Human ethnic groups...

seebs

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So... If the world is 6000 years old, and *well* into that time, everyone but Noah and his immediate family died...

Where do we get human ethnic groups? We have at least a dozen distinct racial or ethnic groups which appear to have been growing apart for, in many cases, thousands of years. Did they all form within the last three or four thousand years? Essentially, if you start from Noah... you don't have that much time before you have to have populated all the continents, and the racial groups have to be visibly distinct.

How do young-earth creationists explain this?
 

mac_philo

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When humanity built the tower of babel, we were punished for violating the Lord's will. He seperated mankind by language, and of course we can extend this to ethnicity. Yet, our God is a loving God, and despite Babel, he made a Covenant that he would never again destroy the Earth by flood. (Gen 8:20 - 8:22). Later in Genesis 9:8-17 we see proof that the rainbow is a symbol to remind us of this Covenant. The colors of the rainbow symbolize the colors of man.
 
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tericl2

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Originally posted by seebs
So... If the world is 6000 years old, and *well* into that time, everyone but Noah and his immediate family died...

Where do we get human ethnic groups? We have at least a dozen distinct racial or ethnic groups which appear to have been growing apart for, in many cases, thousands of years. Did they all form within the last three or four thousand years? Essentially, if you start from Noah... you don't have that much time before you have to have populated all the continents, and the racial groups have to be visibly distinct.

How do young-earth creationists explain this?


Noah and his family were probably mid-brown, with genes for both dark and light skin, because a medium skin color would seem to be the most generally suitable (dark enough to protect against skin cancer, yet light enough to allow vitamin D production). As all the factors for skin color were present in Adam and Eve, they would most likely have been mid-brown as well, with brown eyes and brown (or black) hair. In fact, most of the world's population today is still mid-brown.

After the flood, for the few centuries until Babel, there was only one language and one culture group. Thus, there were no barriers to marriage within this group. This would tend to keep the skin color of the population away from the extremes. Very dark and very light skin would appear, of course, but people tending in either direction would be free to marry someone lighter or darker than themselves, ensuring that the average color stayed roughly the same.

The same would be true of characteristics other than skin color. Under these sorts of circumstances, distinct differences in appearance will never emerge. To obtain such separate lines, you would need to break a large breeding group into smaller groups and keep them separate, that is, prevent interbreeding between groups. This would be true for animal as well as human populations, as every biologist knows.

copied from Answers
 
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tericl2

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As an example, consider a group of people who moved to a cold region with little sunlight. Here, the dark-skinned members would not be able to produce enough vitamin D, and thus would be less healthy and have fewer children. So, in time, the light-skinned members would predominate. If several different groups went to such an area, and if one group happened to be carrying few genes for lightness, this particular group could, in time, die out. Thus, natural selection acts on the characteristics already present, and does not create new ones.
It is interesting to note that the ancient Neanderthals of Europe, recognized as fully human, show evidence of vitamin D deficiency in that many of their bones were bent. In fact, this, plus a large dose of evolutionary prejudice, caused them to be classified as "ape-men" for a long time. It is thus quite plausible that they were a dark-skinned people who were unfit for the environment into which they moved because of the skin color genes they began with. Notice (again) that this natural selection, as it is called, does not produce skin colors, but only acts on the created capacity for making skin pigment that is already there.


Conversely, fair-skinned people in very sunny regions could easily be affected by skin cancer. Thus, in these regions dark-skinned people would more readily survive and come to predominate.

So we see that the pressure of the environment can (a) affect the balance of genes within this group, and (b) even eliminate entire groups. This is why we see, to a large extent, that the physical characteristics of people tend to match the environment where they live (e.g., Nordic people with pale skin, equatorial people with dark skin).

But this is not always so. The Inuit (Eskimo) have brown skin, yet live where there is not much sun. Presumably they all have a genetic makeup such as MAMAmBmB which would not be able to produce lighter skin. On the other hand, native South Americans living on the equator do not have black skin. These examples confirm that natural selection does not create new information -- if the genetic makeup of a group of people does not allow variation in color toward the desirable, natural selection cannot create such variation.

Pygmies live in a hot area, but rarely experience strong sunshine in their dense jungle environment; yet they have dark skin. Pygmies may be a good example of another factor that has affected the racial history of man: discrimination.

People different from the "norm" (e.g., a very light person in a dark people group), have historically been regarded as abnormal and rejected by the group. Thus, such a person would find it hard to get a marriage partner. This would further tend to eliminate light genes from a dark people, and vise versa. In this way, groups have tended to "purify" themselves.

Also, in some instances, interbreeding within a small group can accentuate a commonly occurring unusual feature that would otherwise be swamped by marriage outside the group. There is a tribe in Africa whose members all have grossly deformed feet as a result of this inbreeding.

copied from Answers


I don't really see where a problem would arise. Just look at the birth rate of today. Now look back at history and see that people used to live longer in those days and they most likely had far more children than each couple has today. The population would have increased exponentially very easily and quickly.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by tericl2

After the flood, for the few centuries until Babel, there was only one language and one culture group. Thus, there were no barriers to marriage within this group. This would tend to keep the skin color of the population away from the extremes. Very dark and very light skin would appear, of course, but people tending in either direction would be free to marry someone lighter or darker than themselves, ensuring that the average color stayed roughly the same.

This is insane, though; this would have distinct racial features (which go a *LOT* deeper than skin color) suddenly showing up all at once in a *couple* thousand years?

At this point, you run into Chinese written history; they were there before the time at which Babel should have fallen.

Seriously: What year (presumably something BC) do you think Babel was?
 
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tericl2

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seebs,

You need to read the whole of what I posted. It explains very clearly how ethnic changes could have easily taken place. Please check out the link I posted also. it has charts and the actual DNA and ethnicity info I think you are looking for.

as for the Chinese writings...I know there are ancient writings that speak in general of what happened at the Tower of Babel, but I am unaware of any writings that can be dated prior to the Tower of Babel happening. Do you have any links to support this? I would be interested in reading them. Thanks

God Bless
 
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The problem with the CA explaination is that Noah and his family couldn't carry enough genetic diversity to explain what we see today, given the 4000 or so years allowed for mutations to accumulate.

CA seems to think that the people of the Tower of Babel story were as genetically diverse (or almost so) as we are today. However, that even more impossible because of the recent population bottleneck.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by tericl2

You need to read the whole of what I posted. It explains very clearly how ethnic changes could have easily taken place. Please check out the link I posted also. it has charts and the actual DNA and ethnicity info I think you are looking for.

I read it. It's bunk. They don't know what skin color is, or how it happens; they're assuming it's a single axis of variance. In fact, no amount of breeding among mixed white/black people will *EVER* get you red or yellow. You need all four groups... and the "mixed" people wouldn't stay mixed for any length of time, so we should have heard about the races.

You won't get the asian eyelid difference in a short period of time; that one goes *WAY* back.


as for the Chinese writings...I know there are ancient writings that speak in general of what happened at the Tower of Babel, but I am unaware of any writings that can be dated prior to the Tower of Babel happening. Do you have any links to support this? I would be interested in reading them. Thanks

God Bless

Well, what year do you think Babel happened in? Obviously, it can't be *THAT* far back; Noah came along many generations after Adam, so at least 2000 years later, so we *can't* be more than 4000 years back for Noah - maybe 4.5k at most - and the world has to have mostly repopulated... and *then* we get Babel.

The Babel thing is "supported" the way Greek myths are "supported"; you see embryonic versions of the story being retold.

The Chinese were a large, vibrant, and distinct culture by 1200BC, when they were writing early forms of what is now Chinese. That's *AWFULLY* early... And keep in mind that Central America was also settled a fairly long time ago; they had writing by 500BC. We have no practical explanation for how they got there unless they did it over a land bridge that probably hasn't existed for a *LONG* time.

The earliest known Summerian writing dates to 3300BC. It thus clearly predates the flood, and indeed, has to have been written during Adam's lifetime... except that it's the wrong language!

I really think human culture, genetic diversity, and language are not adequately understood. If the site you referenced is the best we can find... that's pretty bad. If you'd like, I can ask my friend who's doing molecular biology read it. I bet she'd break out laughing.

BTW, they cheat fairly substantially; they start with "let's assume there's only two genes", and then go on to show how, with just two genes, they could get some of the results they need.

What they can't do is come up with a remotely plausible set of, say, eight people, from whom you could get the dozen or so recognized ethnic groups of the world in under 10,000 years.
 
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amie

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Hi Eric,
I read the link. I study molecular biology and I am not laughing...as a scientist there are a vast array of possibilities to ethnic changes. So many changes that we may never fully understand the complexity of it all. I see that you posted "How ethnic changes COULD have taken place" Not "how ethnic changes took place" so...yes Eric, I would say I can agree with you in part to the "could have" in your statement...
love and blessings
your friend
Amie :hug:
 
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tericl2

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BTW, they cheat fairly substantially; they start with "let's assume there's only two genes", and then go on to show how, with just two genes, they could get some of the results they need.

What they can't do is come up with a remotely plausible set of, say, eight people, from whom you could get the dozen or so recognized ethnic groups of the world in under 10,000 years.

Cheating? Were you ever really looking for answers? Seems like you have your mind made up already, so why couch your opinion by beginning this thread with a question? As if you were actually seeking some type of answer?

As for the two gene deal...the article clearly stated that was for clarity of the example. I think if you will do just a tiny bit of research you will find that many scientific examples of processes start with a very similar statement. Especially when written to be understood by the general layperson. When you factor in an increase in genes it makes the model even more plausible.

I still don't see that you read what I posted even. Much less the whole article at CA.

Noah started at mid-brown with all genes. After Babel, people with different languages went there seperate ways. Now the variance of the gene pool was diminished.

Oh, forget it. I don't feel like posting all this again. The explanation is there in what I have already posted and the accompanying link. Every so-called conflict you have with it was answered in that article.
 
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tericl2

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Originally posted by amie
Thanks for posting that Eric...very insightful...I am going to go check out the link...want to join me seebs?
tell that sweet mistygail hi and i love her, she's got her hands full tonight I heard...
Amie

You are welcome! I will tell Misty hi for you. Yes, she is busy tonight. Got a couple of the neighbor kids staying the night. I am glad I am at work!! :D

God Bless
 
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amie

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:D :D funny Eric, I can't wait until she reads this post :D wow, so she's got 5 at your house...STAY AT WORK AS LONG AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE ;) If I was closer, I'd help her...although at this rate, she is probably feeling like she wants to move in with me to escape ;)
kidding of course...she's the best! Love and blessings and I must go now, I am working a night shift at the hospital...so I will check back tomorrow though, good thread this is...didn't mean to hijack it with random conversation, and eric I will e-mail you some similar articles when i find them, you too seebs, you may be interested...
Amie
 
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tericl2

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Originally posted by amie
:D :D funny Eric, I can't wait until she reads this post :D wow, so she's got 5 at your house...STAY AT WORK AS LONG AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE ;) If I was closer, I'd help her...although at this rate, she is probably feeling like she wants to move in with me to escape ;)
kidding of course...she's the best! Love and blessings and I must go now, I am working a night shift at the hospital...so I will check back tomorrow though, good thread this is...didn't mean to hijack it with random conversation, and eric I will e-mail you some similar articles when i find them, you too seebs, you may be interested...
Amie

Thanks Amie. I would love to read the articles. I am always looking for more knowledge and praying that God will impart the wisdom to understand it.

God Bless
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by tericl2

Cheating? Were you ever really looking for answers? Seems like you have your mind made up already, so why couch your opinion by beginning this thread with a question? As if you were actually seeking some type of answer?

I was asking if anyone had a plausible theory. That site's theory is not "plausible". It's *LAUGHABLE*.


As for the two gene deal...the article clearly stated that was for clarity of the example. I think if you will do just a tiny bit of research you will find that many scientific examples of processes start with a very similar statement. Especially when written to be understood by the general layperson. When you factor in an increase in genes it makes the model even more plausible.

No, not when you have more complicated types of genes. Not all genes are as simple as the ones they describe.


I still don't see that you read what I posted even. Much less the whole article at CA.

I read it. It was what I would have written after my first intro to genetics, if I'd been trying to make that point. The flaws in it are many and varied. To make a long story short, there's no way to have a "stable" population of people of the sort you'd need, if indeed you could even *make* such a population. And yet, everyone was the same and there's no mention of wildly differing appearances, and then there's Babel... and about twenty five years later, we're expected to believe that the entire world, including the parts you can't reach, are populated with wildly different racial groups with substantially different qualities and ten thousand years worth of genetic drift.


Oh, forget it. I don't feel like posting all this again. The explanation is there in what I have already posted and the accompanying link. Every so-called conflict you have with it was answered in that article.

No, it wasn't. They hand-waved, and they are either ignorant or lying, but they didn't come *CLOSE* to addressing the issue. Basically, they invented a straw man and showed that they could *MOSTLY* address that. If the only problems we had were light and dark skins, it would be dimly possible.

What they can't explain is the kind of subtle and gradual differentiation you see among the world's *MANY* ethnic groups, most of which are not simply questions of "light or dark". They don't explain how the Han Chinese came to be a racial group with clear standards of purity in a somewhat *negative* amount of time, according to the chronology.

Hmm. How many of the clean animals did Noah take? Gen 7:2 says 7 male, 7 female. Gen 6:19-20 says 2 of everything. He's supposed to have fed them for 5 months with the food supply in the ark. The ark is only 450'x75'x30'; that's not even enough to hold a breeding pair of every species of insect. Thus... Either new species have evolved in the last 4-5 thousand years, or they didn't really all fit on the ark. You can't even do two of every land mammal in that much space.

We have Noah and his wife, and their six kids, and that's the whole population. Three of those kids are contributing *NOTHING* genetically - they're just using part of Noah's genetic material, and part of his wife's, so at *MOST* we have five people. From these five people, we need a dozen ethnic groups - none of which is a "combination" of others. Asian and American Indian are both simply distinct groups; they aren't "half-black" or any such. The usual Spanish coloring is probably an ethnic group for genetic purposes. Turks, Hindus, Eskimos, two types of Asians, Mongols, Australians, Aztecs... Each of these groups *CANNOT* be reproduced by blending the others.

The arguments presented simply do not take into account even the most basic understanding of genetic traits. If you can find better arguments, I'm willing to look at them, but the conclusion is sufficiently inconsistent as to suggest, once again, that we are dealing with a *MYTH*, not an actual literal story.

Rule 1: The Bible is about morality, and God. Everything else is storytelling.
 
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Hmm...

One of my old college profs is a minor league archaeologist, with the emphasis on alaskan/native american cultures. He's excavated a number of sites in my area (alaska) that date back to 4000 BC or earlier. Which is a good couple thousand years before this whole Tower of Babel thing.
 
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Hmm. How many of the clean animals did Noah take? Gen 7:2 says 7 male, 7 female. Gen 6:19-20 says 2 of everything. He's supposed to have fed them for 5 months with the food supply in the ark. The ark is only 450'x75'x30'; that's not even enough to hold a breeding pair of every species of insect.

This was realized even in Medieval and Renaissance times, when scholars argued that Noah did not take any insects on the ark, but rather than insects had spontaneously generated after the Flood was over. The demonstration in the 17th century that spontaneous generation was impossible was one of the major jolts on the way to serious theories about the history of life on earth.

Vorkosigan
 
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Originally posted by seebs


This is insane, though; this would have distinct racial features (which go a *LOT* deeper than skin color) suddenly showing up all at once in a *couple* thousand years?

Is this a good place to point out the Egyptian mummies had both white and black individuals. This was actually used to support the concept of polygeny, the seperate creation of the races of mankind before the acceptance of evolution in the scientific world.
 
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seebs

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Originally posted by ardipithecus

Is this a good place to point out the Egyptian mummies had both white and black individuals. This was actually used to support the concept of polygeny, the seperate creation of the races of mankind before the acceptance of evolution in the scientific world.

Yow! That narrows the available time for the races to appear by another few hundred to a thousand years.
 
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Is this a good place to point out the Egyptian mummies had both white and black individuals. This was actually used to support the concept of polygeny, the seperate creation of the races of mankind before the acceptance of evolution in the scientific world.

Not by anybody with even a basic knowledge of Egyptian history, it wouldn't be. Of course you're going to find lots of different ethnic groups there, because as one of the biggest, richest and influential empires in the Middle East it received one heck of a lot of immigration, especially after the Middle Kingdom. During the Middle Kingdom,pretty much the whole country was actually taken over by the Hyksos. Whole cities were taken up by immigrants into Egypt (ex. Avaris, which received lots of immigration especially from the area round Palestine), and in addition to this prisoners of war from Egypt's conquests would be used as slaves down the mines.

As well as Hyksos pharaohs, different regions of Egypt also had Nubian leaders, such as Piankhy, and Libyan leaders such as Tefnakht.

In addition, bifurcating all these different groups into 'white and black individuals' is unjustified today, but even more so back then when one considers that the Egyptians saw lots of different sorts of racial characteristics in their neighbouring regions, distinguishing far more between racial characteristics than we would today, as you'll see if you look at any smiting scene on a tomb wall.
 
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