Rebellion

parousia70 · Feb 13, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Christ defeated Satan in that those who accept Him will have passed from death into life (And in the future, when all enimies are under his feet, Satan will be truly destroyed).

Hya Free,
Could you Define "truly destroyed"?

Do you mean "extinguished", or perhaps, "obliterated"?

If so, I see no evidence of that ever happening.
In fact, I see the opposite, that Satan suffers for eternity, conscious and intact.

Rev. 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, where do you get the notion that Satan is ever "destroyed"?

You rightly cite that Satan is today entirely defeated for those "in Christ", but, since unbelievers will never share in Christ's victory over him, I'm unclear as to what further defeat you are proposing?

It would appear that you are suggesting that one day Satan will be unable to deceive unbelievers.

If so, where is that taught in scripture? :scratch:

Also, where is it taught that while in the pit, Satan is unable to decieve individual unbelievers?

I only see that entire nations are prevented from being deceived while he is in the pit.

Can you produce even one nation on earth today who's entire population is being deceived by Satan?

Atkin · Feb 13, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Scripture, Atkin? All you are doing is using your own reasoning. And at this point, you are arguing with scripture including all that I gave.

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.1Pe 5:9 But resist him, firm in {your} faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

1Th 2:18 For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and {yet} Satan hindered us.

These three passages are written a number of years after the death and resurrection of Christ.

What event occurred that marks the sealing of Satan in the pit? It had to occur after 60 - 64 AD - the approximate time that Ephesians was written.

You would agree with me that God never promised that He would make the binding of Satan an event that would be witnessed by humans.

No, for such explosive events are not witnessed by humans who are incapable of witnessing such a Godly action. So, since you know full well that the human race was never meant to witness the action God took
by instructing His powerful angel to bind the invisible Satan, you now know that the time span you set of post 60-64AD would tell you when Satan, the invisible one, was bound.

We can witness earthly events that could symbolise such an invisble event.

So, would it be fair to ask such a question from God's word, knowing that God
has not deemed it possible for humans to see such an event?

Kindly read what Jesus said to Peter. Yes, Satan was free then, BUT JESUS
made a huge statement on how the human being, even on his own, and without being a very bad person [Peter meant well even in his confusion]
could create his own opposition to God even without the direct command of Satan. Peter was a strong believer and Satan was not commanding Peter at that time.

Linda8 · Feb 13, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
I'm sorry, but your post does not make sense to me at all. And i believe it is off the current discussion.

The number of the beast in Rev. 13 is 666 - and it is the 'the number of a man."

By the way - do YOU believe or not believe that Satan has any influence on people in the world today?

Hello,

The number of the Beast is the number of a man. That does not make the Beast a man. You need to look at the Beast itself, with very close scrutiny of its description and justify why 7 heads and 10 horns are used with no deviation from what the Angel meant by 7 heads, 10 horns, leopard, lion, bear and all.

Where in the Bible has a Beast of prophecy been a human? Even the heads are royal/emperor/king types that go through changes over time.

Of course there are Kings from time to time heading affairs BUT THEIR ENTIRE
armies, peoples and all form part of the Beast.

We had the earth kingdom Beasts in the past, that is Kingdoms versus kingdoms. Now the situation has become deadlier for it is a planetary beast of deviant humans opposing God himself. If even the 4 th beast that was terribly strong and devoured earth and that was smaller than the current world beast was not represented by a single human but by huge armies of Centurions etc, how much more the Beast of the Planet today.

My question is based on the clear unchanging scriptural definition of Beasts of prophecy. The largest a human can be, is to be a head, even then, the royalty/royal family/government or its equivalent, forms the head.
No body is going to be isolated as the bad guy. The entire Beast will burn.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies

A human being has a mouth already. No need for any emphasis that.
However, the entire system is not a huge human and the symbol itself tells you that it was given the means of spreading its doctrine and that was achieved by its human priests, leaders, soldiers, etc.

FreeinChrist · Feb 13, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
I was wondering - I can think of two right off hand. How many "names" and descriptions are in the Word that describe his (the devils') job on earth?

the Accuser of the brethren - Shoving guilt in our face to cause us to NOT BELIEVE the forgiveness that we had already recieved.

the Tempter - Those things that just "pop" into your mind - I REBUKE YOU SATAN!

...I bet there is a long chain of these types of things. The evidence of his existance outside the realm of our day-to-day sinly nature stems from this.

I'd add Liar - and he deceives with clever lies.

I believe the sole purpose of the devil is to Chasten Gods people into alignment with Him. He is the angel of death - and was/is used by God as "a tool". Check out Pauls direct use of this "tool":

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Of course he's not bound - he's crawling all over this fleshly planet.

Yep!

FreeinChrist · Feb 13, 2004

parousia70 said:
Hya Free,
Could you Define "truly destroyed"?

Do you mean "extinguished", or perhaps, "obliterated"?

If so, I see no evidence of that ever happening.
In fact, I see the opposite, that Satan suffers for eternity, conscious and intact.

By "truly destroyed", I meant in the lake of fire for eternity - suffering, with no influence on anything, no ability to carry out his own wishes.

Also, where is it taught that while in the pit, Satan is unable to decieve individual unbelievers?

Can you produce even one nation on earth today who's entire population is being deceived by Satan?

I see no need to "prove" that an entire nation is deceived in order to back up my position that Satan has an influence in the world today.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut {it} and sealed {it} over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Now where in scripture does it say that Satan can only deceive whole nations and not individuals or leaders of a nation? I do not take the phrase "deceive the nations" as, by requirement, including every single individual within the nation. I would say that Satan had a fine time in China...but there are Christians there as a witness to the deceived leaders.

FreeinChrist · Feb 13, 2004

Linda8 said:
Where in the Bible has a Beast of prophecy been a human? Even the heads are royal/emperor/king types that go through changes over time.

Linda - this is off topic, IMHO.

A picture of the future AC (beast) is Antichus Epiphanes. He conquered Jerusalem, persecuted the Jews, declared himself God and put an image in the temple of himself, sacrificed a pig on the alter in the Holy of Holies which stopped the sacrifice until the Maccabee's defeated him and the temple was cleansed.

He was a man.

I believe you are confused by the description of world kingdoms as various beasts and then assuming the beast of Rev. 13 must be a world kingdom.

But as I wrote, I think this is off topic.

FreeinChrist · Feb 13, 2004

Atkin said:
You would agree with me that God never promised that He would make the binding of Satan an event that would be witnessed by humans.

No, for such explosive events are not witnessed by humans who are incapable of witnessing such a Godly action. So, since you know full well that the human race was never meant to witness the action God took
by instructing His powerful angel to bind the invisible Satan, you now know that the time span you set of post 60-64AD would tell you when Satan, the invisible one, was bound.

huh???
One, while it is not specifically mentioned that all the world sees Satan being bound in Rev. 20, it does not mean that it is definitely unwitnessed.

Two, you are implying that the Christians of 34 - 64AD were fighting spiritual forces and those who came later do not?
You make this assumption based on what - a need to justify your position because you can't find scripture to back it up?
The necessary correlation then is that Paul's words are meant for believers then but not now. That sure takes meaning out of scriptures.

Three, you are twisting what I wrote by implying a "set" a time. Truth - I wrote the time period that Ephesian is believed to be written. So you use this ( or abuse this) to make another assumption that that must be when Satan is bound? That is just plain silly, IMHO.

Four, you continue to be unable to use scripture to support your view. You cannot prove that Satan is bound now. You cannot prove that Satan is not influencing people now just as he has since Eden. As scripture supports my position - and I gave a number of them...the burden of proof, my friend, lies on you.

Kindly read what Jesus said to Peter. Yes, Satan was free then, BUT JESUS
made a huge statement on how the human being, even on his own, and without being a very bad person [Peter meant well even in his confusion]
could create his own opposition to God even without the direct command of Satan. Peter was a strong believer and Satan was not commanding Peter at that time.

He wasn't influencing Peter at that time? Check out what Christ says when being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Now look at the scene you refer to between Jesus and Peter:
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Now why do you assume that Satan wasn't trying to tempt Christ using Peter? That Peter wasn't being influenced by Satan? It looks to me that Jesus recognized this!

Now - kindly read what Peter wrote:
1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.1Pe 5:9 But resist him, firm in {your} faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

And Paul:
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

1Th 2:18 For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and {yet} Satan hindered us.

What proof can you offer that we don't need to heed the words of Ephesians anymore?

Atkin · Feb 14, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
huh???
One, while it is not specifically mentioned that all the world sees Satan being bound in Rev. 20, it does not mean that it is definitely unwitnessed.

He wasn't influencing Peter at that time? Check out what Christ says when being tempted by Satan in the wilderness:
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Now look at the scene you refer to between Jesus and Peter:
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Now why do you assume that Satan wasn't trying to tempt Christ using Peter? That Peter wasn't being influenced by Satan? It looks to me that Jesus recognized this!

Now - kindly read what Peter wrote:
1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.1Pe 5:9 But resist him, firm in {your} faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

And Paul:
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

1Th 2:18 For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and {yet} Satan hindered us.

What proof can you offer that we don't need to heed the words of Ephesians anymore?

Please do not take my words the wrong way.
You know very well that Satan is invisible so upon what grounds could you
justify your statement that His binding would be witnessed?
That is false.

There is A BIG difference between the verses regarding Christ's temptation of Satan, and the interaction with Peter.

Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: THE DEVIL SPOKE to Christ and this was one on one BETWEEN CHRIST and Satan straight up confrontation. You cannot deny this.

THE DEVIL , SATAN was not mentioned in the exchange between Christ and Peter. You will not underestimate the difference because the scripture is clear
on Peter being Satanic in his charcter AT THAT INSTANT, by ignorantly being against the way of God.

Could you please help me with this question?

Is it possible for people to be upset with certain potential Bible prophecies, or uncomfortable and perhaps more attracted to the more pleasant possibilities of prophecies?

Linda8 · Feb 14, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Linda - this is off topic, IMHO.

A picture of the future AC (beast) is Antichus Epiphanes. He conquered Jerusalem, persecuted the Jews, declared himself God and put an image in the temple of himself, sacrificed a pig on the alter in the Holy of Holies which stopped the sacrifice until the Maccabee's defeated him and the temple was cleansed.

He was a man.

I believe you are confused by the description of world kingdoms as various beasts and then assuming the beast of Rev. 13 must be a world kingdom.

If you misunderstand what the Beast refers to, it totally shifts your interpretation of the events related to the Rebellion, hence my words are very relevant to the topic.

The one you mentioned was described as one of the Kings of the post Alexander era. That is very normal. In fact, the Bible refers to him as him as a person in one of the verses. Again, that is very normal. However, He is never described as a Beast in ANY verse in Daniel.
You have jumped to that invalid conclusion... evil person means Beast.
State the exact Bible verse that described him as a Beast.
Your description of him as a Beast would then be valid and backed by scripture.

Kindly refer to Daniel and clarify your point.

FreeinChrist · Feb 14, 2004

Atkin said:
Please do not take my words the wrong way.
You know very well that Satan is invisible so upon what grounds could you
justify your statement that His binding would be witnessed?
That is false.

How will it be witnessed? Since it occurs after the Second Coming and Christ is reigning physically on the earth...the result will be made clear, and the effect on the world will be great.
And in regards to 'invisability' - I believe he is a fallen angel. But like angels he can be visable - like Gabriel was to Mary. Don't just write that off.
But you are digressing. What proof do you offer that he is bound and has no effect on the world?

There is A BIG difference between the verses regarding Christ's temptation of Satan, and the interaction with Peter.

The difference is that Christ was with Satan during the temptation in the wilderness - whether Satan was invisable, that is not indicated. Christ knew he was there.

The similairity is that Satan was tempting Christ in both instances. The first is obvious. In the time with Peter, Christ was speaking of what was to happen - His death and resurrection. Satan was tempting Christ by using Peter to say "God forbid {it,} Lord! This shall never happen to You."
Christ knew what was to come...and this passage shows that it was distressful to Him:

Mar 14:33 And He *took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be very distressed and troubled.Mar 14:34 And He *said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch."Mar 14:35 And He went a little beyond {them,} and fell to the ground and {began} to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by.
In both situations in the wilderness and speaking with Peter, Satan was trying to tempt Christ away from His mission.

Sure looks like Christ recognized the influence of Satan.

Could you please help me with this question?

Is it possible for people to be upset with certain potential Bible prophecies, or uncomfortable and perhaps more attracted to the more pleasant possibilities of prophecies?

Why don't you respond to the points I made and answer the questions I have asked?

For one - at what time did Ephesians stop applying to Christians?
Paul wrote it about 60 - 64 A.D. Did it immediately lose its applicability? Don't these verses still hold true now?
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

FreeinChrist · Feb 14, 2004

Linda8 said:
If you misunderstand what the Beast refers to, it totally shifts your interpretation of the events related to the Rebellion, hence my words are very relevant to the topic.

Well I disagree that this is on topic. The OP asks this question:
"I was wondering earlier, after the second coming etc etc. and we're all living in harmony with God, could we still choose to rebel?"
I answered from a premillenial point of view that Satan will be released from the pit after 1000 years and again stir rebellion... which has led into a conversation about whether Satan is now in the pit or not, and if he has any influence on the world today. So the topic of this thread, as I see it, is why would people rebel when life was harmonious with Christ...and what is Satan's role, and where is Satan now. Not the ID and character of the beast.

Do you believe Satan is confined in the pit and has no influence on the world today?

The one you mentioned was described as one of the Kings of the post Alexander era. That is very normal. In fact, the Bible refers to him as him as a person in one of the verses. Again, that is very normal. However, He is never described as a Beast in ANY verse in Daniel.
You have jumped to that invalid conclusion... evil person means Beast.
State the exact Bible verse that described him as a Beast.
Your description of him as a Beast would then be valid and backed by scripture.

Kindly refer to Daniel and clarify your point.

I could spend hours showing why the first beast is a man...and it's relationship with Daniel..and the first seal....but I still believe that this is off topic and is distracting.

Atkin · Feb 15, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Why don't you respond to the points I made and answer the questions I have asked?

For one - at what time did Ephesians stop applying to Christians?
Paul wrote it about 60 - 64 A.D. Did it immediately lose its applicability? Don't these verses still hold true now?

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Hello,

I will address your questions and hope you answer the one I posed regarding
how people love prophecies that may be comfortable.

You asked a question that referred to Ephesians and that verse does not provide any prophetic dates on the matter on which you asked the question.
That verse did not have prophesy as its purpose so it cannot help in that regard.

The question you have asked must be a scripturally valid question REGARDING THE CAPACITY OF THAT VERSE , in order to obtain Bible verses that would give insight regarding your request.

EPHESIANS is NOT PROPHECY about how long Christians would be tempted by Satan, so that verse will not even be a helpful verse to determine the date of Satan's binding. It is obvious that Ephesians was not PROPHESYING in that verse, ABOUT WHEN GOD would seal Satan.

It is a verse encouraging human beings to use God's word and the intellect God has given us to guard against forces of Satan.
IT HOWEVER DOES NOT TELL YOU anything about
how long it would apply to Christians or how long till Satan would be sealed.
Ephesians does not have a date or a duration
of time for which EPHESIANS was valid or applicable to Christians.
If there is no date or duration there, you cannot use Ephesians to say Satan HAS NOT BEEN SEALED---- it has been 1940 years since then and you are not capable of seeing actions that GOD INSTRUCTS REGARDING SATAN's sealing in the pit... irrespective of your words on the 2nd advent.

Since the writer of Ephesians was a human under guidance of the Spirit, the Spirit revealed that much detail and NOTHING MORE regarding dates of applicability. It would be a lie for me or anyone to use Ephesians to invent a date. So please understand that.

The answer to your question is going to come from scriptures in Revelation, Daniel, Zechariah, etc. They will give us the leads to enable the Spirit guide us to identify when Satan was sealed in the pit.

Your question must also address the fact that many sinful humans who lived in the OT and NT times with Satan as scripturally described roaming earth [see Job 1], are going into the lake of fire EVEN THOUGH SATAN
WAS ON EARTH and was deceiving them.
IRRESPECTIVE OF WHO SATAN IS AND WHETHER HE IS SEALED NOW OR NOT, many humans will go into the lake of fire as clearly written in Revelation 20:15

No. Ephesians WAS NOT MEANT TO GIVE DATES of applicability and it is not
the aim or capability of the writer of Ephesians TO TELL US how long
that verse was applicable to Christians.

I need you to respond to this post first, before I proceed.
I do not intend giving an answer that would not be understood, especially
if you were looking for a convenient date from attractive, comfortable man made doctrines.

FreeinChrist · Feb 15, 2004

Well, that was rambling way to avoid answering the question which is this:

For one - at what time did Ephesians stop applying to Christians?
Paul wrote it about 60 - 64 A.D. Did it immediately lose its applicability? Don't these verses still hold true now?
And from my studies of Daniel and Ezekiel, and Zechariah, Joel, etc, I don't see any indication that Satan himself is sealed in a pit, and cannot influence the world. History sure seems to support my view that Satan has been walking the earth. Have you read the history of the Jews since 70 AD?
Occultism is alive and well, unfortunately - and has been for years.

But one of my main points was this: You are creating a difference between Christians of Paul's time and those since, that they do not have to fight against spiritual forces. So the spiritual armor advice isn't really for us. Any advice to 'resist the devil and he will flee' is not for us.
I do not think so.

"Your question must also address the fact that many sinful humans who lived in the OT and NT times with Satan as scripturally described roaming earth [see Job 1], are going into the lake of fire EVEN THOUGH SATAN
WAS ON EARTH and was deceiving them.
IRRESPECTIVE OF WHO SATAN IS AND WHETHER HE IS SEALED NOW OR NOT, many humans will go into the lake of fire as clearly written in Revelation 20:15"

There is no argument from that sinful humans will go into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgement. Frankly, your statement above is not written well. It's hard to figure out your point, or if you have one.

Do you deny that Satan influenced the fall of man?
Yet, who brought sin into the world? Adam and Eve. "The Devil made me do it" has never been a viable excuse to God.

If you read my posts closer, you would see that I wrote that Satan influences by temptation and lies. It is man who falls to temptation, and believes the lies. It is man who denies God. It has always been that way.

And ...all that does not prove that Satan is sealed in a pit today or since 64 AD. or whatever. It does not negate the passage in Ephesians that we fight spiritual forces.

"I need you to respond to this post first, before I proceed.
I do not intend giving an answer that would not be understood, especially
if you were looking for a convenient date from attractive, comfortable man made doctrines."

To be honest, you made no point in this post. And I am not looking for a "convenient date from attractive, comfortable man made doctrines". (Frankly, that is a very odd statement).
I don't believe Satan is sealed in the pit and asked you to show why I should believe he is and why the verses in Ephesians do not apply to us anymore.

I don't think you have an answer. And that is why you are trying to divert my attention from it with this stuff:

"Is it possible for people to be upset with certain potential Bible prophecies, or uncomfortable and perhaps more attracted to the more pleasant possibilities of prophecies?"

The subtle suggestion (which is also snide, IMHO) here is that I don't want to beleive Satan is in the pit and beleive pretrib, premil because I just want an escape and only want to believe pleasant prophecy. WHAT MALARKEY! Why do people have to lower themselves to make personal attacks like that??
Yeah, I think it is just so great that my unsaved loved ones are going to go through hell on earth and will face damnation if they take the mark - what a joyful thought! NOT!

Yep - I live in a fantasy world were I am protected from persecution - NOT!

IN fact,I believe that all Christians, pretrib included, are going to face increasing persecution until the trib period. I know pretribbers who are right now in foreign countries - including the Middle East Islamic countries - facing persecution and death to bring people to Christ. And the focus is Christ.

I don't believe Satan is in the pit because it is not scriptural.

You cannot show me a scriptural reason for believing otherwise and have only used human reasoning and attempts to divert the conversation with the malarkey above.

sigh....well, I am headed to church..

Atkin · Feb 16, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
Well, that was rambling way to avoid answering the question which is this:

For one - at what time did Ephesians stop applying to Christians?
Paul wrote it about 60 - 64 A.D. Did it immediately lose its applicability? Don't these verses still hold true now?
And from my studies of Daniel and Ezekiel, and Zechariah, Joel, etc, I don't see any indication that Satan himself is sealed in a pit, and cannot influence the world. History sure seems to support my view that Satan has been walking the earth. Have you read the history of the Jews since 70 AD?
Occultism is alive and well, unfortunately - and has been for years.

But one of my main points was this: You are creating a difference between Christians of Paul's time and those since, that they do not have to fight against spiritual forces. So the spiritual armor advice isn't really for us. Any advice to 'resist the devil and he will flee' is not for us.
I do not think so.

If you read my posts closer, you would see that I wrote that Satan influences by temptation and lies. It is man who falls to temptation, and believes the lies. It is man who denies God. It has always been that way.

And ...all that does not prove that Satan is sealed in a pit today or since 64 AD. or whatever. It does not negate the passage in Ephesians that we fight spiritual forces.

"I need you to respond to this post first, before I proceed.
I do not intend giving an answer that would not be understood, especially
if you were looking for a convenient date from attractive, comfortable man made doctrines."

To be honest, you made no point in this post. And I am not looking for a "convenient date from attractive, comfortable man made doctrines". (Frankly, that is a very odd statement).
I don't believe Satan is sealed in the pit and asked you to show why I should believe he is and why the verses in Ephesians do not apply to us anymore.

I don't think you have an answer. And that is why you are trying to divert my attention from it with this stuff:

"Is it possible for people to be upset with certain potential Bible prophecies, or uncomfortable and perhaps more attracted to the more pleasant possibilities of prophecies?"

Hello,

I firmly hold onto my view that the human today has inherited many traditions passed down from centuries such that the tendency to hate,lie
steal, murder etc has now been ingrained in people.

Since the sealing of Satan does not end free will [I AM RIGHT ON THIS]

free will humans easily deviate under flesh weaknesses.

Mathew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

DID I NOT TELL YOU THAT THE FLESH is the key source of sin EVEN WITH SATAN SEALED

17 For the flesh

lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If you keep asking for a sign from heaven to prove anything about our Father God's actions on Satan, you could be placing yourself in the position of these people

Matthew[size=+2]16[/size] The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven

--- HUMAN SELF WEAKNESSES SELF CAUSED FLESH SIN due to ignorance
and indiscipline

ROMANS 1: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [DO NOT HIDE BEHIND SATAN HERE--- YOUR OWN FLESH IS THE CAUSE ]

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[size=+2]2[/size] Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things

FreeinChrist · Feb 16, 2004

Atkin said:
Hello,

I firmly hold onto my view that the human today has inherited many traditions passed down from centuries such that the tendency to hate,lie
steal, murder etc has now been ingrained in people.

Cain hated and murdered way back toward the beginning. It's all part of that 'knowledge of good and evil'. It didn't have to be ingrained over the millennia. It is in our nature - our fallen nature.

Since the sealing of Satan does not end free will [I AM RIGHT ON THIS]
free will humans easily deviate under flesh weaknesses.

Mathew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

DID I NOT TELL YOU THAT THE FLESH is the key source of sin EVEN WITH SATAN SEALED

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I never denied that human flesh was weak. In fact I pointed out that Satan influenced by lies and temptation, but it is man that falls to temptation and rejects God and that it has been that way since the fall of man.

But that human flesh has been weak all along does not prove that Satan has been sealed already.

But I am glad that you are using scripture.

If you keep asking for a sign from heaven to prove anything about our Father God's actions on Satan, you could be placing yourself in the position of these people

I am not asking for a sign from heaven. I am asking if the passage in Ephesians applies to Christians now, and if not - at what point did it stop? Don't Christians now need to arm themselves with spiritual armor against forces of darkness?

I do not believe tha Satan is sealed until after the tribulation and the Second Coming. I believe it is one of the victories of Christ at the Second coming. The AC and false prophet go into the lake of fire and Satan is sealed in a pit. I believe Rev. 19 and 20 back that up.

After the death and resurrection of Christ, both Paul and Peter refer to Satan as intervening in the affairs of man. I'll repost some scripture:

1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.1Pe 5:9 But resist him, firm in {your} faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

1Cr 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

2Cr 2:10 But one whom you forgive anything, I {forgive} also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, {I did it} for your sakes in the presence of Christ,2Cr 2:11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short while--in person, not in spirit--were all the more eager with great desire to see your face.1Th 2:18 For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and {yet} Satan hindered us.

1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

I see no scriptural reason for beleiving that Satan is sealed and is not influencing man now. I see no reason to beleive that Ephesians does not, in it's entirity, apply to Christians today.

parousia70 · Feb 16, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
By "truly destroyed", I meant in the lake of fire for eternity - suffering, with no influence on anything, no ability to carry out his own wishes.

Where does the Bible teach you that from the lake of fire Satan has no influence on anything, even unbelievers?

I see no need to "prove" that an entire nation is deceived in order to back up my position that Satan has an influence in the world today.

Oh, I agree that Satan has influence in the world of unbelievers today, because unbelievers will NEVER be free of Satans influence.

Now where in scripture does it say that Satan can only deceive whole nations and not individuals or leaders of a nation? I do not take the phrase "deceive the nations" as, by requirement, including every single individual within the nation.

So you spiritualize "nations" to mean only certain people within nations?
Based on what?

The fact is, There was a time when Satan deceived entire nations, infact he deceived every nation except one for 1500 years, but he no longer can. he has been stripped of that power to deceive the nations and thus can deceive the nations no more.

FreeinChrist · Feb 16, 2004

parousia70 said:
[/color][/size]

Where does the Bible teach you that from the lake of fire Satan has no influence on anything, even unbelievers?

I needed to come back and edit this as I initally read it to be while Satan is in the pit - which had been the topic under discussion.
In regards to the pit:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

How does he?
And as I believe this occurs after the Second Coming, which is yet to come, and while Jesus is reigning an earthly millenial kingdom...no , I don't see Satan having an influence.

As to the lake of fire:
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one {of them} according to their deeds.Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This hasn't happened yet, either. And I see no scriptural basis for believing Satan has power to influence the nations while in the lake of fire - for the unbelievers are buring with him and all of those in Christ are with Him in heaven.

I know you believe we are already in the new heavens and earth...etc. and that is why we will not agree on this.

Oh, I agree that Satan has influence in the world of unbelievers today, because unbelievers will NEVER be free of Satans influence.

parousia, we are not going to agree on this because have entirely diffent viewpoints of Revelation. You are a consistent (full) preterist. I am premill.
I believe those that go against Jesus at the Second coming will die. Then Satan is bound. And after 1000 years, he is released and is able to influence again - like those that are born during the millenial reign. Edit - again I was thinking you were referring to the pit, not the lake of fire. see my comment above..

And yes, Satan tries to intervene with believers too...I already posted the scripture. Please see my last post.

So you spiritualize "nations" to mean only certain people within nations?
Based on what?

Please don't try to include me into an arguement that you and roadie are having.

I am not spiritualizing 'nations'. Yes, Satan will deceive nations at the end of the 1000 years- is it every single individual ? I don't think so. Once in the lake of fire? No.

The fact is, There was a time when Satan deceived entire nations, infact he deceived every nation except one for 1500 years, but he no longer can. he has been stripped of that power to deceive the nations and thus can deceive the nations no more.

Sorry, but I believe the Second Coming is yet to occur. And I see no basis for your comment above.

Atkin · Feb 21, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
"I was wondering earlier, after the second coming etc etc. and we're all living in harmony with God, could we still choose to rebel?"

I answered from a premillenial point of view that Satan will be released from the pit after 1000 years and again stir rebellion... which has led into a conversation about whether Satan is now in the pit or not, and if he has any influence on the world today. So the topic of this thread, as I see it, is why would people rebel when life was harmonious with Christ...and what is Satan's role, and where is Satan now.

.

quote ...why would people rebel when life was harmonious with Christ...

If the sealing of Satan would cause sin to cease and end human deviation from Christlike behaviour , then upon

what grounds would Satan be able to stir a rebellion, 1000 long years of Christ's rule and holy, peaceful calming effect on humans?

If Satan can get people to disobey EVEN after 1000 years...which is a pretty LONG PERIOD mind you, then it means Satan's sealing does not immediately change humans into obedient, non-FREE WILL angelic incapable of sin humans, because even after 1000 long years OF CHRIST'S GUIDANCE, they still sin by following Satan against Christ

That is from your future Satan sealed event based understanding.

So humans sinning now in no way proves SATAN is not sealed because

even after experiencing an UNHERALDED NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE extremely long 1000 year reign OF PURITY UNDER CHRIST,

millions still follow Satan against Christ when He is released from your future point of view.

The return of Christ is so intense an event and will be felt ALL over earth whether people are in flesh or not hence one wonders how Christ's 1000 years direct presence on earth would be so ineffective that, millions

would follow Satan 1000 years after Christ returns.

So even if Satan were sealed now sin would exist in much the same way that even after his future sealing , MILLIONS STILL FOLLOW Satan even after 1000 long years.

If after 1000 years of pure holiness from Christ, humans would follow evil, then what would be the likelihood that if Satan is sealed NOW, without Christ's direct physical presence on earth, humans would not be sinning now.

Your point is therefore weak.

FreeinChrist · Feb 21, 2004

You aren't even bothering to take my comments in context, Atkin!

Linda was wanting to discuss who or what the beast was. I said it was off topic and tried to explain what I saw the topic of the thread - from the OP itself! And this is my quote from that post:

"Well I disagree that this is on topic. The OP asks this question:
"I was wondering earlier, after the second coming etc etc. and we're all living in harmony with God, could we still choose to rebel?"
I answered from a premillenial point of view that Satan will be released from the pit after 1000 years and again stir rebellion... which has led into a conversation about whether Satan is now in the pit or not, and if he has any influence on the world today. So the topic of this thread, as I see it, is why would people rebel when life was harmonious with Christ...and what is Satan's role, and where is Satan now. Not the ID and character of the beast."

I was delineating the topic of the thread, Atkin.

You seem stuck in thinking that I deny the ability of man to sin without Satan. I never said that.

So now you are trying to use backwards reasoning to support your idea that Satan is sealed in the pit now. I'm referring to this:
So humans sinning now in no way proves SATAN is not sealed because
even after experiencing an UNHERALDED NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE extremely long 1000 year reign OF PURITY UNDER CHRIST,

For what life is like while Satan is sealed in the pit, read Isaiah 11:1-10. and Zechariah 14:16-21.

Atkin · Feb 21, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
You seem stuck in thinking that I deny the ability of man to sin without Satan. I never said that.

So now you are trying to use backwards reasoning to support your idea that Satan is sealed in the pit now. I'm referring to this:
So humans sinning now in no way proves SATAN is not sealed because
even after experiencing an UNHERALDED NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE extremely long 1000 year reign OF PURITY UNDER CHRIST,

For what life is like while Satan is sealed in the pit, read Isaiah 11:1-10. and Zechariah 14:16-21.

Hi FreeinChrist,

Your response was intended to explain how life is like while Satan is sealed
in the pit using those verses you gave. How does one identify verses THAT DESCRIBE sinless LIFE after the lake of fire .. that is, ETERNAL PEACE AND HARMONY after the lake of fire judgement

and differentiate between verses that describe life in the 1000 year interval of life with Satan sealed?

That is, how does the Bible differentiate between WHAT PERIODS IT DESCRIBES as peaceful times for humans since WE HAVE 2 PERIODS in question. One is supposed to be peace for a period, and the other is Peace
after the Lake fof fire.

What makes you assume that the life described in Isaiah 11:1-10. and Zechariah 14:16-21 as taking place in a period BEFORE THE LAKE OF FIRE and not the joyful period after the lake of fire judgement. It is easy to confuse the two periods.

Bear in mind that Peace and No Sin is the description of life
after the lake of fire judgement as well.

2. After 1000 years of Christ's rule, humans born would have no memory of sin, so how could they follow Satan when Sin is out of existence for SO LONG.?
Imagine living from 2AD till 1002 AD under direct rule by Christ will full scrutiny of the Almighty God. How does the blotted out memory of sin survive for 1000 years?

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