please respond to my other post

OreGal said:

I've yet to meet one parent who doesn't vaccinate who is not paranoid and I'm not sure why the dirt issue is coming up? Now, I haven't met you and you may truly be an exception to the rule but of the many moms I've met, they've led very sheltered lives. Again that's been my experience.

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Either that or they are into a range of "natural" medicine practices (homeopathy, herbal remedies, naturopathy, accupuncture, chiropractic, Chinese medicine, etc.) and are not happy with western medicine for whatever reason.

Well, for whatever its worth...I don't vaccinate and I have never given my kids any homeopathic, herbal remedies, or any of those other treatments. I am opposed to overusing modern medicine, but not in any way against legitimate treatment. I also feel like letting kids be kids (which includes playing outside in the dirt ) is one of the best ways to build the immune system. That and lots of fresh air and good food.

My kids hardly ever get sick either. In fact, I can count up their illness related dr. visits on one hand (that is for all four combined) So, I have to figure that we're doing something right.

OreGal said:

It is just easy to be anti-vaccine when you've never had to hold a mom who has lost her four year old son to a very preventable disease or work with children seriously disfigured from diseases we don't have to deal with here in the states. And, while moms in many developing nations pray for these vaccines, we can sit in the comfort of our homes knowing that because the majority of moms vaccinate in our country, chances are our children will be safe if we decide to stand on a soapbox and not vaccinate.

I also have a son with autism and I'm a scientist. No study linking vaccines with autism is reproducible. Some of us believe ultrasounds might be more likely but many of the same moms who believe vaccines are so awful would never want to believe that because they wanted their ultrasounds

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It is just easy to Pro-vaccine when you've never had to hold a child who was injured by these vaccines.

"EXCLUSIVE
By Rachel Ellis, Medical Correspondent

A key study repeatedly used by the Government to support the MMR vaccine
was wrongly carried out and gave inaccurate results, experts claimed
yesterday.

The Danish research, which examined the medical records of more than
half-a-million children born over eight years, concluded there was no link
between children given MMR and the onset of autism.

But fresh analysis of the data by four experts to be published this week in
the Journal of
American Physicians and Surgeons suggest there is a link.

The first new study, by Dr Samy Suissa, an epidemiologist at McGill
University,
Montreal, who looked at the same data the Danish doctors used, concludes
that children who received the triple jab were 45 per cent more likely to
develop autism than those who were not given it.

A second piece of research - by Dr Fouad Yazbak, an American paediatrician
- shows a 400
per cent rise in autism after the introduction of MMR in Denmark, even
after taking into account greater awareness of the condition.

8-29-04"

And as far as 3rd world countries wishing they had these vaccines, Africa has a polio vaccination rate on par with Europe, but have yet to make much progress in eradicating the disease.

Thirdly, I agree about the ultrasounds.

Joykins said:

Either that or they are into a range of "natural" medicine practices (homeopathy, herbal remedies, naturopathy, accupuncture, chiropractic, Chinese medicine, etc.) and are not happy with western medicine for whatever reason.

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Something wrong with that?

DieHappy said:

It is just easy to Pro-vaccine when you've never had to hold a child who was injured by these vaccines.

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Actually both my daughter and I have had adverse reactions to vaccines. I had a pretty severe one before I went to work in a third world country and my daughter is very allergic to eggs.

I am very familiar with many adverse cases here in the U.S. and I am very familiar with the grass roots campaign to convince moms their child's ailments stem from vaccines. So many well-meaning (and uneducated) moms have tried to convince me my son's autism stems from vaccines but I know better.

I can guarantee I've seen more children die who would have lived had they been vaccinated than you (generic 'you' here) have seen die from being vaccinated.

I also know that 99% of the folks who are anti-vaccine haven't seen the things I have and experienced what I have and will stay anti-vaccine until they either venture out into the world or we have an epidemic here (which I am convinced is not far off).

C'est la vie.

OreGal said:

I can guarantee I've seen more children die who would have lived had they been vaccinated

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Specious at best.
"
The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous and ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization....Much of what you have been led to believe about immunizations simply isn't true...if I were to follow my deep convictions...I would urge you to reject all inoculations for your child.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease....If immunizations were responsible for the disappearance of these diseases in the United States, one must ask why they disappeared simultaneously in Europe, where mass immunizations did not take place. (Mendelsohn, R., How to Raise A Healthy Child...In Spite of Your Doctor. Ballantine Books/New York 1984. p.20.)"

"The combined death rate from scarlet fever, diphtheria, whooping cough, and measles among children up to fifteen shows that nearly 90 percent of the total decline in mortality between 1860 and 1965 had occurred before the introduction of antibiotics and widespread immunization. In part this recession may be attributed to improved housing and to a decrease in the virulence of micro-organisms, but by far the most important factor was a higher host-resistance due to better nutrition. In poor countries today, diarrhea and upper-respiratory-tract infections occur more frequently, last longer, and lead to higher mortality where nutrition is poor, no matter how much or how little medical care is available. (Medical Nemesis by Ivan Illich, Bantam Books, Toronto/New York/London.1976 pp. 6-7.)"

I'm very curious why you're so quick to reject vaccination as the cause of your son's autism, but may be willing to embrace ultrasound. There's far fewer causal links to ultrasound altering cell function.

Joykins said:

Either that or they are into a range of "natural" medicine practices (homeopathy, herbal remedies, naturopathy, accupuncture, chiropractic, Chinese medicine, etc.) and are not happy with western medicine for whatever reason.

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I just wanted to comment on this ... I have held off for a couple of days, but I'm still over the comment. Why does it seemed assumed that Christians need to be happy subscribers to Western medicine, including but not limited to, vaccinations? Just because a doctor or pharma company says it's good for you, does that automatically mean that you must do what they say? Personally, I see "natural" medicine very in line with God's creation. I said elsewhere and I'll post it here again. He created us and nature to coexist. There were no "doctors" or mass drugs back in Biblical times, yet the Israelites, who for the most part followed God's "prescription" for life were quite hardy and healthy people. Essential oils and herbs were a large part of their daily lives - something that in today's day and age is considered outside the "normal" realm of "Western" medicine. Personally I see much of what is dished out in Western medicine a way to make money. Just watch TV for a couple of hours and see how many drug commercials you see. They try to sell us a "cure" for everything! I honestly believe if we live a bit more the way God has intended us to (in terms of what we eat and how we ultimately treat our bodies), we'll need much less of this "Westernized" medicine. Here's what God's Word says about "natural" medicine:

Ezekiel 47:12 said:

Along the band of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine.(Emphasis mine.)

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Again, it seems to be a thought within this thread that Christian's are to use Western medicine and find a disdain for anything "natural". I feel that "natural" medicine, including herbs, homeopathy, and naturopathy, are a way of tapping into the amazing wealth of healing God has provided us with His very own creation.

MyLittleWonders, while I truly appreciate your points, that verse isn't indicating use of natural medicine.....

other than that I'm staying out of this!

Vaccinations only work through herd immunization. That is to say, my child is only safe when yours and most everyone else's is immunized. Yours is protected because of that herd immunization, but once enough people decide not to participate, it will open the door for an epidemic.

The risk of that is much higher than the risk of getting autism, even if that link were established which it isn't. As a parent you must weigh the risks. However, the reason people are offended that Christians wouldn't immunize is because it is a selfish leaching off the system without the willingness to partake in the risks.

You have a duty to protect other people's children too. (As a Christian)

Actually, I am not selfishly leaching off the system by not vaccinating my children. I am taking their health into my own hands. There is a big difference. Not once, in our research on why not to vaccinate, have I thought, well, my kids are safe because every one else has their children vaccinated. My thoughts have been, how can I keep my child's immune system operating at it's peak level. How can I keep my child's life as free from toxins and poisons as possible. How can I care for my child to make sure that their system is strong enough to keep them well. I do not subscribe to Western medicine being the "god" that doctors and the media make it out to be. I see there is great wisdom to be learned through more unorthodox ways of looking at health and healing. I do not subscribe to the notion that I must vaccinate my children because I am unselfishly protecting the world's children. Please, give me Scripture that shows I must inject my children with poisons and toxins in order to protect someone else's children.

Medicine is toxic at some level no matter what the origin, western or other. Do you not give your children tylenol because you know that it builds up in their liver and can cause damage, and so let them suffer in pain when sick? Everything around us contains toxins, and on the whole, we do fine in spite of that.

You say you are protecting your childrens immune systems, but do you really trust that to protect them against polio or hepatitis when you move your family to the slums of India or Africa? If you have any qualms about doing that safely, then you *are* leaching off the preventative efforts of others here.

As to scripture, I believe "Love your neighbor as yourself" applies.

Ruhama said:

Vaccinations only work through herd immunization. That is to say, my child is only safe when yours and most everyone else's is immunized. Yours is protected because of that herd immunization, but once enough people decide not to participate, it will open the door for an epidemic.

The risk of that is much higher than the risk of getting autism, even if that link were established which it isn't. As a parent you must weigh the risks. However, the reason people are offended that Christians wouldn't immunize is because it is a selfish leaching off the system without the willingness to partake in the risks.

You have a duty to protect other people's children too. (As a Christian)

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This is completely true and exactly what I said in the other thread originally... by taking a risk on my son I protect other people's children with his vaccinations and I think that's really wrong... but again.... I said I wouldn't get involved... oops

But keep in mind that the risk you'd take on your own son is also a lot higher by not vaccinating.

Also consider that they take risks to protect yours.

Ruhama said:

Vaccinations only work through herd immunization. That is to say, my child is only safe when yours and most everyone else's is immunized. Yours is protected because of that herd immunization, but once enough people decide not to participate, it will open the door for an epidemic.

The risk of that is much higher than the risk of getting autism, even if that link were established which it isn't. As a parent you must weigh the risks. However, the reason people are offended that Christians wouldn't immunize is because it is a selfish leaching off the system without the willingness to partake in the risks.

You have a duty to protect other people's children too. (As a Christian)

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Good grief.
Herd Immunity - Your child is a danger to the community?

Has anyone ever said to you, "The reason why your non-immunized kid is safe is because everyone else is immunized" or "Your non-immunized kid is endangering other children"?

Herd immunity is a myth. If it worked then why do we see epidemics in highly vaccinated populations? The theory of herd immunity is that if 85% of the population has immunity then everyone else is protected from an epidemic. Well, look at how well herd immunity works:

In 1984, 27 cases of measles were reported at a high school in Waltham, MA. Over 98% of the students had documentary proof of vaccination (Nkowane B, et al. American Journal of Public Health. 1987;77:434-438.).

In 1985, 157 cases were reported over a 3-month period in Corpus Christi, Texas, and the surrounding Nueces County, despite a vaccination rate of over 99% and significant antibody levels in over 95% (Gustafson T, et al. Measles outbreak in a fully immunized secondary-school population. New England Journal of Medicine. 1987;316:771-774.).

In 1989, an Illinois high school with vaccination records for 99.7% of the students reported 69 cases over a 3-week period (Chen R, et al. American Journal of Epidemiology. 1989;129:17382.).

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There are reports of epidemics in 100% vaccinated populations. There's no proof the concept of herd immunity occurs in vaccinated populations. The concept of herd immunity, formulated in the early 1900s, was based on natural not artificial immunity (i.e. people getting the disease naturally and having lifelong immunity).


At the recent 41st Annual Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy in Atlanta doctors reported a chicken pox outbreak in a day care center in NH that began with a child who had been vaccinated. All this time MDs believed that if a kid was vaccinated and got the disease he/she couldn't pass it on to others. In this study vaccine effectiveness was 40% (prior studies said the vaccine was 71% to 91% effective-who paid for that research?).


My responsibility as a Christian?!?! Scripture, please!

Herd immunity is a myth. If it worked then why do we see epidemics in highly vaccinated populations? The theory of herd immunity is that if 85% of the population has immunity then everyone else is protected from an epidemic. Well, look at how well herd immunity works:

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I have seen vaccinations work or rather not work, just as is described in these cases. There was an outbreak of chicken pox in the kids in our church and all the immunized kids (about 15-20 kids) got them with the exception of one little boy who was not exposed . The interesting thing was that several of us with unimmunized kids tried to get our kids to get the chicken pox by repeatedly exposing them. Of the unimmunized kids that were exposed only a few actually caught the disease. About 6-8 unimmunized kids never did get them even after lots of exposure.
Then a few years later after moving to a new place, we saw the same thing happen again in our new church. It seems as if the immunization really doesn't prevent the kids from getting chicken pox.

Ruhama said:

But keep in mind that the risk you'd take on your own son is also a lot higher by not vaccinating.

Also consider that they take risks to protect yours.

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Uhhh. I vaccinated my son.

Leanna said:

Uhhh. I vaccinated my son.

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I think she just misquoted you ... I have a feeling she was referring to me.

Lest anyone think I was trying to slam on alternative medicine...

I think it would be a great idea if we could hold natural and other alternative medical therapies to the same clinical testing / trials standards that we hold "Western" medicines. Unfortunately there are financial disincentives to doing this. It would be very useful to open up more information and therapies than those which drug companies can get patents on.

Unfortunately it has not been done and I don't feel like my family (or children) deserve to be guinea pigs for folk medicine or homeopathy (water) unless there is no other scientifically substantiated choice. Certainly there are a lot of areas where Western medicine does not seem to help, and things like accupuncture do.

At any rate, to me this is a science/health issue and not a "religious" one--although I still see vaccination a double public/private good.

Lest anyone think I'm not pragmantic (and that will make my wife laugh really hard), we actually gave our son the DTaP jab last week. There's a risk benefit ratio to be worked out on everything. We're having construction done, so the risk of tetanus went up. We still won't have MMR because the risk of complications from the jab are more numerous than the risk of getting any of the three diseases.

Joykins, I agree that it would be nice to have "scientific" studies done on alternative medicine, but, besides funding, there's another huge issue. The gold standard of epidemiology is double blind, placebo controlled. You can't really do double blind when you're testing chiropractic or accupunture. For herbs and vitamins the main problem is funding, because the vast majority of vitamin studies show success on a group of 10 or 12. No-one is willing to fund a 2000 member study.
So I would say, look in the PDR. Every single drug has a multitude of side effects. You say you don't want your children to be guinea pigs so you'll subject to them to two pages of side effects. At the very worst, most alternatives will be a waste of money. There are no downsides to most of them besides they might not work. But if they do, how much better off will you be?