture literally.......the whole world will be anti-jew......
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.