A seldom heard Christian view

tgg

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What Are Moral Values?"
>
> by Rev. Dr. Robin Meyers
> Mayflower Church, Oklahoma City
>
> As some of you know, I am minister of Mayflower Congregational Church
> in Oklahoma City, a church in northwest Oklahoma City, and professor
> of Rhetoric at Oklahoma City University. But you would most likely
> have encountered me on the pages of the Oklahoma Gazette, where I have
> been a columnist for six years, and hold the record for the most
> number of angry letters to the editor.
>
> Tonight, I join ranks of those who are angry, because I have watched
> as the faith I love has been taken over by those who claim to speak
> for Jesus, but whose actions are anything but Christian.
>
> We've heard a lot lately about so-called "moral values" as having
> swung the election to President Bush. Well, I'm a great believer in
> moral values, but we need to have a discussion, all over this country,
> about exactly what constitutes a moral value -- I mean what are we
> talking about? Because we don't get to make them up as we go along,
> especially not if we are people of faith. We have an inherited
> tradition of what is right and wrong, and moral is as moral does. Let
> me give you just a few of the reasons why I take issue with those in
> power who claim moral values are on their side:
>
> When you start a war on false pretenses, and then act as if your
> deceptions are justified because you are doing God's will, and that
> your critics are either unpatriotic or lacking in faith, there are
> some of us who have given our lives to teaching and preaching the
> faith who believe that this is not only not moral, but immoral.
>
> When you live in a country that has established international rules
> for waging a just war, build the United Nations on your own soil to
> enforce them, and then arrogantly break the very rules you set down
> for the rest of the world, you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you claim that Jesus is the Lord of your life, and yet fail to
> acknowledge that your policies ignore his essential teaching, or turn
> them on their head (you know, Sermon on the Mount stuff like that we
> must never return violence for violence and that those who live by the
> sword will die by the sword), you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you act as if the lives of Iraqi civilians are not as important
> as the lives of American soldiers, and refuse to even count them, you
> are doing something immoral.
>
> When you find a way to avoid combat in Vietnam, and then question the
> patriotism of someone who volunteered to fight, and came home a hero,
> you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you ignore the fundamental teachings of the gospel, which says
> that the way the strong treat the weak is the ultimate ethical test,
> by giving tax breaks to the wealthiest among us so the strong will get
> stronger and the weak will get weaker, you are doing something
> immoral.
>
> When you wink at the torture of prisoners, and deprive so-called
> "enemy combatants" of the rules of the Geneva Conventions, which your
> own country helped to establish and insists that other countries
> follow, you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you claim that the world can be divided up into the good guys and
> the evil doers, slice up your own nation into those who are with you,
> or with the terrorists -- and then launch a war which enriches your
> own friends and seizes control of the oil to which we are addicted,
> instead of helping us to kick the habit, you are doing something
> immoral.
>
> When you fail to veto a single spending bill, but ask us to pay for a
> war with no exit strategy and no end in sight, creating an enormous
> deficit that hangs like a great millstone around the necks of our
> children, you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you cause most of the rest of the world to hate a country that
> was once the most loved country in the world, and act like it doesn't
> matter what others think of us, only what God thinks of you, you have
> done something immoral.
>
> When you use hatred of homosexuals as a wedge issue to turn out record
> numbers of evangelical voters, and use the Constitution as a tool of
> discrimination, you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you favor the death penalty, and yet claim to be a follower of
> Jesus, who said an eye for an eye was the old way, not the way of the
> kingdom, you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you dismantle countless environmental laws designed to protect
> the earth which is God's gift to us all, so that the corporations that
> bought you and paid for your favors will make higher profits while our
> children breathe dirty air and live in a toxic world, you have done
> something immoral. The earth belongs to the Lord, not Halliburton.
>
> When you claim that our God is bigger than their God, and that our
> killing is righteous, while theirs is evil, we have begun to resemble
> the enemy we claim to be fighting, and that is immoral. We have met
> the enemy, and the enemy is us.
>
> When you tell people that you intend to run and govern as a
> "compassionate conservative," using the word which is the essence of
> all religious faith -- compassion, and then show no compassion for
> anyone who disagrees with you, and no patience with those who cry to
> you for help, you are doing something immoral.
>
> When you talk about Jesus constantly, who was a healer of the sick,
> but do nothing to make sure that anyone who is sick can go to see a
> doctor, even if she doesn't have a penny in her pocket, you are doing
> something immoral.
>
> When you put judges on the bench who are racist, and will set women
> back a hundred years, and when you surround yourself with preachers
> who say gays ought to be killed, you are doing something immoral.
>
> I'm tired of people thinking that because I'm a Christian, I must be a
> supporter of President Bush, or that because I favor civil rights and
> gay rights I must not be a person of faith. I'm tired of people saying
> that I can't support the troops but oppose the war.
>
> I heard that when I was your age, when the Vietnam war was raging. We
> knew that that war was wrong, and you know that this war is wrong --
> the only question is how many people are going to die before these
> make-believe Christians are removed from power?
>
> This country is bankrupt. The war is morally bankrupt. The claim of
> this administration to be Christian is bankrupt. And the only people
> who can turn things around are people like you--young people who are
> just beginning to wake up t owhatishappeningtothem.It'syou­r country
> to
> take back. It's your faith to take back. It's your future to take back.
>
>
> Don't be afraid to speak out. Don't back down when your friends begin
> to tell you that the cause is righteous and that the flag should be
> wrapped around the cross, while the rest of us keep our mouths shut.
> Real Christians take chances for peace. So do real Jews, and real
> Muslims, and real Hindus, and real Buddhists--so do all the faith
> traditions of the world at their heart believe one thing: life is
> precious. Every human being is precious. Arrogance is the opposite of
> faith. Greed is the opposite of charity. And believing that one has
> never made a mistake is the mark of a deluded man, not a man of faith.
> And war -- war is the greatest failure of the human race -- and thus
> the greatest failure of faith.
>
> There's an old rock and roll song, whose lyrics say it all: War, what
> is it good for? absolutely nothing. And what is the dream of the
> prophets? That we should study war no more, that we should beat our
> swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks. Who would
> Jesus bomb, indeed?
>
> How many wars does it take to know that too many people have died?
> What if they gave a war and nobody came? Maybe one day we will find
> out.
>
> Time to march again my friends. Time to commit acts of civil
> disobedience, time to sing, and to pray, and refuse to participate in
> the madness.
:clap: :preach:
 

MOTH

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Agreed. Unless you are in possession of all the facts, as our leaders must be, the writer of the above is just voicing his own opinion (and coming from a limited perspective) It's easy for one like him. He hasn't got the wellbeing of a whole nation, or the world's safety for that matter, to consider. How about some of us Christians at least consider that God put our leaders in charge and ponder the thought that it just might be God's decision for Bush, Blair and Howard to be in the positions they are in. (and before any of you dump on me, I believe the Bible says something about honouring your Government, because God has put them there) That doesn't mean we can't disagree, but this anti-American, anti-West campaign/propaganda is making me real mad! :mad: We have terrorists on our doorstep, not because of Iraq, (the trouble started before that, OK?) but it seems to be because of who we are and the way we live and their desire to create an Islamic state/country/world. They keep issuing threats - and acting on them. Tell me, if one of us did to them what they are doing to us, would any of their countries tolerate us?
 
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inquisitor_11

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How about some of us Christians at least consider that God put our leaders in charge and ponder the thought that it just might be God's decision for Bush, Blair and Howard to be in the positions they are in

And by inference Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein and Hitler?

Tell me, if one of us did to them what they are doing to us, would any of their countries tolerate us?

Considering that the current spate of Islamic Fundamentalism is primarily reactionary i.e. a response to negative social and political conditions, many of which are at most only a few degrees of seperation from us in the west. Islamic fundamentalism is, in many respects, one articulation of people no longer tolerating what "we" have been, and are, doing to "them".
 
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MOTH

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Inquisitor 11, You predictably cite despots like Pol pot, Hitler and Saddam as examples, conveniently forgetting these leaders were not of a democracy like the US, UK and Aus. Hardly to have been appointed by God, but there because God allowed it, for reasons we cannot comprehend.
Also predictably, your excuses for the bloodletting against innocents under the guise of social/religious equality, increasingly expressed by the social engineers in our society (because they can, incidentally) would be impossible under an totalitarian Islamic state, presided over by an Ayottolah (sp?) smacks of a tolerance of oppression for the women and the powerless in our midst. Your seemingly misguided desire to tolerate an all too obvious trojan horse containing a real dinkum enemy without consideration to the security of our country, while becoming an increasingly popular view, is, nevertheless somewhat worrying, to say the least. Islam is an enemy of our God, our tenets, paradoxically while sometimes seeming to agree, is basically poised and arraigned against Christianity. For us to tolerate same, makes us entertainers of an ideology opposed to God. In essence we become fence sitters. I think I'll make a stand for God.
 
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Injured Soldier

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The Bad Templar said:
Why is it that you so commonly and mistakenly equate US New Christian Right positions/ US Fundamentalist Evangelicalism as being synonymous with what is Christian?

I agree with you Templar, but I think it is a mistake to use US Religious Right and Fundamentalist Evangelicalism synonymously.

MOTH said:
Inquisitor 11, You predictably cite despots like Pol pot, Hitler and Saddam as examples, conveniently forgetting these leaders were not of a democracy like the US, UK and Aus. Hardly to have been appointed by God, but there because God allowed it, for reasons we cannot comprehend.

Democracy has nothing to do with it. God doesn't get a vote. When the verse where Paul talks about governors and authorities weilding the sword to punish evil was written, there was no democracy. It doesn't have anything to do with democracy.

Tell me, if one of us did to them what they are doing to us, would any of their countries tolerate us?

Probably not, but if one of our own does it to us, we love him for it. Ned Kelly was a hairsbreath away from pulling off Australia's largest terrorist attack in the 19th century, and he is an Australian icon. And I'm with inquisitor, it is a reaction. The West has contributed to more deaths in the Middle East that Islamic fundamentalism has caused in the West in the last 50 years. The reason why there are any sympathisers for the terrorists at all is the human hatred of injustice.

Islam is an enemy of our God, our tenets, paradoxically while sometimes seeming to agree, is basically poised and arraigned against Christianity.

Funny, I thought all non-Christians were an enemy of God. It is positively medieval to kill them for that. They are human too, and they need the love of Jesus, not the hatred of Christians. But God sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins and rise again, so we can be friends, not enemies, of God. :)
 
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MOTH

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Who said anything about killing anyone for their beliefs, Injured? I certainly didn't! Non Christians aren't enemies of God! Why did you say that? Islam as a religion is, not the individual. Please don't make assumptions! As for drawing Ned Kelly as an example, show us where he almost became Australia's biggest terrorist. This dragging up the past and making the west the big, bad, boogie man is not doing anything to heal the rift!. I have yet to see even one apologist for Islam and their past sins, let alone a 'movement' among the people. The concentration of apologists seems to be from the Western nations. Not one report of a similar movement do I hear from the Eastern nations. Why is that, I wonder.
 
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inquisitor_11

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Democracy has nothing to do with it. God doesn't get a vote. When the verse where Paul talks about governors and authorities weilding the sword to punish evil was written, there was no democracy. It doesn't have anything to do with democracy.

+1

Also predictably, your excuses for the bloodletting against innocents under the guise of social/religious equality, increasingly expressed by the social engineers in our society (because they can, incidentally) would be impossible under an totalitarian Islamic state, presided over by an Ayottolah (sp?) smacks of a tolerance of oppression for the women and the powerless in our midst.

When did I excuse their actions? I just think that it is important that we understand the reasons for why people do the things they do.

Your seemingly misguided desire to tolerate an all too obvious trojan horse containing a real dinkum enemy without consideration to the security of our country, while becoming an increasingly popular view, is, nevertheless somewhat worrying, to say the least.

Given that ive contributed a significant part of the last 3 years of my life to the "security of our country", that hardly seems a fair comment. But thats ok, as you probably werent aware of that.


Islam is an enemy of our God, our tenets, paradoxically while sometimes seeming to agree, is basically poised and arraigned against Christianity. For us to tolerate same, makes us entertainers of an ideology opposed to God. In essence we become fence sitters. I think I'll make a stand for God.

Last time I checked God told us to try and be reconcilled with our enemies- Im not saying that we should merge with them... but at the very least peacefully coexist. Christians and Muslims have been doing it on and off for yonks (with a few big, notable exceptions). In many of the cases it has been the 'christians' who were responsible for starting the violence in some areas.

This dragging up the past and making the west the big, bad, boogie man is not doing anything to heal the rift!

Reconcillation generally begins with an admission of guilt wherever there is wrongdoing. Can you imagine a South Africa that didnt have the Commission for Light and Truth (or whatever it was called)?

The fact is that the conditions in many parts of the world that have created an excellent breeding ground for religious based terrorism are largely (but not entirely) the result of western governments and business operations. As uncomfortable as that thought might be, our prosperity has come at the expense of others. And increasingly "they" (whether overseas or at home, muslim or neo-nazi) aren't happy about it.
 
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Injured Soldier

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MOTH said:
Who said anything about killing anyone for their beliefs, Injured? I certainly didn't!

We are talking about a war, soldiers don't overcome the enemy with flowers and group hugs.

Non Christians aren't enemies of God! Why did you say that? Islam as a religion is, not the individual. Please don't make assumptions!

James 4.4: "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." I made no assumptions.

As for drawing Ned Kelly as an example, show us where he almost became Australia's biggest terrorist.

You know the famous Ned Kelly suit of armour with the helmet that looks like a garbage bin with an eyeslot? Ned Kelly didn't wear that all the time, it would be almost impossible to get around in (it was 97 pounds, and akward), and was only made in 1879 anyway. His plan was to hold people captive in Glenrowan pub and wait for a special detachment of 30 police to arrive by train (there were also civilians and black trackers on the train too), but just before they got there, to derail it, send it crashing into a small valley, then in armour Ned and his gang could pick off whoever they wanted that survived the crash and capture some. Fortunately,Thomas Curnow, warned the train about the plan, and crisis was averted. But this unsuccessful but still malevolently intended terrorist and theif turned into Australia's second most iconic character, right between Don Bradman and Phar Lap.

This dragging up the past and making the west the big, bad, boogie man is not doing anything to heal the rift!.

Isn't that a historian's job, to dig up the past? And the West isn't the big bad boogy man in this, but neither are they the noble Christian knights bringing civility to the savages. All this proves it that we are all sinners, and all want things our own way. And if we can, we are going to twist the past to feel OK about ourselves in the present.

I have yet to see even one apologist for Islam and their past sins, let alone a 'movement' among the people. The concentration of apologists seems to be from the Western nations. Not one report of a similar movement do I hear from the Eastern nations. Why is that, I wonder.

I don't know, how about you tell us MOTH?
 
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The Bad Templar

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Injured Soldier said:
I agree with you Templar, but I think it is a mistake to use US Religious Right and Fundamentalist Evangelicalism synonymously.

Why? I didn't inextricably link them... but they have quite a bit in common, don't ya think?


I think the assumption of this thread, ie that Christians have been vocal or silent supporters of the Iraq War is incorrect.

In Australia, the Anglican, Catholic and Uniting Churches have been outspoken in opposing the war.

In the US, I believe there has been a vocal group of Episcopalian and Catholic bishops expressing their opposition to the war.
 
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Johnnz

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It doesn't take much research to discover just how much the fundamentalist community is allied with current American policies, and has actively wooed an in return has been wooed by the Republican Party, even to the extent of providing church membership lists to that party for their purposes.

Link into the Sojourners site and get an informed non fundamentalist and thoroughly biblical analysis of current American policy. And, any Christian who cannot see the import of the original quote and its biblical propositions has a very limited view of just what the christian prophectic concepts of justice, righteousness and love of one's neighbour really entail.

John
NZ
 
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Marissa

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MOTH said:
I have yet to see even one apologist for Islam and their past sins, let alone a 'movement' among the people. The concentration of apologists seems to be from the Western nations. Not one report of a similar movement do I hear from the Eastern nations. Why is that, I wonder.

So, muslims in Australia, the US or the UK don't count?

I'm curious, how much to you read Moth? I've read a number of such articles in various magazines over the past month. Islam/West relations is a current favourite topic in TIME at the moment (understandably) and they've published quite a few.

I'm further curious why there needs to be a "movement" among Muslims in remorse for their past sins. Expecting muslims in France to apologise what Saudi muslims did to the world trade tower is ridiculous. As far as they're concerned their religion is as to blame for that as ours is to blame for the actions of King Richard during the Crusades.
 
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Marissa

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inquisitor_11 said:
The fact is that the conditions in many parts of the world that have created an excellent breeding ground for religious based terrorism are largely (but not entirely) the result of western governments and business operations. As uncomfortable as that thought might be, our prosperity has come at the expense of others. And increasingly "they" (whether overseas or at home, muslim or neo-nazi) aren't happy about it.

Please explain to me exactly how Western Governments and corporations to blame? Especially the latter. Given they can do nothing in any country without the governments approval.

The Middle East has put it self in the position it is in. It has chosen its govenments, and its governments policys. In some instances, there has been interference by the West however in the majority, we played a very small role. To take the blame off the Arabs isn't fair, or accurate.

Our prosperity has not come about at the expense of other nations. That is quite difficult to do, without invading anyhow. Rather our prosperity has come about because we moved forward with economic thinking and corresponding behaviour, whilst they didn't. They'd be better off initiating reforms of their own than blowing westerners up.
 
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Marissa

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Recent history. You mentioned the prosperity of the West at the expense of others. The world has only seen significant economic growth in the past 200 years. Prior to that we were all dirt poor, with the exception of a minority in the nobles in certain cultures.

Really, the more recent the better. When the topic is economics (under which "prosperity" firmly falls) 100 years is a long time. Just look at Argentina. Anything that was done prior to 200 years ago has had more than ample time to be addressed by the country concerned.
 
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MOTH

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Marissa said:
So, muslims in Australia, the US or the UK don't count?

I'm curious, how much to you read Moth? I've read a number of such articles in various magazines over the past month. Islam/West relations is a current favourite topic in TIME at the moment (understandably) and they've published quite a few.

I'm further curious why there needs to be a "movement" among Muslims in remorse for their past sins. Expecting muslims in France to apologise what Saudi muslims did to the world trade tower is ridiculous. As far as they're concerned their religion is as to blame for that as ours is to blame for the actions of King Richard during the Crusades.
After that immature comment, Marissa, I'm curious to know how old you are. You don't know me, but I can assure you I am very well educated and very well read. The fact that you read popular mainstream magazines to form your viewpoint smacks of a superficial understanding. Your argument that I said anything about Muslims in France needing to apologise for what Saudi Muslims did to the WTC is testament to your obvious inability to understand written English. I stand by my original premise that it seems to be popular among the Western nations to be overly apologistic for past wrongs committed by our ancestors and it seems to be overly popular among Muslim nations to blame Western nations for the state of affairs in their own countries. In our own country there seems to be an increasingly popular 'movement' (for want of a better word) trying to make us feel guilty for alleged past transgressions against Muslim nations. These apologists are speaking for themselves, because despite reading Time magazine like you, Marrisa, I'm mature enough to form my own opinion from more diverse and unbiased sources. I recognise propaganda when I see it.
 
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inquisitor_11

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hmm I think we could all use some ice cream here ay

Ice%20Cream%20Kid.jpg
 
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Marissa

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MOTH said:
After that immature comment, Marissa, I'm curious to know how old you are. You don't know me, but I can assure you I am very well educated and very well read. The fact that you read popular mainstream magazines to form your viewpoint smacks of a superficial understanding. Your argument that I said anything about Muslims in France needing to apologise for what Saudi Muslims did to the WTC is testament to your obvious inability to understand written English. I stand by my original premise that it seems to be popular among the Western nations to be overly apologistic for past wrongs committed by our ancestors and it seems to be overly popular among Muslim nations to blame Western nations for the state of affairs in their own countries. In our own country there seems to be an increasingly popular 'movement' (for want of a better word) trying to make us feel guilty for alleged past transgressions against Muslim nations. These apologists are speaking for themselves, because despite reading Time magazine like you, Marrisa, I'm mature enough to form my own opinion from more diverse and unbiased sources. I recognise propaganda when I see it.

The funny this is, I don't recall saying I get my opinion from Time magazine. I mentioned I'd seen comments in it from islamic sources who do consider islam to be at . Your posts led me to believe you were anything but well read and educated. I figured Time was something you might be able to get a hold of. In the very least you would have heard of it.

If you wish to believe that makes me simple and ignorant then go ahead.

You said there is no apologist movement amongst muslims for their past sins. My comment about Muslims in France apologising for 9/11 was simply taking what you said as just that. If you mean an apologist movement amongst muslims in Saudi Arabia, or any middle eastern country then you should have said that. Otherwise people are going to take comments as they are and apply them in situatios that show just how ridiculous they are.

I still fail to see why muslims who have committed no harm to us should apologise for the actions of fellow muslims, regardless of whether they live in Egypt or England. In the past decade "christians" have committed mass murder against muslims and I have no intention of apologising for their actions.

For that matter, rather than waiting on an apology that is highly unlikely to come perhaps it would be more beneficial to work towards solving the issue? A task which is difficult enough without shooting ourselves in the foot.

If you had happened to read my post directed towards inquisitor_11, you would have realised I do not agree with all the notions that the west is to blame for the situation in the Middle East. The world isn't black and white Moth. Nor are most peoples opinions. Especially if they're well read.
 
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MOTH

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Yes, Marissa, I think we've been somewhat on crossed purposes here and I apologise for getting personal. I do however, consider it ignorant of you to assume that I am poorly read. I also suspect I have many more miles on the clock. I have an opinion, perhaps opposed to yours, and gained through long experience, although I do see we agree on some points. To put it simply, I love my country. Sometimes I don't agree with some of it's foreign policies, but in the main, I'm proud of our collective compassion and generosity and our freedom to choose. I don't think I'm alone in getting a tad upset when I hear this constant stream of invective, vitriol and justification for the terrorism which has been brought to our doorstep. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough before, so here goes. Western nations are full of people writing to newspapers, current affairs shows, even The Australian newspaper, some of whose columnists seem to have a mission in life to allege and accuse our that it is our government's (ALP or Lib - whoever's in power, any sitting Gov't will do) fault that these terrorists are targetting us. I have a right to disagree with that. I fail to see how we are the aggressors. I am simply saying that it's a shame this same self-flagellating culture of thought isn't occuring (or perhaps not allowed) in some Muslim countries. It seems our Western nations are the only ones examining ourselves and our motives. There, I think we will have to leave it before we break the rules and get into a debate!
 
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