Free will - not in scripture

Blackguard_

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None of us will be able to be perfect or love enought to deserve eternal life. That is why we must have forgiveness and grace.

Ok, lets start at sqaure one. How does a sinner/nonbeliever get grace and forgiveness?

Choosing to love your neighbors? How much do you need to love to be saved? Are you a Universalist in disquise as very few people do not love their neighbor to some degree?

And I still fail to see how it is not grace coming by the Law if you have to perform works of the Law to get it, as you yourself admit, loving your neighbor is the summation of the Law, so if grace comes by that, grace comes by the Law.

Even if Man's will is free in everything else, it must be Predestination by which he is saved as performing any sort of action on his part that God responds to with Grace is salvation by works/the Law. There cannot be some action you perform by which you recieve grace if grace is not to be by works.

Gal 5:13-14
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
(from New International Version)

Sounds similar to what Jesus taught doesn't it?

So you're arguing freedom from the Law implies freedom of the will? :scratch:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
 
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elman

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Blackguard_ said:
Ok, lets start at sqaure one. How does a sinner/nonbeliever get grace and forgiveness?

Choosing to love your neighbors? How much do you need to love to be saved? Are you a Universalist in disquise as very few people do not love their neighbor to some degree?

And I still fail to see how it is not grace coming by the Law if you have to perform works of the Law to get it, as you yourself admit, loving your neighbor is the summation of the Law, so if grace comes by that, grace comes by the Law.

Even if Man's will is free in everything else, it must be Predestination by which he is saved as performing any sort of action on his part that God responds to with Grace is salvation by works/the Law. There cannot be some action you perform by which you recieve grace if grace is not to be by works.



So you're arguing freedom from the Law implies freedom of the will? :scratch:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Grace is a free gift from God. I am not a universalist. It appears to me that God will not give grace to everyone, but only to those who love their neighbor and not all love their neighbor. Hitler, for example, I don't think will qualify as loving his neighbor. Grace can be a free gift and still not be given to the people who do not love. This is not saying we can love enough to deserve eternal life. I am saying we cannot love enough to deserve eternal life. Grace is not given to us because we have earned it or deserved it, but predestination in the sense that God has created us without free will does not make any sense. If we have no free will that means we cannot sin because sin is the wrong or unloving choice. It also means we cannot love because love is the loving choice, logically and throughout scripture. I am not arguing freedom from the law. The law is love your neighbor. The only freedom from the law is the grace that save us because we are unable to love our neighbor enough to deserve eternal life. But we are able to love our neighbor as Christ and Paul and John and all of them told us we were commanded to do. Just not perfectly. Predestination of the type that removes free will is also untenable because God did not create anyone for the purpose of torturing them. That is just not God who is love. Paul says in Acts 17 as recorded by Luke that God created us for the purpose of seeking Him. From scriptures like Matt 25:31 and following I get the teaching that seeking God and loving your neighbor is the same thing.
 
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tcampen

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The Calvinists (and others, like those that follow Brother Harold Camping) believe that God's omniscience and omnipotence alone makes free will an illusion - and that who will be saved is 100% an act of God, absolutely determined before the creation of the universe. (They call it determinism.)

I'll give them credit for being logically consistent. However, I err on the side of actually having free will. It just seems to make more sense. However, that requires a God that is something less than omnipotent - which seems to make more sense to me anyway. The concept of omnipotense creates far more problems than it solves. Let it go, and biblical theology makes more sense, too.
 
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BlueRose

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So, Elman... your interpretation of Romans 9? I only copied & pasted a portion below, but the first verses of Romans 9 pertain to this as well.

Romans 9.... 16 ...So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory...

The people Paul "spoke for" in this passage sounds kind of like your reaction to predestination. "But then how can God find fault? Who can resist his will? (since his will is sovereign--whether by showing mercy or by hardening) And alas, Paul replies--"But who are you, o man, to talk back to God?..."

It is all about God showing his mercy...nothing significant on our part.
 
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""

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God gave mankind free will for a reason, and that reason is so that we would CHOOSE to turn to Him.

caution and encouragement to turn to God:

Proverbs 1:23-25
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Isaiah 31:6
Turn ye unto him from whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted

Ezekiel 14:6
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Matthew 18:13 (Jesus words)
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

We like sheep have all gone astray and Jesus is saying that God the Father isn't willing that any of us should perish, but the very notion that we CAN go astray, proves that we have free will.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

If we didn't have free will, there would be nothing to repent for... all would already be forgiven, because it would all have been a part of God's plan, thereby negating any necessity for a Savior in Christ the Lord.

If this were so, there would not be a Christian bible. There would not be Christian churches. There would not be Christians. There would not have been the death of the Son of God.

***But the most important proof that God separates His will from our will, and even from Jesus will, when Jesus came to us in the FLESH, is this:

From here

In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane.

As they approached the garden, the disciples had marked the change that came over their Master. Never before had they seen Him so utterly sad and silent. As He proceeded, this strange sadness deepened; yet they dared not question Him as to the cause. His form swayed as if He were about to fall. Upon reaching the garden, the disciples looked anxiously for His usual place of retirement, that their Master might rest. Every step that He now took was with labored effort. He groaned aloud, as if suffering under the pressure of a terrible burden. Twice His companions supported Him, or He would have fallen to the earth.

Near the entrance to the garden, Jesus left all but three of the disciples, bidding them pray for themselves and for Him. With Peter, James, and John, He entered its secluded recesses. These three disciples were Christ's closest companions. They had beheld His glory on the mount of transfiguration; they had seen Moses and Elijah talking with Him; they had heard the voice from heaven; now in His great struggle, Christ desired their presence near Him. Often they had passed the night with Him in this retreat. On these occasions, after a season of watching and prayer, they would sleep undisturbed at a little distance from their Master, until He awoke them in the morning to go forth anew to labor. But now He desired them to spend the night with Him in prayer. Yet He could not bear that even they should witness the agony He was to endure.

"Tarry ye here," He said, "and watch with Me."

He went a little distance from them--not so far but that they could both see and hear Him--and fell prostrate upon the ground. He felt that by sin He was being separated from His Father. The gulf was so broad, so black, so deep, that His spirit shuddered before it. This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequences of man's sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression.

Christ was now standing in a different attitude from that in which He had ever stood before. His suffering can best be described in the words of the prophet, "Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the Lord of hosts." Zech. 13:7. As the substitute and surety for sinful man, Christ was suffering under divine justice. He saw what justice meant. Hitherto He had been as an intercessor for others; now He longed to have an intercessor for Himself.

As Christ felt His unity with the Father broken up, He feared that in His human nature He would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the powers of darkness. In the wilderness of temptation the destiny of the human race had been at stake. Christ was then conqueror. Now the tempter had come for the last fearful struggle. For this he had been preparing during the three years of Christ's ministry. Everything was at stake with him. If he failed here, his hope of mastery was lost; the kingdoms of the world would finally become Christ's; he himself would be overthrown and cast out. But if Christ could be overcome, the earth would become Satan's kingdom, and the human race would be forever in his power. With the issues of the conflict before Him, Christ's soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal. He would be identified with Satan's kingdom, and would nevermore be one with God.

And what was to be gained by this sacrifice? How hopeless appeared the guilt and ingratitude of men! In its hardest features Satan pressed the situation upon the Redeemer: The people who claim to be above all others in temporal and spiritual advantages have rejected You. They are seeking to destroy You, the foundation, the center and seal of the promises made to them as a peculiar people. One of Your own disciples, who has listened to Your instruction, and has been among the foremost in church activities, will betray You. One of Your most zealous followers will deny You. All will forsake You. Christ's whole being abhorred the thought. That those whom He had undertaken to save, those whom He loved so much, should unite in the plots of Satan, this pierced His soul. The conflict was terrible. Its measure was the guilt of His nation, of His accusers and betrayer, the guilt of a world lying in wickedness. The sins of men weighed heavily upon Christ, and the sense of God's wrath against sin was crushing out His life.

Behold Him contemplating the price to be paid for the human soul. In His agony He clings to the cold ground, as if to prevent Himself from being drawn farther from God. The chilling dew of night falls upon His prostrate form, but He heeds it not. From His pale lips comes the bitter cry, "O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." Yet even now He adds, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt."

All honor and glory forever and ever to you my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Lord Jesus. :bow: :prayer:
 
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stranger

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Ok, lets start at sqaure one. How does a sinner/nonbeliever get grace and forgiveness?

That question doesn't even make sense, one cannot GET grace, grace is UNMERITED forgiveness, one cannot get it , it comes for nothing ... but only when God decuides, we cannot merit it, we cannot get it, we cannot earn it...

Choosing to love your neighbors? How much do you need to love to be saved?

We need to love perfectly before we are acceptable to the spirit that is God ... a task that the human is incapable of ... something which only the spirit of truth can bring about ...
 
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stranger

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God will not give grace to everyone, but only to those who love their neighbor and not all love their neighbor.

Grace is UNMERITED forgiveness , it is the cause of people loving their neighbour, not the other way around ! God CHANGES people to lvingness by means of His truth , it is given, not earned ...

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 
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stranger

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However, I err on the side of actually having free will. It just seems to make more sense.

Perhaps you would tell us what free will is then , if it makes sense to you ?

Are u saying that man is not determinate , our actions are not caused ? ... that we make decisions randomly one way or the other ?
 
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stranger

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the very notion that we CAN go astray, proves that we have free will.

No it doesn't, even the bible disproves that assertion :-

Ex 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh,

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul...

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?


 
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elman

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stranger said:


No it doesn't, even the bible disproves that assertion :-

Ex 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh,

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul...

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?


Whatever the Isa and Ex scripture mean, they do not mean that Saul or Pharoah were forced by God to be evil. They had a choice. In Pharoah's case it says Pharoah hardened his own heart on half of the occasion. The other two scriptures have to do with calamity, not evil choices.
 
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elman

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tcampen said:
The Calvinists (and others, like those that follow Brother Harold Camping) believe that God's omniscience and omnipotence alone makes free will an illusion - and that who will be saved is 100% an act of God, absolutely determined before the creation of the universe. (They call it determinism.)

I'll give them credit for being logically consistent. However, I err on the side of actually having free will. It just seems to make more sense. However, that requires a God that is something less than omnipotent - which seems to make more sense to me anyway. The concept of omnipotense creates far more problems than it solves. Let it go, and biblical theology makes more sense, too.
Omnipotence does not elimanate free will. Being omnipotent means God is also able to delegate power to others. His power is not limited in such a way that He is unable to do that.
 
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elman

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BlueRose said:
So, Elman... your interpretation of Romans 9? I only copied & pasted a portion below, but the first verses of Romans 9 pertain to this as well.

Romans 9.... 16 ...So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory...

The people Paul "spoke for" in this passage sounds kind of like your reaction to predestination. "But then how can God find fault? Who can resist his will? (since his will is sovereign--whether by showing mercy or by hardening) And alas, Paul replies--"But who are you, o man, to talk back to God?..."

It is all about God showing his mercy...nothing significant on our part.
Rom 9 is telling us or reminding us that God is control. It is not saying we do not have free will because Paul clears says elsewhere we do.

Gal 5:1
5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(from New International Version)


Gal 5:13-15

13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
(from New International Version)


Gal 5:25-26
25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
(from New International Version)


Gal 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
(from New International Version)
 
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elman

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stranger said:


That question doesn't even make sense, one cannot GET grace, grace is UNMERITED forgiveness, one cannot get it , it comes for nothing ... but only when God decuides, we cannot merit it, we cannot get it, we cannot earn it...



We need to love perfectly before we are acceptable to the spirit that is God ... a task that the human is incapable of ... something which only the spirit of truth can bring about ...
Then why does so much of scripture encourage us to be loving and to work our our own salvation in fear and tremline. Grace is not earned and is a gift from God. That does not mean God has no choice but give grace to the unloving people in the world. God does have a choice of who He will give grace to and the Bible clearly tells us it is the ones who love. Prov ll:19 and Matt 25:31 and following. Our love is not good enough to earn salvation, that is why it is a gift from God and not earned and that is why our salvation is based on grace and not on works, but we will not be children of God if we do not love--First John Four. How much love is enough? Where is the line? I don't know. That is God's call.
 
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elman

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stranger said:


Grace is UNMERITED forgiveness , it is the cause of people loving their neighbour, not the other way around ! God CHANGES people to lvingness by means of His truth , it is given, not earned ...

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Being loving is a choice. It is not forced on us by God. Read First John Four.
 
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elman

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stranger said:


Perhaps you would tell us what free will is then , if it makes sense to you ?

Are u saying that man is not determinate , our actions are not caused ? ... that we make decisions randomly one way or the other ?
Free will is the ability to love. It is caused by many things and one the things that cause it is for us to chose to do it. Free will does not mean our choices are random and uncaused.
 
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BlueRose

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elman said:
Rom 9 is telling us or reminding us that God is control. It is not saying we do not have free will because Paul clears says elsewhere we do.

Gal 5:1
5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
(from New International Version)

Christ set us "free" from our bondage to slavery. This is not a reference for free will.

Gal 5:13-15

13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
(from New International Version)

Again, this is not saying we were called to "have a free will." It's saying we are called to be free from our sin. And when a person says that we don't have free wills, it doesn't mean they believe God is forcing every decision they make onto them. It's just the fact that WE can NEVER ruin God's plans--things happen just as he wants them to. It is true that we make wrongful decisions to sin. Ultimately, though, each of our lives will line up as God planned.

Gal 5:25-26
25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
(from New International Version)

Gal 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
(from New International Version)

We can choose to be lazy, we can choose to love, we can choose to sin. You just don't understand the actual implication of "free will." It's not an "all or none" situation. We can be free to a degree. I believe the Bible allows for that. But one can also not ignore the implications of God's choosing.

Just try and understand what is meant by "free will." No, God isn't forcing a toddler to pick his nose right at this moment. We're not saying that EVERY decision is altered and done because God is making it happen. However, concerning salvation, Scripture seems to point otherwise. Yes, we are to "choose" and "believe"--but other verses shed light on what's really going on.
 
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elman

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BlueRose said:
Christ set us "free" from our bondage to slavery. This is not a reference for free will.



Again, this is not saying we were called to "have a free will." It's saying we are called to be free from our sin. And when a person says that we don't have free wills, it doesn't mean they believe God is forcing every decision they make onto them. It's just the fact that WE can NEVER ruin God's plans--things happen just as he wants them to. It is true that we make wrongful decisions to sin. Ultimately, though, each of our lives will line up as God planned.



We can choose to be lazy, we can choose to love, we can choose to sin. You just don't understand the actual implication of "free will." It's not an "all or none" situation. We can be free to a degree. I believe the Bible allows for that. But one can also not ignore the implications of God's choosing.

Just try and understand what is meant by "free will." No, God isn't forcing a toddler to pick his nose right at this moment. We're not saying that EVERY decision is altered and done because God is making it happen. However, concerning salvation, Scripture seems to point otherwise. Yes, we are to "choose" and "believe"--but other verses shed light on what's really going on.
I understand how God is going to cause all things to work together for those that love Him and that includes evil being used by God for His purposes but evil is not God's will, not done by God and He does not want us to do evil. Free will is our being able to love God and God gives us that choice and opportunity and I have just quoted a verse from Paul that says that very clearly. We reap what we sow, not what God forces us to sow. It is God's will that all should be saved, but all are not going to be saved. There are going to be some unloving people who will face distruction, because they chose to be unloving, not because God forced them to. Matt 25:31 and following.
 
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BlueRose

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elman said:
It is God's will that all should be saved, but all are not going to be saved.

Actually it is not His will that all should be saved. He wills that all be saved--meaning desires. But it is not his decree.

If it was his will that all be saved, then everyone would be saved.
 
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Actually it is not His will that all should be saved. He wills that all be saved--meaning desires. But it is not his decree.
If it was his will that all be saved, then everyone would be saved.

What does this mean then?

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

It seems to me to say that all men will indeed be saved [but that those who are given to believe first are saved first - and elsewhere the scripture explasins why, so that they can minister as perfect priests to the rest ,as images of the Son , as perfect as Jesus]

This scripture below is equally all inclusive as to who will accept Jesus as Lord, so are you saying that accepting Jesus as true Lord is not enough to be saved? :-

Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 
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