** SPOILERS** Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince

I'm still leaning towards the reason for Dumbledore pleading as the potion... but it's a tough call.

I don't have my book right now so I can't check it out, but remember when Dumbledore took Harry with him to find the Locket? He made Harry promise to do whatever he said to him to protect himself, even if it involved leaving him (Dumbledore) and letting him die. It's pretty obvious he was preparing Harry for the possibility of his death...I would go so far as to say that he knew that he was most likely going to be killed.

Pope, here's my question to you about Dumbledore's pleading...do you think he was really afraid to die? And if not out of fear, then why plead? Because he's said multiple times in other books that there are far worse things than death (indicating to me that he was not afraid in the least). Also, the whole point of educating Harry about Voldemort was so Harry would know everything that he knew about him (i.e. Harry no longer needs Dumbledore for information)...he was preparing Harry with the knowledge he'd need to fight Voldemort on his own.

And I don't think it was the after effects of the potion causing Dumbledore's 'weakness'...I think it was his way of convicting Snape to do what MUST be done (killing him). And Snape's anger and hatred of Harry will now only be intensified, I think...if we can assume that Lily was somehow important to Snape, then we can see how Snape would feel that Harry is responsible for the deaths of 2 people that he truly cared about. And to have Harry call him a coward when Snape has given up so much for Harry's sake...

It makes me sad for Snape. Oh, and for whoever asked a few posts back, I think Snape was most definitely trying to give Harry advice as he was leaving.

HeatherJay said:

I don't have my book right now so I can't check it out, but remember when Dumbledore took Harry with him to find the Locket? He made Harry promise to do whatever he said to him to protect himself, even if it involved leaving him (Dumbledore) and letting him die. It's pretty obvious he was preparing Harry for the possibility of his death...I would go so far as to say that he knew that he was most likely going to be killed.

Pope, here's my question to you about Dumbledore's pleading...do you think he was really afraid to die? And if not out of fear, then why plead? Because he's said multiple times in other books that there are far worse things than death (indicating to me that he was not afraid in the least). Also, the whole point of educating Harry about Voldemort was so Harry would know everything that he knew about him (i.e. Harry no longer needs Dumbledore for information)...he was preparing Harry with the knowledge he'd need to fight Voldemort on his own.

And I don't think it was the after effects of the potion causing Dumbledore's 'weakness'...I think it was his way of convicting Snape to do what MUST be done (killing him). And Snape's anger and hatred of Harry will now only be intensified, I think...if we can assume that Lily was somehow important to Snape, then we can see how Snape would feel that Harry is responsible for the deaths of 2 people that he truly cared about. And to have Harry call him a coward when Snape has given up so much for Harry's sake...

It makes me sad for Snape. Oh, and for whoever asked a few posts back, I think Snape was most definitely trying to give Harry advice as he was leaving.

Click to expand...

Bingo.... after reading into a lot of theories, I think yours is about the closet to the mark of what I thought.

I don't think Dumbledore was afraid to die at all. But the potion obviously weakened him and made him want to die. Dumbledore also shows that he's able to summon up his strength very well, but he's also very old and can't hold up to pressures he may have been able to in the past. Maybe he was pleading with Snape to put him out of his misery...

I was reading some of the posts on here, and I dn't know if it's been mentioned or not, but I personally feel that Snape isn't a double crosser. Okay... he killed Voldemort, yes? BUT: Remember also that Snape and Dumbledore were arguing incessantly. My theory: is that Dumbledore knew that Malfoy was charged by Voldemort to kill Him; so he made Snape make an unbreakable vow that he would kill him, so that A) Malfoy didn't have to become a murderer, B) Snape wouldn't have to kill Malfoy for not doing his duty. (Unbreakable vow at the begining, remember?.

And Dumbledore won't be gone for good, per say. I'm sure he'll have his own portrait in the headmaster's office.

Someone mentioned that RAB would come around, as he obviously wants to destroy Voldemort, and be Harry's companion. This is possible, but I feel it's unlikely. Harry is on his own now, for the most part. That's the way it has to be. Noone but Harry is going to kill Voldemort. He needs to learn to depend upon himself more. I know he has friends and can depend on them, but look how many times Harry has saved his own life (and been saved by Dumbledore for that matter.

In ANY case these are my theories... what thinkest thou?

krstlros said:

Okay, I don't know if this has been suggested yet as I haven't read the entire thread. Sorry.

What if Dumbledore isn't really dead? Could it be that, like the Phoenix, he will rise again from the ashes? I know it does sound rather far fetched, but it could be a possibility for the last book.

Click to expand...

Actually, I think that it is a possibility. I also believe that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix too.

My theory, I hope it's okay that I share it and that it isn't a repeat of someone else...

I believe that when Harry and Dumbledore had gone to look for one of Voldemort's horcruxes in the cave.. i.e. the necklace (which I believe is now located in the Black house among the mother's things or in the attack)...

Well, I believe that stuff that Dumbledore had to drink in the cave and then drank the water where inferios (dead people) were, did not take his life, but sustained his life. I also believe that Dumbledore is going to pull a "White Gandolf (from LOTR). Now, I know that JKR said that no one will come back from the dead, but I betcha ya that there will be something unusual regarding Dumbledore.

Also, R.A.B. I believe was Sirius's little brother who found the necklace and outsmarted Voldemort and that is probably what got him killed.

Another theory could be that Dumbledore has horcruxes too. Another theory could be that Dumbledore is dead and he sacrificed himself on purpose for the sake of Malfoy not becoming a murderer. I believe that Snape and Dumbledore had this worked out and planned prior to when it took place. Also, Dumbledore told Snape to do it... I honestly think that Snape will come out at the end as one of the good guys. I could be wrong, and I hope that I am... because I don't particular care for Snape.

Another theory I have is that I believe that JKR had to end the book with Dumbledore's supposely death due to the purpose of Harry having to take control of the situation and not rely on Dumbledore. I believe that Harry has inherited most of Voldemort's power and it's just a matter of HP figuring out how to utilize this power to overcome Voldemort.

Okay... thanks.

eden2760 said:

I was reading some of the posts on here, and I dn't know if it's been mentioned or not, but I personally feel that Snape isn't a double crosser. Okay... he killed Voldemort, yes? BUT: Remember also that Snape and Dumbledore were arguing incessantly. My theory: is that Dumbledore knew that Malfoy was charged by Voldemort to kill Him; so he made Snape make an unbreakable vow that he would kill him, so that A) Malfoy didn't have to become a murderer, B) Snape wouldn't have to kill Malfoy for not doing his duty. (Unbreakable vow at the begining, remember?.

And Dumbledore won't be gone for good, per say. I'm sure he'll have his own portrait in the headmaster's office.

Someone mentioned that RAB would come around, as he obviously wants to destroy Voldemort, and be Harry's companion. This is possible, but I feel it's unlikely. Harry is on his own now, for the most part. That's the way it has to be. Noone but Harry is going to kill Voldemort. He needs to learn to depend upon himself more. I know he has friends and can depend on them, but look how many times Harry has saved his own life (and been saved by Dumbledore for that matter.

In ANY case these are my theories... what thinkest thou?

Click to expand...

Good theories... LOL

D'Ann said:

Another theory could be that Dumbledore has horcruxes too.

Click to expand...

That would make Dumbledore a murderer. I don't think anyone here would want that. Personally, I think Dumbledore was a pompous fool in the sixth book and I was indifferent when he died. I don't want him to come back in any form. But I wouldn't be surprised to see him pull a "White Gandalf" either, given she has ripped off most significant mythical and fantasy literature in the Anglo-Saxon tradition in the Harry Potter series.

eden2760 said:

And Dumbledore won't be gone for good, per say. I'm sure he'll have his own portrait in the headmaster's office.

Click to expand...

As I said before, that depends on the sufferance of the Headmaster. Harry comes and goes in the Headmaster's Office at Dumbledore's invite and dismissal, why should any other future Hogwarts principal be different? You could argue that Dumbledore would ask for Harry, but then did Dumbledore listen to the portraits of previous Headmasters who tried to offer their advice? Nope. Why should any future Hogwarts principal be different? I have no doubt Harry will talk to Dumbledore through his portrait once if he visits Hogwarts. But not on a regular basis.

Someone mentioned that RAB would come around, as he obviously wants to destroy Voldemort, and be Harry's companion. This is possible, but I feel it's unlikely. Harry is on his own now, for the most part. That's the way it has to be. Noone but Harry is going to kill Voldemort. He needs to learn to depend upon himself more. I know he has friends and can depend on them, but look how many times Harry has saved his own life (and been saved by Dumbledore for that matter.

Click to expand...

RAB could be a ruse as well, giving Harry a false confidence that he thinks the horocrux destroyed when it was really spirited away by one of Voldemort's followers who left the note to make Harry waste time thinking there is an ally out there who wants to destroy Voldemort, possibly searching for him, and also thinking there is one more Horocrux destroyed than there really is.

Did anyone notice Harry hoping for a death by the end of the book? On p159 we see this exchange take place between Hermione, Ron and Harry when the former informs the latter of Snape's appointment to DADA teacher:

Harry: "Well, there's one good thing, Snape'll be gone by the end of the year."
Ron: "What do you mean?"
Harry: " That job's jinxed. No one's lasted more than a year...Quirrell actually died doing it. Personally, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for another death..."
Hermione: "Harry!"

Harry didn't specify who, although we know who he meant by the topic. Careful what you with for. I feel sorry for Snape. James Potter picks on him with no less than four troublesome hoods in tow. And then his son comes along 11 years after James' death with a huge prejudice against Snape, determined to make the teacher's life a living hell. Even though Snape constantly saves Potter through the first 4 books, that Potter ingrate wishes for a death at the start of book 6, not thinking it's possible that death could be someone close to him.

Whats Dumbledore's boggard? JK said we could work it out from HBP.

She said we would at some point find out what Snape's was, and what Dudley heard when the Dementors came. But I don't remember her ever saying anything about Dumbledore's boggart.

Injured Soldier said:

That would make Dumbledore a murderer. I don't think anyone here would want that. Personally, I think Dumbledore was a pompous <edit> in the sixth book and I was indifferent when he died. I don't want him to come back in any form. But I wouldn't be surprised to see him pull a "White Gandalf" either, given she has ripped off most significant mythical and fantasy literature in the Anglo-Saxon tradition in the Harry Potter series.

Click to expand...

You are right about the Horocruxes. Dumbledore never "murdered" anyone and thus, perhaps, he will not come back in that way. Good point and thanks.

As I said before, that depends on the sufferance of the Headmaster. Harry comes and goes in the Headmaster's Office at Dumbledore's invite and dismissal, why should any other future Hogwarts principal be different? You could argue that Dumbledore would ask for Harry, but then did Dumbledore listen to the portraits of previous Headmasters who tried to offer their advice? Nope. Why should any future Hogwarts principal be different? I have no doubt Harry will talk to Dumbledore through his portrait once if he visits Hogwarts. But not on a regular basis.

Click to expand...

I think it depends on who will be the next Headmaster or Headmistress. I think McGonagall(sp? sorry)... might be the next Head Mistress at Hogwarts and if she is, then she will probably be more open to Dumbledore's picture advice and allow Harry some access to the office to communicate with Dumbledore.

Another point too is that the people in the pictures can visit their other pictures and so if Harry has a picture of Dumbledore which we know that he does. How do we know, because in the first book, he opened up a chocolate frog and with the chocolate frog, there are picture cards of famous wizards and Harry had one of Dumbledore. Plus, I'm sure that Harry could get another picture of Dumbledore and communicate with him anywhere. Of course, I can't help but wonder that if he can communicate with Dumbledore, why wouldn't he also be able to communicate with Black or his parents. So, there goes my theory out the door.

RAB could be a ruse as well, giving Harry a false confidence that he thinks the horocrux destroyed when it was really spirited away by one of Voldemort's followers who left the note to make Harry waste time thinking there is an ally out there who wants to destroy Voldemort, possibly searching for him, and also thinking there is one more Horocrux destroyed than there really is.

Click to expand...

That could be also. Very clever.

Did anyone notice Harry hoping for a death by the end of the book? On p159 we see this exchange take place between Hermione, Ron and Harry when the former informs the latter of Snape's appointment to DADA teacher:

Harry: "Well, there's one good thing, Snape'll be gone by the end of the year."
Ron: "What do you mean?"
Harry: " That job's jinxed. No one's lasted more than a year...Quirrell actually died doing it. Personally, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed for another death..."
Hermione: "Harry!"

Harry didn't specify who, although we know who he meant by the topic. Careful what you with for. I feel sorry for Snape. James Potter picks on him with no less than four troublesome hoods in tow. And then his son comes along 11 years after James' death with a huge prejudice against Snape, determined to make the teacher's life a living hell. Even though Snape constantly saves Potter through the first 4 books, that Potter ingrate wishes for a death at the start of book 6, not thinking it's possible that death could be someone close to him.

Click to expand...

Okay, here we kinda of disagree. The first time Snape talks to Harry, it is to criticize him in the first book. "I guess fame isn't everything"... Harry at first did not know anything about James or Sirius/Lupin or any grudge that they had against Snape, nor did Harry know about any grudge that Snape had against James and Sirius and Lupan either. It was Snape who seemed to be constantly criticizing Harry and failed to give any positive feedback at all. He rejected Harry, it was not Harry who rejected Snape first, but after constant put-downs and criticism, Harry learned that Snape was not one that he could trust or have faith in. Although, in the 4th and 5th book, Harry could of been more forgiving and tried to end the grudge, but didn't.

Debbie

D'Ann said:

Okay, here we kinda of disagree. The first time Snape talks to Harry, it is to criticize him in the first book. "I guess fame isn't everything"... Harry at first did not know anything about James or Sirius/Lupin or any grudge that they had against Snape, nor did Harry know about any grudge that Snape had against James and Sirius and Lupan either. It was Snape who seemed to be constantly criticizing Harry and failed to give any positive feedback at all. He rejected Harry, it was not Harry who rejected Snape first, but after constant put-downs and criticism, Harry learned that Snape was not one that he could trust or have faith in. Although, in the 4th and 5th book, Harry could of been more forgiving and tried to end the grudge, but didn't.

Click to expand...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Harry's dislike of Snape is not anything akin to Snape's dislike of Harry. Yes, Snape is critical of Harry's fame, he would be especially after the treatment he got from James during school, then knowing he was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy, even though he was sorry after the fact and tried to make amends, just hearing Potter's name and fame would be a criticism of his own actions and past mistakes he paid for and then some. I have to go back to read the first book, but it isn't long after the first or second criticism of Harry's fame that Harry slips into his attitude for pretty much the rest of the series: he does not think Snape is overly critical or a bad teacher (which he might be right in doing), but he thinks he is central to all evil that goes on at Hogwarts. The same way he treats Malfoy, who is also critical of Potter. Seems to me Potter is something of a dictator with little power, who attributes great evil to anyone who dislikes him.

And when Harry finds out it was Quirrell, not Snape, does he apologize to Snape? No. In fact, for all his wrong doing in attributing bad motives to Snape, despite Snape rescuing Potter numerous times, Harry never once gives a heartfelt apology.

Although I have to say, this hatred and suspicion of Snape has something to do with the movies. I think JKR was a genius to decide to release the movies before the book series was over, as Alan Rickman's Snape is sooooo slimy. Most people want to know he's a badguy, or at least bitter and twisted.

But I do like your idea about talking through the card, I never thought of that.

Injured Soldier said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. Harry's dislike of Snape is not anything akin to Snape's dislike of Harry. Yes, Snape is critical of Harry's fame, he would be especially after the treatment he got from James during school, then knowing he was the one who told Voldemort about the prophecy, even though he was sorry after the fact and tried to make amends, just hearing Potter's name and fame would be a criticism of his own actions and past mistakes he paid for and then some. I have to go back to read the first book, but it isn't long after the first or second criticism of Harry's fame that Harry slips into his attitude for pretty much the rest of the series: he does not think Snape is overly critical or a bad teacher (which he might be right in doing), but he thinks he is central to all evil that goes on at Hogwarts. The same way he treats Malfoy, who is also critical of Potter. Seems to me Potter is something of a dictator with little power, who attributes great evil to anyone who dislikes him.

And when Harry finds out it was Quirrell, not Snape, does he apologize to Snape? No. In fact, for all his wrong doing in attributing bad motives to Snape, despite Snape rescuing Potter numerous times, Harry never once gives a heartfelt apology.

Although I have to say, this hatred and suspicion of Snape has something to do with the movies. I think JKR was a genius to decide to release the movies before the book series was over, as Alan Rickman's Snape is sooooo slimy. Most people want to know he's a badguy, or at least bitter and twisted.

But I do like your idea about talking through the card, I never thought of that.

Click to expand...

Okay, we can agree to disagree. I do see your points too. I grudgingly feel sorry for Snape and secretly... don't tell my daughters this... but secretly I'm hoping that Snape and Harry become friends in the last book.

I do recommend that you read the first book. The first book explains in more detail the beginnings of the tensions between Harry and Snape.

I've read the first five books many times looking for "clues"... LOL and the 6th one, I'm now reading again for the second time. I enjoy the story... don't know why, except they are entertaining.

Thanks,

Debbie

hi,ya it was really depressing when he died he was one of my favorite people in the book always full of inspiration..maybe they'll still be able to talk to him through the portrait of his picture in what was once his office,at least the relationship between the Harry and his best friends are closer and they'll face everything with him,still hope that Harry gets back together with Ginny towards the end of the 7th book,and i can't wait to see the Half Blood Prince Die...by the hands of Harry especially.

Snape may be on Harry's side though...we dont know anything for sure.

Followers4christ said:

hi,ya it was really depressing when he died he was one of my favorite people in the book always full of inspiration..maybe they'll still be able to talk to him through the portrait of his picture in what was once his office,at least the relationship between the Harry and his best friends are closer and they'll face everything with him,still hope that Harry gets back together with Ginny towards the end of the 7th book,and i can't wait to see the Half Blood Prince Die...by the hands of Harry especially.

Click to expand...

I love Dumbledore too and I was sooooo bummed when he died too. I couldn't even say anything for two days either because my daughters were still reading the book and hadn't gotten to that part yet. It was so heartbreaking and I really do hope that somehow he comes back in one way or another.

You are also right in that Hermoine and Ron and even Ginny and Luna and Neville will be there for Harry. I also believe that the Weasleys will be there too as his extended family. Also Hagrid and some of the teachers will be there for Harry too and probably other characters who so far have only been introduced in the background.

I'm glad to see that you are a Harry and Ginny "shipper". My daughters and I are too. The chemistry between them throughout the books was always special and unique.

As far as Snape being killed off... The only way that I would like to see Snape killed off is if he truly is a traitor and a death eater. Then Harry really has two powerful enemies after him. Snape is no dummy.

My take though about Snape killing Dumbledore, is that, Dumbledore and him had a prior agreement that if it came down to Malfoy having to do it... that instead Snape was to do it. The books are so filled with so much sacrifice "in the name of love"... and it wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore was sacrificing himself for Malfoy and Malfoy's family. At the sametime, perhaps, if there was an arrangement between Dumbledore and Snape on the behalf of Malfoy, maybe between the two of them, there could also have been another arrangement of how to fake Dumbledore's death.

God's Peace,

Debbie

My take though about Snape killing Dumbledore, is that, Dumbledore and him had a prior agreement that if it came down to Malfoy having to do it... that instead Snape was to do it. The books are so filled with so much sacrifice "in the name of love"... and it wouldn't surprise me if Dumbledore was sacrificing himself for Malfoy and Malfoy's family. At the sametime, perhaps, if there was an arrangement between Dumbledore and Snape on the behalf of Malfoy, maybe between the two of them, there could also have been another arrangement of how to fake Dumbledore's death.

Click to expand...

*COUGH* Unbreakable Vow *COUGH* (Don't forget the argument that Hagrid overheard).

My theory behind Snape's dislike for Harry goes back to James Potter, Harry's father. By all indications, Harry looks exactly like his father, except for the eyes, which reminds Snape of his days at Hogwarts and how James and his Gang use to play tricks on Snape. One of the bad human traits of adults reflecting their disilike of one another onto the children.

34 pages...please forgive me for not reading through it all before posting this. If It has already been discussed you can just ignore it.

I hear theories of Harry being a horcrux. What if it simply was the scar that was the horcrux? Couldn't Harry either remove it himself or maybe Voldemort strikes it and inadvertently destroys it himself or ... perhaps that scars works as a sort of lightning rod and protection from Voldemort. Who knows. Just a thought.

CZzyzx41 said:

34 pages...please forgive me for not reading through it all before posting this. If It has already been discussed you can just ignore it.

I hear theories of Harry being a horcrux. What if it simply was the scar that was the horcrux? Couldn't Harry either remove it himself or maybe Voldemort strikes it and inadvertently destroys it himself or ... perhaps that scars works as a sort of lightning rod and protection from Voldemort. Who knows. Just a thought.

Click to expand...

That's a very, very interesting thought, actually (I think someone mentioned in passing the scar being a horcrux earlier one, but...). Remember the very first chapter of the very first book? McGonagall ask Dumbledore if he could do something for Baby Harry so that he wouldn't have to live with that awful scar. Dumbledore said something like, "Even if I could, I wouldn't...scars are useful" and then went on about his scar on his knee in the shape of the London underground or something.

When I read your post it made me remember that conversation. Very interesting.