Something About Mary

Mary was a mortal, all mortals fight each day with the evil inclination within, and while it IS possible to overcome it, there is not a single person who has not messed up at some point. However G-d says "though your sins be red as scarlet I shall wash them white as wool", by repenting (aka teshuvah) it is possible to become sinless, as if the sin had never even happened.

Mary the mother of Moshiach Yeshua is indeed to be commended, but Yeshua rebuked her several times for misunderstanding or simply forgetting that he had a role to play. Another thing that always confused me about Mary is that everyone seems to say shes from the house of David when theres no geneology for her to show that, not to forget that her sister Elizibeth married the high priest which would mean that she would have to be a Levite. It was Yosef who was from the house of David.

Anyway Im going off topic lol. Im not quite sure what to answer becuase Im not wuite sure what your asking, do you believe Mary was in some way divine?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Are you refering to the doctrine of original sin? (meaning that Yeshua wouldn't be sinless unless he was born to a sinless person?) I don't buy that. (It will take too long to explain)

Yeshua's humanity was "sinless" because He was conceived w/o the agency of a human man - no men are not evil and women pure (ok, well maybe just a leettle!) but it is the man (who had the responsibility and authority in Gan Eden) through the "spiritual sin nature" is passed. Every human, including Miriam, ever born - except Yeshua - was born with the sin nature and had to battle it.

Miriam is to be respected - for a young girl to submit to pregnancy without a husband was a very brave thing to do - she risked the very real possibility of stoning. And as a very popular seasonal song suggests - Yosef took on a rather daunting and fearful task, raising G-d's son.

Yeshua "was tempted in all ways such as we are" - and to be tempted there must have been the potential for satiation, else it is no temptation. Like saying a man who has no sense of smell or taste is tempted walking by a bakery - not.

Shalom
Henaynei

Christy4Christ said:

How does everyone here feel about Mary? There is a big battle between Protestants and Catholics as to whether she was a perpetual virgin or not. There is also a couple of different opinions on whether she was born sinless.

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The Virgin birth in itself is quite difficult since there was no precedent

in Jewish history and the Law does not allow such.

The Messiah's words are best for He said... who is my mother?

My believers are my mother etc

Christy4Christ said:

How does everyone here feel about Mary? There is a big battle between Protestants and Catholics as to whether she was a perpetual virgin or not. There is also a couple of different opinions on whether she was born sinless.
I feel she would have had to have been to be the mother of Jesus. How could a sinful woman have carried him in her womb?

**note** actually I shouldn't say Protestants because Luther and Calvin both believed in her divinty and were both devoted to her. I am not quite sure who actually started taking issue with the adoration of her.


Just wondering what your opinion of her is?

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Only one lived who was without sin and his name is Y'shua!
To say that his mother was divine or sinless is somewhat offensive.
Nor is she to be worshiped - admired perhaps, used as an example of
what a Godly womman is to be sure.

With out getting into the appologetics of this too deeply the adoration and worship
of Miriam is a fairly late thing only in the past few hundred years or so and additional theology surrounding her is latter yet still (Her bodily asumption into heaven?)

These notions simply are not found in scripture. And I am sorry to say that it is more pagan infulence surrounding the love if Ishtar and the Moon goddess.

Y'shua did not hate nor dishonor his earthly mother. His statement that those who would follow him would be his mother and his brothers tied in to the later teaching of the "body" of beleivers. Had he not reveiled his own divinity to his mom and thus denied her his atonement would he have loved and honored her?

Be Blessed


Pastor George

Christy4Christ--

Christy4Christ said:

How does everyone here feel about Mary? There is a big battle between Protestants and Catholics as to whether she was a perpetual virgin or not.

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We know that Miriam [Mary] could not have been a perpetual virgin, because the Bible makes mention of the brothers and sisters of Yeshua. A good concordance will be able to help you search out these verses.

And as for her being divine and sinless -- the Bible makes no such claim about her. She is presented as an ordinary human being, who also became a disciple of her Son, Yeshua the Messiah.

Blessings.
Wanda

Christy4Christ--

Christy4Christ said:

It is my understanding that Mary was from the house of David through her marriage to Joseph.

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Miriam [Mary] was from the House of David in her own right. There are two genealogies for Yeshua in the Gospels. One is found in the Gospel of Matthew, the other in Luke. Scholars attribute one genealogy to Yosef, and the other to Miriam. As you can see, if you check them out, they both name David as an ancestor.

Blessings.
Wanda

Catholics will argue that "brothers and sisters" refers to close kin, more like cousins, not to actual blood brothers and sisters (IE: Mary's offspring).

However one thing I always found interesting is that the physical act of marriage, and attempting procreation at least, is a blessing and a right in Jewish law (no?), and Mary and Joseph would have certainly engaged in marital sexual union, as a part of legal marriage. Even according to NT teaching, a husband and wife must not refrain from marital sex except by mutual agreement and FOR A TIME only, for prayer and fasting etc.

Some claim that Joseph was very old by the time he married Mary, hence his need for a physical relationship would have been diminished, etc. as a way of trying to explain away how reasonable it would be to assume Joseph and Mary never had sexual relations... but if he was so old as to not be interested in the physical act of marriage, he would likely not have been a terribly good candidate for journeying to Egypt and then Nazareth with the young babe and His mother, as well as providing for them and their welfare. Just a thought.

Really, anyone looking into the concept of Mary's supposed perpetual virginity can find it's origins deeply rooted in gnosticism and what not, and it certainly is not supported by the Bible Itself.

I echo the respectful admiration for Miriam that others have expressed on this thread... she was a human woman who embraced a divine calling. But she is not Divine, and she is not a good many things I was taught to believe about her as a Roman catholic.

Just my .36

Zemirah said:

However one thing I always found interesting is that the physical act of marriage, and attempting procreation at least, is a blessing and a right in Jewish law (no?), and Mary and Joseph would have certainly engaged in marital sexual union, as a part of legal marriage. Even according to NT teaching, a husband and wife must not refrain from marital sex except by mutual agreement and FOR A TIME only, for prayer and fasting etc.

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If my understanding of Jewish custom of the time is correct when the Bible says that Joeseph and Mary were betrothed it was a much more complex arangement that our modern day engagement.

Mirian would most likely have cohabitated with Yousef under the same roof but they would not NOT have had relations with one another durring this time. To be married would be the point that they were both officially married (no longer betrothed) and that the marriage was then consumated.

My understanding is that BOTH acts would have to occur 'the public marriage ceremony' AND 'the physical consumation' for them to have been considered "married"

This did not make Miriam less righteous or wonderful in G-ds eyes. He himself would be the blessing in the marriage as he should be in all of our marriages. Miriams chastity before the birth of Y'shua is with out debate. But afterwards the Bible tells a very different tale!

PG

Zemirah said:

Mary and Joseph would have certainly engaged in marital sexual union, as a part of legal marriage.

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I should clarify -- I meant after Yeshua's birth. Just in case that came out confusing...

Hello, everyone.

I am not here to debate, but to share two very important points.

1) The Catholic Church does not teach, nor never has, that Mary is divine.
(Repeat this aloud, please, so that your ears may actually hear it.)

2) To say that the Bible does not present evidence that Mary was Ever-Virgin, is to call the Biblical scholar Jerome an idiot (Read online "Against Helvidius"); and is to call other Early Church Fathers dopes.

Again, I am not here to debate the issue of Mary's Virginity.
I have presented the truth of the Catholic Church, and the implication if one believes that the Bible does not support Mary as Ever-Virgin.

You may believe what you wish and I will not debate you.

Dopes, not necessarily. Humans influenced by the widespread and common pagan doctrines of their day and perhaps in error in some of their understandings of the things of G-d? Certainly possible .

And, I'll try to refrain from discussing the divine attributes of Mary as asserted by the RCC, and also Mary-worship which is hoped to be passed off as "honor"... as I feel that is really OT to the OP.

Sitting on my hands... Shalom

~Z~

The geneology in Luke never even mentions Mary, so how could it be her geneology? And like I said, if she was the sister of someone who married the High Priest then she must have been from the tribe of Levi, that cant be argued unless someone claims that the author of the Brit Hadasha somehow isnt aware of Jewish custom. And no marrying Joseph doesnt take away away from her tribal descent. But the childs tribal descent is always measured by what the fathers is, so Yosef Yeshua's father was from the line of David.

Obviously too that Mary didnt stay a virgin, Yeshua did have brothers ya know.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

I think that this extra-devotion for Mariam comes from a search for a mother figure. That is why the pagans had this mother godess that was too strainge to completely forget. I have nothing against people who admire biblical heros. I knew a "protestant" messianic Jew, who came to believe in Yeshua by visiting catholic churches. For her, mariam is a biblical hero who is espeacially special to her, just like Joseph in the OT is special to me, and other christians might find some missionairy who really searved God as special to them.


I did hear once an interview with a catholic woman who was trying to get mariam's devinity voted in the vatican. I hope the pope listens more to God on this than to the arguments I heard...

Pray4Isrel said:

1. Your sarcastic remark about "repeating this out loud so your ears may actually hear it" is offensive to all of us in this forum who have been maturely discussing this topic.

2. No one called anyone idiots or dopes.

I am now reminding you as the Administrator of the Messianic Forum to refrain from such remarks.

Thank You for your compliance,
Pray4Isrel
Administrator

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I apologize if my remark offended, and I will certainly comply.

Do realize that I wish it known that my Catholic faith does not teach that Mary is divine, and I find offense from those who state otherwise. There is a forum to discuss the Catholic faith, and I invite all there to discuss what the Catholic DOES teach about Mary to post on OBOB.

Again, I apologize if in my zeal to defend my faith, my remark style was perceived as offensive.

KennySe said:

I apologize if my remark offended, and I will certainly comply.

Do realize that I wish it known that my Catholic faith does not teach that Mary is divine, and I find offense from those who state otherwise. There is a forum to discuss the Catholic faith, and I invite all there to discuss what the Catholic DOES teach about Mary to post on OBOB.

Again, I apologize if in my zeal to defend my faith, my remark style was perceived as offensive.

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Sorry too Kenny I was the one who repeated the word "divine" from the very first person who spoke and of course they should not be considered to be the spokesperson for the church of Rome.

Here is what I learned today about the word "divine"

di·vine ([font=verdana,sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (d -v n )
adj. di·vin·er, di·vin·est

1. 1. Having the nature of or being a deity.
   2. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation.
   3. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.
2. Superhuman; godlike.
3. 1. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto.
   2. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball.
4. Heavenly; perfect.

Now I clould be wrong here but I could have sworn I heard some thing about "Holy Mary mother of God pray for us, sinners"

I think that might be were we get confused because "holy" refers to some thing "godlike" as it says in # 2 of the definition.


blessings

PG

not exactly....HaShem says in Isaiah that his people Israel are holy, they are set apart from all the nations and they are his.

Still there almost does seem to be a certain factor of idolitary towards mary, statues of her, and she is included in prayer and indeed, has prayers that are directed TO her. Yeshua himself said all prayers must be to G-d.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents here... Myriam is to be:

1 -Respected (she gave birth to AND raised Messiah);

2 - Admired (she was one of G-d's most faithful servants);

3 - Used as an example (we can always learn from G-dly people);


According to (most) Messianics, however, she:

1 - Should not be venerated (though we understand the Catholic explanation of the difference between to venerate and to worship, we believe that in practical terms, that difference gets so blurry that it becomes dangerous)

2 - Should not receive prayer (we were taught to pray to the Father through Yeshua)

3 - Should not have an icon before which one should bow (Exodus 20)

4 - Had other children (there is scriptural reference for that and the argument that they were actually cousins is very hard to be defended)

5 - Sinned (scripture states everyone has sinned - only Yeshua was sinless because He was/is HaShem incarnated)

6 - Cannot a mediator between us and Messiah (lack of scriptural support)


I guess that pretty much sums it up. Then again, we do respect Catholics because everyone is free to have their own faith.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion