Biblical examples of people who lost their salvation

Missy,

I am fully persuaded I agree with you that we were given freedom to choose. You are a peace maker, thank you for that.

Blessings to you

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Free Will doesn't evaporate once you accept the gift."

You're not geting the point VOW. If you eat mud all your life then one day a guy gives you a ticket for a lifetime supply of steak or any other food you want. I'm willing to bet anything that you'll never eat mud again. Same logic set to accepting and never loosing your salvation.

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Oh, Louis I'm getting the point. I'm just saying, there ARE people, whether you admit it or not, who will eat the steak, and then STUPIDLY SAY, "Maybe the mud wasn't so bad after all, I'm going to taste it again."

To the OSAS teaching, that person never had the steak to begin with.

You cannot MAKE that type of determination. People are basically STUPID, Louis. I've been a landlord for over twenty years, and I've had first hand knowledge of the incredible stupidity of people.

My point, is that when an OSAS person tells the mud-steak-mud guy, "Hey, you couldn't have tasted the steak, REALLY, or you never would have gone back to mud," you are discounting the possibility that he actually DID HAVE GENUINE STEAK for a while.

And it's quite likely that he's gonna say, "Well, if THAT wasn't genuine steak, then I don't want any part of the steak you are selling."

People ARE STUPID. You can give them the world on a string, and they'll CUT THE STRING because of that very stupidity.

In the OSAS way of thinking, you don't make accommodations for that stupidity.

OSNAS way of thinking, the accommodation is there. And it has been my experience, that the Christian faith is designed to accommodate stupid, fallible, screwed-up people. To me, that's the very beauty of it. God UNDERSTANDS us so well, He's more than willing to give out second chances, third chances, fourth chances, and so on.

I'm so glad God is more patient than PEOPLE are!



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by eldermike
Missy,

I am fully persuaded I agree with you that we were given freedom to choose. You are a peace maker, thank you for that.

Blessings to you

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Amen Elder Mike! We will be buddies in heaven!!!

Whooooooooooo hoooooo!!!

Bless you Elder,
Missy

Originally posted by WayneH


missy - thats what most of us have been saying also....... the problem here goes more to those trying to prove OSAS is wrong.. you see - most of us here are content to Believe as we do - because we are fully persuaded in OSAS........ its no different then the catholics getting all bent out of shape because someone questions their doctrine - they cry that we are bashing them.....

well - its goes the same here - those that do not believe in OSAS ( you excluded ) have been bashing the other side and saying We are wrong - we're crazy for thinking such things and basically saying hey - you lost your salvation if you get jealous......

just for clarity also missy... the Methodist church ( NOT SAYING AME ) taught OSAS and many Pastors still do... so - its no different then most other things - you have to reconcile your heart and mind to God.. you know - I disagree with My pastor on the Rapture.. He has his beliefs and I have Mine.. same goes in here... I am fully persuaded of My Salvation..

I am fully persuaded that I have a seat reserved and NOTHING can seperate Me from the Love of GOD... and one thing that irks Me is someone coming along and saying I am being presumptious by saying I am assured of My salvation... when they should say what you did.. you have to go by your heart.. We go by ours... and the BOTTOM LINE IS - is it a SALVATION ISSUE?? NO.. OSAS - OSNAS - will not save you.. only the blood of Christ...
the rest will only cause conflict...........

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Well I am happy in Christ for you WayneH. But to clarify this is what Methodist DO BELIEVE on the subject of OSAS:
This is straight from the doctrinal standards of the Methodist faith:

Falling from grace is the teaching that it is possible for someone who knows Christ and His forgiveness to fall from grace and to lose his salvation. This was in contrast to Calvinistic teaching that the elect would never fall away. Today, some would refer to this as "once saved, always saved" or "eternal security." Although Methodists believe in the possibility of falling from grace they also believe we are secure in Christ as we continue to look to Him in faith. A single sin does not cause us to fall from grace. It is important to confess our sins to God and to know that we are forgiven when we do. Sin hurts our fellowship with God but does not take away the relationship. Unbelief and willful turning away is what destroys our relationship with God. Scriptures: Galatians 5:1-4; Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 6:4-6; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 2:20-22; 1 John 1:1:9.

The bolded sentence is my point of what I was trying to get across.

Missy,

Yes we will be Missy, we have been given tickets, free. Amen.

1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

1CO 15:55 "Where, O death, is your victory?

Where, O death, is your sting?"

1CO 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We will be buddies in Heaven.

Mike

Originally posted by eldermike
Missy,

Yes we will be Missy, we have been given tickets, free. Amen.

1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

1CO 15:55 "Where, O death, is your victory?

Where, O death, is your sting?"

1CO 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We will be buddies in Heaven.

Mike

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Amen Elder Mike, AMEN!

I would love to hear you preach a sermon!
I know I would enjoy it.

God bless,
Missy

Hebrews 6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance , because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


For those that believe OSNAS how do you reconcile the belief that you can regain your salvation with this passage in Hebrews 6?? It says very clearly that if you fall way there will be no return!! You cannot continually RE-crucify Jesus. As the passage says, you would be continuing to subject him to the public digrace that he underwent for us already. Once was enough....the final be-all and end-all.

So, if you believe OSNAS, and you have committed any of the sins from the "lists" that have been argued exhaustively on this thread, then you have once and forever renounced your place in Christ for He will NOT be crucified again!

Hebrews 6
17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure.

My soul is forever anchored with and in Christ. To doubt this is to doubt the very oath God has made to those of us that have "fled to take hold of the hope".

Missy and Mike: Thank you! Where's the love here, people?

It just is upsetting to me that what I believe is getting bashed. And I'm not a Catholic-basher, or a atheist-basher, or any of the sort. Most of the people on this thread know that. If you don't want what you believe bashed, don't bash what someone else beleives. You might be misunderstanding something.

For those that believe OSNAS how do you reconcile the belief that you can regain your salvation with this passage in Hebrews 6?? It says very clearly that if you fall way there will be no return!! You cannot continually RE-crucify Jesus. As the passage says, you would be continuing to subject him to the public digrace that he underwent for us already. Once was enough....the final be-all and end-all.

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I think we've discussed this one, but happy to discuss it again. That passage in Heb6 is most easily understood in the Greek. Specifically, in regard to verb TENSE. It is most correctly translated: "For in the case of those who have been once enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift and been bade partakers of the Holy Spirit..."
There are those who contend that THEY WERE ONLY SUPERFICIAL, not really SAVED. But can "lurkers, not-really-saved", can the UNSAVED be made partakers of the Holy Spirit??? Does the Holy Spirit indwell THOSE WHO ARE NOT SAVED??? "...those who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the powers of the age to come, and then ARE FALLING AWAY, it is impossible..." Impossible to what? Restore salvation? No! "For it is impossible to restore them to repentance, SINCE they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him up to contempt".

Let's deviate a moment from this Scripture, and read Hebrews 3:12-13: "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, ...lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin".

What if it is possible to be deceived by sin, into UNBELIEF? Unbelief which causes the heart to be hardened? What then will be the attitude towards Christ? Only one attitude in that condition: contempt!

So, in Heb6, it simply says: "Those who were TRULY SAVED, and if they FALL AWAY (because of hardening by deceitful sin), it is impossible to restore them to repentance, SINCE they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him up to contempt."

The "hinge", the "fulcrum" of this entire passage, is the word, SINCE. Which has the meaning of BECAUSE.

"They won't want to repent, WHILE they are falling away, BECAUSE they have disbelieved in Him and become contemptuous."

Thus, the entire problem in this passage, is with THEMSELVES. Their UNBELIEF.

But if their unbelief CEASES, other Scripture is clear that He will welcome them back, just as did the father with the Prodigal Son...

So, if you believe OSNAS, and you have committed any of the sins from the "lists" that have been argued exhaustively on this thread, then you have once and forever renounced your place in Christ for He will NOT be crucified again!

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Salvation is not "lost" by "committing any of the sins from the lists". Actually, salvation cannot be LOST at ALL. This is because of what salvation IS. Salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus. Why do Paul and Peter give us the lists? In harmony with what Jesus said. Salvation is CHRIST-IN-YOU; and therefore, he-(she)-who-has-Christ-inside, will CONSEQUENTIALLY do the good deeds.

If a Christian stumbles and "does a sin from the list", he does not necessarily fall-from-salvation. Remember, salvation cannot be LOST---it can only be REJECTED. If the person's heart becomes hardened, so that DOING sins from the "bad-list" become habitual, repetitive WITHOUT REPENTANCE, then Christ no longer abides in his heart (Gal2:20)---and salvation has been REJECTED.

Hebrews 6:6 (since they crucify to themselves Christ again), is identical with Heb10:26: "For if we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins..." Without repentance, Jesus' ONE death does not pay for sins. It is as if He need die again-and-again. Which cannot be---He died ONCE.

He died ONCE, to forgive our sin (not "sins")---all conditional upon our belief, and our repentance.

Our hope is sure and steadfast, an anchor for our soul---our hope is "what WE have FLED FOR refuge, in OUR LAYING AHOLD of the hope set before us".

WHAT is our "HOPE"? It's not a what, it's WHO!

Our HOPE is JESUS!!!

"According to the commandment of God our Savior, Christ Jesus, WHO IS OUR HOPE!" 1Tim1:1

I often wonder if I communicate things well. I hope I have this time...

Super, who's bashing whom here? All I've seen are sincere questions, and honest answers.

...and lotsa Scripture...

"In the OSAS way of thinking, you don't make accommodations for that stupidity. "

That's right because people that find God won't turn away. Period. It just won't happen after you have know what its like without him.

originally posted by Ben johnson
If a Christian stumbles and "does a sin from the list", he does not necessarily fall-from-salvation. Remember, salvation cannot be LOST---it can only be REJECTED. If the person's heart becomes hardened, so that DOING sins from the "bad-list" become habitual, repetitive WITHOUT REPENTANCE, then Christ no longer abides in his heart (Gal2:20)---and salvation has been REJECTED.

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I agreed with much of your post. I still find it hard to believe a "true" born again believer would/could turn away. My reason for this stance is from my own personal experience.

I was saved at a very young age, yet had a very tumultuous adolescence. I was raised Christian and had tasted the goodness of God. But when i was about 15 I decided i hated everything my parents and the church stood for. I went so far at one point as to burn my bible and pray to satan. I wanted to be evil. I wanted to be the antithesis of everything God stood for. I can't remember now how long i was like that. About a year would be my guess. I came back to God, full of remorse and sorrow, but my Christian walk was full of ups and downs. I would be faithful for months and then live in sin for months. It was a terrible and exhausting cycle.

So, since at one point, I chose to denounce God then I must have "rejected" my salvation. Right? And in rejecting said salvation I would be incapable of repenting and coming back to Christ. Fortunately for me that was not true. Though I tried to get rid of God, He never gave up on me. He kept pulling me back, no matter what i did or what I professed. It pains me now to know the damage I probably caused to the cause of Christ in some peoples lives during these times. But I also feel an untold joy and gratitude that I KNOW from personal experience that I serve a God who is bigger than I am and who will never ever give up on me.

Many of the arguments for "rejecting" salvation are very persuasive, but I will stick with what God has revealed as truth to me in my very own life. I thank God that He made that oath with me that Heb 6:17-19 talks about. He always keeps me and protects me. Like the Good Shepherd that he is, when I stray (even intentionally) He searches for me and brings me back to the fold. Whether I stray or not I am still a sheep. A sheep that is, thankfully, important to its Shepherd in all circumstances.

God bless and keep you

And in rejecting said salvation I would be incapable of repenting and coming back to Christ.

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There is nothing in Scripture that says "you cannot come back". (For a discussion of Heb6:4-6, click here.

I believe that "the Good shepherd DOES go looking for the one sheep". I am pleased that you are back in His fold.

God bless you!

There is nothing in Scripture that says "you cannot come back". (For a discussion of Heb6:4-6, click here.

I believe that "the Good shepherd DOES go looking for the one sheep". I am pleased that you are back in His fold.

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I have read and re-read Hebrews 6:4-6, and if read in the belief of OSNAS then there definitely is no "return" to Christ. You cannot be brought back to repentance. If you cannot repent, you cannot be saved. If you cannot be saved then you cannot be back with Christ.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance

I, of course, do not believe that this verse talks about a true believer. I believe it is talking about those that have been around Christ and/or church, hearing the Word, seeing His glory, even feeling His presence, probably even calling themselves "Christian", and sharing in the fruit brought about by the Spirit with the believers but in the end they turn their backs on it all and are given up to their own desires...for good. The difference here being that they were never really true believers. I was and am and can never be anything but a true believer. God has sealed me.

I broke fellowship for a time and, regretfully, grieved my Lord greatly. Despite myself He continued to work on me through circumstances and people. He turned very bad situations into good. Well, they were still bad but it served to bring about something good in me.

Anyway, all that because I would like to know at what point I could actually "fall away" to the point of losing or rejecting my salvation. And, I ask again, doesn't Hebrews 6 say VERY clearly that if (in OSNAS view) I got to the point it would be IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back?

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.






In re-reading this thread, especially
the first page, it seems some are confusing the saving of the soul with the saving of the body . Has anyone else seen that?


Julie

Originally posted by tericl2


I have read and re-read Hebrews 6:4-6, and if read in the belief of OSNAS then there definitely is no "return" to Christ. You cannot be brought back to repentance. If you cannot repent, you cannot be saved. If you cannot be saved then you cannot be back with Christ.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance

I, of course, do not believe that this verse talks about a true believer. I believe it is talking about those that have been around Christ and/or church, hearing the Word, seeing His glory, even feeling His presence, probably even calling themselves "Christian", and sharing in the fruit brought about by the Spirit with the believers but in the end they turn their backs on it all and are given up to their own desires...for good. The difference here being that they were never really true believers. I was and am and can never be anything but a true believer. God has sealed me.

I broke fellowship for a time and, regretfully, grieved my Lord greatly. Despite myself He continued to work on me through circumstances and people. He turned very bad situations into good. Well, they were still bad but it served to bring about something good in me.

Anyway, all that because I would like to know at what point I could actually "fall away" to the point of losing or rejecting my salvation. And, I ask again, doesn't Hebrews 6 say VERY clearly that if (in OSNAS view) I got to the point it would be IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back?

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Hello, teric

This verse is speaking of a true believer and that it is impossible for this believer to fall away from GRACE.

The key words are "It is impossible" "If they fall away"
Notice the word IF.

I am glad to see you are into the WORD.

And can see that you what many who read his WORD are unable to recognize.

Please do not stop reading, because these passages are spoken in a context of a full meassage.

It is impossible for someone who has been made a paretaker (some versions use the word shared for this word); of the Holy Spirit; "If they fall away, to bring them brought back to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God AGAIN , and put him to an open shame."


A person who has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit is a person who has received the Holy Spirit as a deposit of the purchased possession. (Eph 1:13-14), Jesus came to save sinners from their sins, everyone that has the spirit within are His.

Mt 1
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Since sin requires a blood sacrfice, it would be impossible to renew any person to repentance because even if they did repent "it would be impossible to SACRIFICE" the lamb of GOD who taketh the sin of the world" AGAIN!

Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


So, if you are one of HIS, he has given you the Holy Spirit to guide direct and enable your living on the earth the rest of your days, that you might please HIM.

This is not church membership nor any other type of perceived requirement ordained or otherwise that accomplishes what he has begun with you or anybody else.

So, I encourage you to stay in the WORD, that...

2 Tim 3
15 ".....from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."





Keep your eyes upon Jesus,



RICHARD

You cannot be brought back to repentance.

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Why? Because of a problem with God? Or is the problem with the "disbeliever"?

I posted the link, but it seems some have not clicked on it. So I shall copy the post that was linked:

For those that believe OSNAS how do you reconcile the belief that you can regain your salvation with this passage in Hebrews 6?? It says very clearly that if you fall way there will be no return!! You cannot continually RE-crucify Jesus. As the passage says, you would be continuing to subject him to the public digrace that he underwent for us already. Once was enough....the final be-all and end-all.

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I think we've discussed this one, but happy to discuss it again. That passage in Heb6 is most easily understood in the Greek. Specifically, in regard to verb TENSE. It is most correctly translated: "For in the case of those who have been once enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift and been bade partakers of the Holy Spirit..."
There are those who contend that THEY WERE ONLY SUPERFICIAL, not really SAVED. But can "lurkers, not-really-saved", can the UNSAVED be made partakers of the Holy Spirit??? Does the Holy Spirit indwell THOSE WHO ARE NOT SAVED??? "...those who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the powers of the age to come, and then ARE FALLING AWAY, it is impossible..." Impossible to what? Restore salvation? No! "For it is impossible to restore them to repentance, SINCE they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him up to contempt".

Let's deviate a moment from this Scripture, and read Hebrews 3:12-13: "Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, ...lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin".

What if it is possible to be deceived by sin, into UNBELIEF? Unbelief which causes the heart to be hardened? What then will be the attitude towards Christ? Only one attitude in that condition: contempt!

So, in Heb6, it simply says: "Those who were TRULY SAVED, and if they FALL AWAY (because of hardening by deceitful sin), it is impossible to restore them to repentance, SINCE they crucify Christ to themselves anew and hold Him up to contempt."

The "hinge", the "fulcrum" of this entire passage, is the word, SINCE. Which has the meaning of BECAUSE.

"They won't want to repent, WHILE they are falling away, BECAUSE they have disbelieved in Him and become contemptuous."

Thus, the entire problem in this passage, is with THEMSELVES. Their UNBELIEF.

But if their unbelief CEASES, other Scripture is clear that He will welcome them back, just as did the father with the Prodigal Son...

So, if you believe OSNAS, and you have committed any of the sins from the "lists" that have been argued exhaustively on this thread, then you have once and forever renounced your place in Christ for He will NOT be crucified again!

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Salvation is not "lost" by "committing any of the sins from the lists". Actually, salvation cannot be LOST at ALL. This is because of what salvation IS. Salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus. Why do Paul and Peter give us the lists? In harmony with what Jesus said. Salvation is CHRIST-IN-YOU; and therefore, he-(she)-who-has-Christ-inside, will CONSEQUENTIALLY do the good deeds.

If a Christian stumbles and "does a sin from the list", he does not necessarily fall-from-salvation. Remember, salvation cannot be LOST---it can only be REJECTED. If the person's heart becomes hardened, so that DOING sins from the "bad-list" become habitual, repetitive WITHOUT REPENTANCE, then Christ no longer abides in his heart (Gal2:20)---and salvation has been REJECTED.

Hebrews 6:6 (since they crucify to themselves Christ again), is identical with Heb10:26: "For if we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins..." Without repentance, Jesus' ONE death does not pay for sins. It is as if He need die again-and-again. Which cannot be---He died ONCE.

He died ONCE, to forgive our sin (not "sins")---all conditional upon our belief, and our repentance.

Our hope is sure and steadfast, an anchor for our soul---our hope is "what WE have FLED FOR refuge, in OUR LAYING AHOLD of the hope set before us".

WHAT is our "HOPE"? It's not a what, it's WHO!

Our HOPE is JESUS!!!

"According to the commandment of God our Savior, Christ Jesus, WHO IS OUR HOPE!" 1Tim1:1

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So I do not believe it is honest to say "they were never saved". THat would be saying, "unsaved people were PARTAKERS of the Holy Spirit". I don't think He indwells the unsaved. Likewise, to say "THEY NEVER LOST SALVATION! THIS is only NEGATIVE-HYPOTHETICAL---if they fall away (but everybody KNOWS they CANNOT"--- don't write into it what is not there. Hebrews has several verses that speak of "falling from the living God". It says, "in the case of those-who-WERE-saved, if they fall away, they won't WANT to repent". It is equally dishonest to say "it's only hypoTHETICAL, because they CANNOT be unsaved". It says what it says.

I've heard a similar argument used for Rev3:5. "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will NOT BLOT HIS NAME from the Book of Life". They say, "Oh it's only HYPOTHETICAL! 'Cause everyone KNOWS that names cannot be blotted! (How then, does one deal with children? Do not children who die, go to Heaven? (Matt19:14) Then, isn't EVERYONE born written into the Book of Life, and each ONLY has his (her) name removed, when he disbelieves???)

The question, is "which view takes Scripture clearly, and which view is a stretch"? Take 2Tim2:11-13: "For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we shall deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful."

There are two ways to "interpret" 2Tim2:11-13.
1. "If we endure, we shall reign with Him; if we deny Him He will also deny us, but we shall STILL REIGN WITH HIM, because even if WE are faithless nevertheless HE remains faithful FOR HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF!

2. "If we endure, we shall reign with Him; BUT if we deny Him He also will deny us, and we will NOT reign with Him! If we are faithless, even though we PERISH yet He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself".

Which "interpretation" is more Scriptural? And which is a stretch? In Matthew 10:32 Jesus says, "Everyone therefore who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in Heaven. But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in Heaven." Contextually, does Jesus really mean that those who He denies before the Father, WILL GO TO HEAVEN?

This is the value of reading Scriptures in context, with understanding from other Scriptures. If it all harmonizes, then there must be one understanding that harmonizes it all. We can believe in "OSAS", be it "predestined-election", or "carnal Christian", or "eternal security", UNTIL we read passage after passage after passage that speaks of "FALLING FROM SALVATION". Then we must search for the belief that harmonizes ALL of the Scripture...

To Tericl:

And in rejecting said salvation I would be incapable of repenting and coming back to Christ.

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Now THAT is the difference between OSAS, and OSNAS. If the OSNAS school of thought believed that, then we'd be in a world a-hurtin'.

God's ability to forgive is endless. All you have to do is express remorse!

If you truly believe that once a person, using Free Will, rejects God's gift of salvation, he or she can never return, then I can understand the vehement attitude of OSAS.

You say that people who have tasted the forgiveness of God won't leave. And it's my observation of life and the people around me that they can and do and ARE stupid enough to throw away something so precious. They miss their friends, they miss the way of life, they ALLOW temptation to enter the world around them. If you have someone extremely vigilant in keeping sin at bay, then you will find the person who is not willing to throw away God's gift. But people are LAZY. They don't want to constantly WORK at living the Christian life. They'll find excuses not to go to church. They'll slack off from studying God's word. They'll watch whatever garbage is on TV, simply because it's too much effort to find something DECENT, or even turn the TV OFF and do something productive. They'll hang around the people at work who tell off-color stories. They'll flirt with co-workers.

People are STUPID.

And after they come crashing back to earth, they can pick themselves up, wash themselves off from the filth of the world, and reconcile themselves to God.

The problem is this: suppose something completely unexpected happens, and they lose their lives during the screw-up cycle?


Peace be with you,
~VOW

BTW, in Heb6, the Greek for "impossible" means rather, "without power, weak".

Thus, "In the case of those who WERE true believers, and then fall away, it is without power to restore them to repentance, as they crucify to themselves Christ anew and hold Him in contempt."

The REASON they cannot be "restored to repentance/salvation", is the same REASON that they fell (are falling) away! If that REASON ceases, then so ceases their apostacy!

And it's my observation of life and the people around me that they can and do and ARE stupid enough to throw away something so precious.

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I think it is not just people who can be stupid. I had a dream, as clear as if I was awake. I was talking to a demon-possessed-man. I said, "I've always wanted to ask one of you something! I can't understand! Tell me---you had HEAVEN---and you THREW IT AWAY!

WHY???"

He stared at me, then his gaze lowered to the ground, then back to me and he said: "Well, no one ever said I was the brightest creature in the Universe..."