How are we saved?

How Does a man attain eternal life?

  • Selected by God from the dawn of creation

  • Love God, Love thy neighbor, keep the commandments

  • Accept Jesus as your personal savior

  • Obey the Law, keep pure

  • Receive absolution shortly before you die

  • Other


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PaladinValer

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Other.

Option 1 is too vague. Single predestination is orthodox, yet double predestination makes God a hypocrite. We are all predestined for heaven, yet there is something more to do with it.

Option 2 is a part of it. Works are an essential part of our salvation, as per the famous line in the Catholic Letter of St. James to all Christians, chapter 2. Yet even in this letter, the author stresses that works alone aren't enough.

Option 3 is a part of it as well. Faith is an essential part of our salvation. Yet faith without works is dead.

Option 4 is the Judaizer heresy.

Option 5 is a part of it as well. We receive Grace through not just faith and works, but through the Sacraments and Sacramentals. Yet a person could literally go through all seven Sacraments and through as many Sacramentals as humanly possible and not be Judged worthy of heaven.

I feel the correct answer is that we are saved, we are in the process of being saved, and we hope to be saved. We are saved because God predestined all to be saved. We are in the process of being saved because we must work with the Holy Spirit in cooperation to live a holy life worthy of salvation. We hope to be saved because we cannot know God's Mind, so we must strive to do the best we can to cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

God's Grace is how we are saved. We receive this Grace through faith, through works, through the Sacraments and Sacramentals, and through being chosen first by God before we were even born. If God wishes to save us, we are saved, no matter who we are.
 
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nathanel

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Luke chapter 10:
"25Behold, a certain teacher of [G-d's instructions] stood up and tested him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26He said to him, “What is written in [G-d's instructions]? How do you read it?”
27He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”
 
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PaladinValer

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nathanel said:
Luke chapter 10:
"25Behold, a certain teacher of [G-d's instructions] stood up and tested him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26He said to him, “What is written in [G-d's instructions]? How do you read it?”
27He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

The Law in what way?

How the Jews took it? Or how Jesus took it?

Reread your St. Paul. The Law was never correctly followed until Jesus came by. There is but one advantage of the Jew and that is the Law, but they sqandered it because they couldn't follow it the way God wanted them too.

Not the letter of the Law but the spirit of the Law.

So Fallacy of Equivocation.
 
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nathanel

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PaladinValer said:
The Law in what way?

Or put another way "How do you read it?"

If you go back and reread the discourse between the sage and Jesus you will see that Jesus already commended him for answering that question "correctly".

But maybe your question is with the "how" of implementing [G-d's instructions]. If so then it should be instructive to continue reading what Jesus had to say following that very issue as raised by the sage:

30And Jesus answering said, "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. " 31"And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. " 32"And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. " 33"But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, " 34"And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. " 35"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. " 36"Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? " 37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, "Go, and do thou likewise.
 
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apenman

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Christ asks the question what are the greatest commands, and the correct answer is love God and love neigbour, but the law cannot be fulfilled because it comes with a curse. So, Christ fulfills the law, nails it to the cross, and establishes the law of Christ which is "love one another". This "new" law is the sum of the other two, it is both rolled into one, and the proof of loving God becomes, "when you have done it to the least of one of these, you have done it to me".
 
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PaladinValer

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nathanel said:
Or put another way "How do you read it?"

If you go back and reread the discourse between the sage and Jesus you will see that Jesus already answered commended him for answering that question "correctly".

But maybe your question is with the "how" of implementing [G-d's instructions]. If so then it should be instructive to continue reading what Jesus had to say following that very issue as raised by the sage:

The Law is still not necessary. The only Commandments that matter are the two Jesus gave.
 
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nathanel

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PaladinValer said:
The Law is still not necessary. The only Commandments that matter are the two Jesus gave.
Interesting that these are the only two "instructions" that I ever raised. Maybe you were looking for more of an opportunity to promote your idea that "the Law is still not necessary", but if so, you imposed that opportunity in response to my post, as I made no mention of the "The Law being necessary", but only those "instructions" G-d gave that the sage correctly understood to be the answer to the question. Sorry.
 
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The Thadman

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PaladinValer said:
The Law is still not necessary. The only Commandments that matter are the two Jesus gave.

So then similarly, let's say that a father's teaching his kid how to drive. "Ok, son, the two things you need to remember are always check your mirrors, and always keep your eyes on the road."

Does this mean that all of the traffic laws and parking laws are not necessary or should be ignored?

This was not a unique teaching of Jesus. Why did all of the other Rabbis (both before and after Jesus) that claimed that those were the two most important commandments were never misunderstood to mean that "these are the only two commandments that matter" and that "the Torah is not necessary"?

The Torah may hang upon these two, but they are certainly not "all she wrote" :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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The Thadman

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apenman said:
Christ asks the question what are the greatest commands, and the correct answer is love God and love neigbour,

Yep, these are Jesus' words :)

but the law cannot be fulfilled because it comes with a curse.

These are not Jesus' words :)

So, Christ fulfills the law, nails it to the cross, and establishes the law of Christ which is "love one another".

Fulfilling the Torah so you don't have to? Non sequitur :) For example, with US law, how does one "fulfill" a parking ticket?

This "new" law is the sum of the other two, it is both rolled into one, and the proof of loving God becomes, "when you have done it to the least of one of these, you have done it to me".

Jesus said he came -not- to destroy the Torah (Law). Not ONE jot or tittle would change until -all- happens.

Where is the second coming? Where is every knee bowing to Jesus? Where is the apocalypse?

Not all has occured. :)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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The Thadman

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Additionally, how could Jesus have fulfilled all of the Torah? He was not a woman. He was not a gentile. He was not a Levite. The Torah has specific commands for specific people. One person is incapable of fulfilling -all- of it (be it myself, you, OR Jesus); however, one person is completely capable of fulfilling their part of it.

Deuteronomy 30
11 For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? 14 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth, and in your heart, that you may do it.
 
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apenman

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The Thadman said:
These are not Jesus' words :)
They are the words of Paul & James.


The Thadman said:
Fulfilling the Torah so you don't have to? Non sequitur :) For example, with US law, how does one "fulfill" a parking ticket?
Christ fulfilled the law, in the sense that he did not violate the law, thus making him an unblemished sacrifice.


The Thadman said:
Jesus said he came -not- to destroy the Torah (Law). Not ONE jot or tittle would change until -all- happens.

Where is the second coming? Where is every knee bowing to Jesus? Where is the apocalypse?

Not all has occured. :)
From a perspective outside of time, all things have indeed occured.
 
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The Thadman

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Christ fulfilled the law, in the sense that he did not violate the law, thus making him an unblemished sacrifice.

Human beings are not acceptable sacrifices as we are ritually unclean animals. To sacrifice a human would be as acceptable as sacrificing a pig or a cougar. :)

With the idea of Jesus being a literal sacrifice for everyone's sins, it is especially in contradiction of Scripture for we are NOT to bear sins on behalf of others.

From a perspective outside of time, all things have indeed occured.

If that's the case then there is no need for the Torah -or- Jesus.

The long and the short of it, in my opinion, is that Jesus said a whole bunch of things would happen. They have yet to, and until all of those things come to pass, the Torah's still the rule of the People of God. Those who teach the Torah and tell others to do so will be called the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, and those who teach against it will be called the least. This is attributed to him in the Gospel of Matthew.

How can one, with a plain reading of the text, harmonize such a thing to be the complete opposite of what it says?

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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apenman

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The Thadman said:
How can one, with a plain reading of the text, harmonize such a thing to be the complete opposite of what it says?
If one conducts a plain reading of the text one would see that Christ is the "lamb slain from the creation of the world". Thus, it is only the "complete opposite of what it says" if we leave out some of the text.
 
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The Thadman

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apenman said:
If one conducts a plain reading of the text one would see that Christ is the "lamb slain from the creation of the world". Thus, it is only the "complete opposite of what it says" if we leave out some of the text.

From which of Jesus' sayings? :)

If not from Jesus' words, then please post the pericope where this is stated so we can discuss or spawn another thread for discussion?

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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The Thadman

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apenman said:
Well, while I respect your beliefs, I do not agree with your conclusions, so we should just leave it at that.

Are we not on a messageboard to discuss beliefs and theology?

If your intent was not to discuss, then our exchange should not have began in the first place, or your opening statement to me should have stated that intent. :)

As you wish,
-Steve-o
 
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apenman

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The Thadman said:
Are we not on a messageboard to discuss beliefs and theology?

If your intent was not to discuss, then our exchange should not have began in the first place, or your opening statement to me should have stated that intent. :)

As you wish,
-Steve-o
We previously had an indepth discussion about where this is heading. The issue is do we have that same discussion over and over again. I am sensetive to it, because I am sensitive to your beliefs, trying always to be respectful.
 
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apenman

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The Thadman said:
From which of Jesus' sayings? :)

If not from Jesus' words, then please post the pericope where this is stated so we can discuss or spawn another thread for discussion?

Peace!
-Steve-o
It isn't an issue of just using what Jesus stated. When you talk about a "reading of the text", my definition of the text, the OT & NT, is different from yours.

Anyway, here is the text:

Revelation 13:8, "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (NIV)
 
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