Gods Sabbath Day (2)

Cliff2 · Jul 24, 2005

visionary said:
could you repeat that...what was the elder doing/saying?

The head elder took the service and spoke on what part works play in the plan of salvation.

Cliff2 · Jul 24, 2005

None

Eph. 2:8,9

Cliff2 · Jul 29, 2005

Happy Sabbath

If you go onto 3ABN now you will hear Doug Bathchelor taking the Sabbath School Lesson for this week.

It will be repeated a numbers of times during the next few days.

EdmundBlackadderTheThird · Jul 30, 2005

Cliff2 said:
I know this small book has sealed the issue in many peoples minds about the Sabbath. The debate has gone once a person realizes whren and where the change came from.

Cliff the debate isn't gone at all. All you can prove from scripture is that we are not to work on sabbath. You cannot prove worship being mandated on a specific day for anyone under the new convenant. Even the SDA sabbath keeping isn't Biblical since you are more than willing to profit off of the "sin" of others. You are willing to use electricity which causes people to work. Drive which causes people to work. Use the internet which causes people to work. Nowhere in scripture is there any binding day on the Gentile or anyone under the New Covenant for a day of worship. The booklet refered to would have one accept that the old law is binding on Christians today. You can prove, using the ten commandments that we should not work on the sabbath but you cannot prove the ten commandments binding on the believer under the new covenant via scripture. But given that you believe that they are all that you can prove is that we should not work on the sabbath. You cannot prove that the sabbath is the day we should worship our Lord.

Cliff2 · Jul 30, 2005

flesh99 said:
Cliff the debate isn't gone at all. All you can prove from scripture is that we are not to work on sabbath. You cannot prove worship being mandated on a specific day for anyone under the new convenant. Even the SDA sabbath keeping isn't Biblical since you are more than willing to profit off of the "sin" of others. You are willing to use electricity which causes people to work. Drive which causes people to work. Use the internet which causes people to work. Nowhere in scripture is there any binding day on the Gentile or anyone under the New Covenant for a day of worship. The booklet refered to would have one accept that the old law is binding on Christians today. You can prove, using the ten commandments that we should not work on the sabbath but you cannot prove the ten commandments binding on the believer under the new covenant via scripture. But given that you believe that they are all that you can prove is that we should not work on the sabbath. You cannot prove that the sabbath is the day we should worship our Lord.

You say we cannot prove that the Sabbath is the day we should worship on, all we can prove is that we should not work on that day.

I do not agree with you, but for the sake of the arguement I will.

What we have shown is much more than you can say for Sunday.

You cannot show that Sunday is a day we should not work on. You cannot show Sunday as being holy.

So even if you take what we can show and what you cannot show, the 7th day Sabbath is so far ahead.

SearchingSDA · Jul 30, 2005

.

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Saturday or Sunday?[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is that our only choice?[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font][font=Times New Roman, Times, serif][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](by Sam Pestes)[/font][/font]

This question has periodically needled the Christian community. In the mid 1840s the observance of Sunday, which had replaced Saturday as the day for worship in most of Christendom, was challenged by a group in the United States, known as the Millerites. Originally that group taught that Christ would return to earth in October of 1844. When that date passed uneventfully, they set about to vindicate themselves by suggesting that the date was right, but they had simply misunderstood what happened at that time.

One of the doctrines which sprang out of the confusion, was a renewed emphasis on the observance of the 10 commandments, and especially the 4th commandment which stressed the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath. They pointed out that the commandment does not give mankind the option of selecting any other day of the week to observe as the Sabbath. This spawned a number of Sabbath-keeping churches.

The 4th commandment specifically decreed that the 7th day of the week was the divinely designated Sabbath day given to Israel as a holy day. Historically, there is no question that Saturday has always been the 7th day of the week. So, by what authority do Christians today presume to regard Sunday as the designated day for worship? Or is the Sabbath as given to Israel still binding on Christians? Why, or why not?

To clear away the confusion, one must begin at the beginning, and understand the foundation upon which any doctrine is based.

First question: what was the original Sabbath that God gave to Mr. and Mrs. Adam? Second question: was the Sabbath of the 4th commandment the same as the original Edenic Sabbath? If not, in what way did it differ?

You will notice, as you read the account of creation in Genesis chapter one, that the events of each creation day were punctuated with a statement which said, "And there was evening and there was morning, one day". Then , "And there was evening and there was morning a second day", and so on until the works of creation were completed, and the Bible reads, "And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good suitable, pleasant and He approved it completely. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day". (Amp) Emphasis supplied.

But it does not say the same about the next (7th) day! It does not say that "There was evening and there was morning, a seventh day". Why not? Why the change in pattern?

Why was the Sabbath not bordered by an evening and a morning as were the other days?

Note: God "rested" or ceased His work after the 6th day was over, because His work of creating the world was completed. Because it was finished He did not go to work again on the 8th day, and nor did Adam! There was nothing Adam could have done to improve on what God had done! Maintenance was no problem because there was no sin. Eden was a self-perpetuating and self-sustaining paradise reflecting the glory of the Creator. Adam simply represented God in his garden paradise every day of every week! God made no provision for Adam to turn over the responsibility for Eden to someone else every seventh day! It was his responsibility to care for it seven days of every week. The idea that Adam may have turned the care of Eden over to someone else every 7th day so he could "rest from his labors" simply does not fit the scriptural picture!

So what does the Bible say was the situation? After God had completed the work of creation, and declared it very good, or perfectly completed, He introduced Adam and Eve to their home. That was a garden paradise that was provided and stocked with all the provisions needed for their well-being, as well as for the animals that were placed under their care. There was no curse, and they did not have to work by the sweat of their brow to earn a living, or to provide for Gods other creatures. Eden paradise was Gods total provision for that first couple. They enjoyed Gods total Rest, or Sabbath experience day after day until the day they sinned.

Question: Did they fall out of that Rest 24 hours after it began? When did that Sabbath experience end for Mr. and Mrs. Adam? Was it not when they first sinned? It was the entrance of sin that brought an end to their Sabbath rest. God did not intend that Adam and Eve should ever lose that Rest. They broke that original Sabbath by sinning! .

That explains why the Bible does not introduce the Sabbath as bound by an evening and a morning. It was created to have a beginning, but no ending. The original Sabbath was not limited to one day of the week. It was to be an open-ended, continuous experience of resting in Gods total provision for His creation. Adam was not commanded to begin working for a living until the day he first sinned.

The Sabbath of the 4th commandment that God gave to Israel was of a totally different nature. It included the curse of sin, "six days shall you labor", and also the command to "remember" the Sabbath Rest that they had forfeited by their grumbling and complaining against Gods provision for them as they began their desert wanderings. Because Israel rejected Gods provision, the curse of sin remained upon them. Only instead of laboring seven days of the week as in slavery, now they were commanded to cease their work every 7th day the day on which the original Sabbath began and to meditate on the blessings of that Sabbath, and what they could have enjoyed, had they not rebelled.

God intended to take them to a land "flowing with milk and honey", where He would protect them from all enemies, where their clothes would not wear out, where disease would not touch them, and where He planned to restore to them the amenities that Adam had lost. But sin made it impossible for them to experience the Sabbath of creation. What they got at Sinai, was only a symbol of the original Sabbath. That is why the Jews, who stopped all labor on the 7th day of the week, were told in Hebrews 3:15-19 that they still failed to enter into Gods true Sabbath rest. The Sabbath of creation was not limited to a day. It was and remains, a life style of trusting fully in Gods total provision and relying on Him and on Him alone by faith, every day of every week.

EdmundBlackadderTheThird · Jul 30, 2005

Cliff2 said:
You say we cannot prove that the Sabbath is the day we should worship on, all we can prove is that we should not work on that day.

I do not agree with you, but for the sake of the arguement I will.

What we have shown is much more than you can say for Sunday.

You cannot show that Sunday is a day we should not work on. You cannot show Sunday as being holy.

So even if you take what we can show and what you cannot show, the 7th day Sabbath is so far ahead.

I am off work on Saturday Cliff so I am all good for what the Big Ten tell me to do. I am free to worship any day I choose and do so pretty much every day. I don't work on Saturday so we I am keeping the sabbath according to what you can show scripture to say correct?

Cliff2 · Jul 30, 2005

flesh99 said:
I am off work on Saturday Cliff so I am all good for what the Big Ten tell me to do. I am free to worship any day I choose and do so pretty much every day. I don't work on Saturday so we I am keeping the sabbath according to what you can show scripture to say correct?

Isaiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isaiah 58:13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Ezekiel 20:12
Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Ezekiel 20:13
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:20
And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day

Matthew 24:20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 6:2
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

These are just a few Sabbath texts to encourage us to keep God's 7th day Sabbath.

EdmundBlackadderTheThird · Jul 30, 2005

You can show you think we are supposed to "keep" the sabbath but the only command in the Ten is to not work. You cannot show that the sabbath is commanded for us to worship on. You have failed to do so. It is NOT commanded anywhere. Now let's look at your verses:

Cliff2 said:
Isaiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Old covenant, which the other parts of the law concerning the sabbath would apply to. If you use this as proof text of this being binding on Christians then the whole of the law is binding on Christians. You also take this verse out of context. In verse 4 we are told to look to the eunuchs that keep the sabbath. You find me some eunuchs and this verse will start applying. When you do that we can also do verse 12 from the same passage
[bible]Isaiah 56:12[/bible]
You ready to go fill yourself with strong drink alongside me?

Isaiah 58:13
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Again out of context. This is speaking directly to Israel which is evidenced by verse 14 where we see the words "and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father". We are not of the heritage of Jacob. So far we are two for two out of context.

Ezekiel 20:12
Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Even worse out of context than the other two. The preceding verse refers to whole of the law and the following verse refers directly to Israel and is in reference to them violating many tennets of the old covenant not covered in the ten. Unless you are trying to put us all under the old covenant you cannot use this verse as proof because the whole of the passage is in reference to the whole of the law and you would be picking and choosing what still applies.

Ezekiel 20:13
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

See you prove my point. The passage is to ISRAEL who was under a different covenant than we are. Sorry brother you are not going to succeed in putting us under the law. This passage refers to more than the sabbath and picking out verses that seem to prove you point without taking them in context is eisegetics and bad practice.

Ezekiel 20:20
And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

The same passage but you forget the verse before it which speaks of the whole law. You aren't even managing to post whole thoughts here. You have taken half of a sentence for this one. You are failing pretty badly to prove your point using OT references because when doing so you cannot get away from the law as a whole.

Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day

Christ kept the full law, all 613 points, and when this was spoken the law was still in effect. Of course Christ is Lord of the sabbath. He was when it was given to the Jews, he was when he walked on earth, and he is now even though it is not binding on us as Christians.

Matthew 24:20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So winter is as important as the sabbath? There is no refence to sin here and simply put he says to pray your flight is not on the sabbath and he does not say that if it is to not go. Plus the law is still in effect when these words are spoken. Still no proof of anything binding on Christians.

Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Law was still in effect. Jesus kept all 613 points, every last one of them. We ar enot under the law. Failure to prove your point yet again.

Mark 6:2
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Good grief you think you would learn that Christ kept all the laws. Of course he was keeping the sabbath he had to as he had to keep all of the law to fulfill prophecy. If you are using Christ as your example then your example it to keep all of the law perfectly. I do have a question though. Just how important is the sabbath. Is it the most important thing and if so then why would it be the third most important? Christ gave us the two most important things and the sabbath was never mentioned by him as something we have to keep. So I guess it's third most important right?

Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Again, CHRIST KEPT THE WHOLE LAW! His keeping of the sabbath was something every single jew did. You prove nothing other than Christ was a jew who kept the law.

Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

They were witnessing to jews who were still keeping the law. They were not keeping the sabbath but they were witnessing to the jews who were gathered because they were still keeping the law and unaware of the truth of Christ. When you witness you go where the people you are witnessing to are.

Acts 13:44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

The whole city was jews who were not saved. You are showing examples of people keeping the law post Christ, which is not required of us. They did not believe in Christ and were still bound by the old law.

Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Paul's manner was to debate the jews on the sabbath because that is when the jews were gathered. You don't see Peter along with him or any of the other Apostles. You see Paul going to the jews and debating them on their holy day. You don't see Paul going to worship, you see him going to debate.

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Again you see him debating on the sabbath, not worshipping. He was teaching a different doctrine than the jews were being taught. You don't see the rest of the apostles with him and you don't see him worshipping.

These are just a few Sabbath texts to encourage us to keep God's 7th day Sabbath.

The texts you have chosen uttely fail to provide an convincing argument and they do not take into account verses such as:

[bible]Colossians 2:16[/bible]
Which cleary states to let no man judge you. I do not judge you for keeping the sabbath but rather for trying to tell others they are sinning by not doing so. There is not a single New Testament scripture that shows it is sinful to not keep the sabbath.

There are more verses but I am done for right now. I will be back later if necessary.

Cliff2 · Jul 30, 2005

flesh99 said:
You can show you think we are supposed to "keep" the sabbath but the only command in the Ten is to not work. You cannot show that the sabbath is commanded for us to worship on. You have failed to do so. It is NOT commanded anywhere. Now let's look at your verses:

Old covenant, which the other parts of the law concerning the sabbath would apply to. If you use this as proof text of this being binding on Christians then the whole of the law is binding on Christians. You also take this verse out of context. In verse 4 we are told to look to the eunuchs that keep the sabbath. You find me some eunuchs and this verse will start applying. When you do that we can also do verse 12 from the same passage
Isaiah 56:12Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
You ready to go fill yourself with strong drink alongside me?

Again out of context. This is speaking directly to Israel which is evidenced by verse 14 where we see the words "and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father". We are not of the heritage of Jacob. So far we are two for two out of context.

Even worse out of context than the other two. The preceding verse refers to whole of the law and the following verse refers directly to Israel and is in reference to them violating many tennets of the old covenant not covered in the ten. Unless you are trying to put us all under the old covenant you cannot use this verse as proof because the whole of the passage is in reference to the whole of the law and you would be picking and choosing what still applies.

See you prove my point. The passage is to ISRAEL who was under a different covenant than we are. Sorry brother you are not going to succeed in putting us under the law. This passage refers to more than the sabbath and picking out verses that seem to prove you point without taking them in context is eisegetics and bad practice.

The same passage but you forget the verse before it which speaks of the whole law. You aren't even managing to post whole thoughts here. You have taken half of a sentence for this one. You are failing pretty badly to prove your point using OT references because when doing so you cannot get away from the law as a whole.

Christ kept the full law, all 613 points, and when this was spoken the law was still in effect. Of course Christ is Lord of the sabbath. He was when it was given to the Jews, he was when he walked on earth, and he is now even though it is not binding on us as Christians.

So winter is as important as the sabbath? There is no refence to sin here and simply put he says to pray your flight is not on the sabbath and he does not say that if it is to not go. Plus the law is still in effect when these words are spoken. Still no proof of anything binding on Christians.

Law was still in effect. Jesus kept all 613 points, every last one of them. We ar enot under the law. Failure to prove your point yet again.

Good grief you think you would learn that Christ kept all the laws. Of course he was keeping the sabbath he had to as he had to keep all of the law to fulfill prophecy. If you are using Christ as your example then your example it to keep all of the law perfectly. I do have a question though. Just how important is the sabbath. Is it the most important thing and if so then why would it be the third most important? Christ gave us the two most important things and the sabbath was never mentioned by him as something we have to keep. So I guess it's third most important right?

Again, CHRIST KEPT THE WHOLE LAW! His keeping of the sabbath was something every single jew did. You prove nothing other than Christ was a jew who kept the law.

They were witnessing to jews who were still keeping the law. They were not keeping the sabbath but they were witnessing to the jews who were gathered because they were still keeping the law and unaware of the truth of Christ. When you witness you go where the people you are witnessing to are.

The whole city was jews who were not saved. You are showing examples of people keeping the law post Christ, which is not required of us. They did not believe in Christ and were still bound by the old law.

Paul's manner was to debate the jews on the sabbath because that is when the jews were gathered. You don't see Peter along with him or any of the other Apostles. You see Paul going to the jews and debating them on their holy day. You don't see Paul going to worship, you see him going to debate.

Again you see him debating on the sabbath, not worshipping. He was teaching a different doctrine than the jews were being taught. You don't see the rest of the apostles with him and you don't see him worshipping.

The texts you have chosen uttely fail to provide an convincing argument and they do not take into account verses such as:

Colossians 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which cleary states to let no man judge you. I do not judge you for keeping the sabbath but rather for trying to tell others they are sinning by not doing so. There is not a single New Testament scripture that shows it is sinful to not keep the sabbath.

There are more verses but I am done for right now. I will be back later if necessary.

Sory, but you fail to come up with any texts that says that Sunday is a day of worship or a day we should not work on.

PaleHorse · Jul 30, 2005

flesh99 said:
You can show you think we are supposed to "keep" the sabbath but the only command in the Ten is to not work. You cannot show that the sabbath is commanded for us to worship on. You have failed to do so. It is NOT commanded anywhere.

If I may inject a passage or two:
First, let's look at the creation of the sabbath:
Genesis 2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What does sanctified mean? According to Webster's dictionary it means "to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use".

Leviticus 23:3 - Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Now, what is a convocation? According to Webster's dictionary it means a meeting, to convene, and to cause to assemble; when we add the word holy onto it we have a holy meeting of people. And we learned from the Gen 2:3 verse that the sabbath was sanctified. So now we have a particular day that is set apart for sacred purpose or relgious use and it is a holy meeting of people. Can you explain how this isn't worship again and that it only means to not work? You are going to have to do better than your current explanation.

Also let's look at the commandment itself:

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Notice, in verse 10, that the sabbath is not the "sabbath of the Jews" - no, it is "the sabbath of the LORD thy God". It's God's sabbath, folks! Verse 11 clearly states that God Himself blassed and hallowed (to make holy) this day. Also, in verse 8 it says to "keep it holy". Are you doing that? Just because you don't work that day are you keeping it holy? Do you spend it watching the sports channel? Is that keeping it holy? You don't keep it holy because you are under the assumption that it isn't for Christians to observe (even though it is God's holy sabbath - not the Jews); as such you might want to read this carefully:

Matthew 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
The context for this verse is that Jesus was speaking in regards to the future event of the destruction of Jerusalem. Any theologian can tell you that the Romans destroyed it about 40 years after Christ made this statement. Now, if Christ's death did away with the sabbath day then why would He be concerned that people would violate it 40 years after His death? I mean, it there is no sabbath after His death then why would He state this? Do you think He didn't know when Jerusalem would be ransacked? Of course not, we're talking about Christ after all.

But, probably the single best passage in the NT to show that the sabbath is still very much in place is the following:

Hebrews 4:1-11:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Verse 4 makes it clear what the subject of this verse is about - they seventh day. Now, as we read through it we find that sabbath was limited to a certain day (verse 7), if any other day had been mentioned for sabbath (His rest) then He would have told us (verse 8), and that there remains a sabbath for the people of God (verse 9). Verse 9 is very important so let's look at some other translations to make sure we are understanding it fully:

There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (WEB)
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. (ASV)
So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God. (BBE)
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God. (DBY)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (WBS)
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. (WEY)
there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God, (YLT)
ara apoleipetai sabbatismos tô laô tou theou. (GRT)

apoleipetai means literally 'left behind' and sabbatismos in greek literature is always 100% of the time refers to seventh day sabbath-keeping.

So, you see that the sabbath was in fact left for the people of God. This is a NT verse so it certainly applies to Christians for as the verse explicitly states it remains. I've heard many argue that this verse isn't talking about the sabbath day - that it is referring to resting in Christ - but they completely overlook the fact that no less than 6 times the noun day is used. The only way for someone to legitimately refute that this verse is not talking about the literal sabbath day is to show in clear scripture where Christ is equated, either symbolically or metaphorically, with a "day". Can you do this? Can you show the verse that equates Jesus as being a "day"? If not, then you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on.

Airdude · Jul 30, 2005

Verse 4 makes it clear what the subject of this verse is about - they seventh day. Now, as we read through it we find that sabbath was limited to a certain day (verse 7), if any other day had been mentioned for sabbath (His rest) then He would have told us (verse 8), and that there remains a sabbath for the people of God (verse 9). Verse 9 is very important so let's look at some other translations to make sure we are understanding it fully:

There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (WEB)
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. (ASV)
So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God. (BBE)
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God. (DBY)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (WBS)
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. (WEY)
there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God, (YLT)
ara apoleipetai sabbatismos tô laô tou theou. (GRT)

apoleipetai means literally 'left behind' and sabbatismos in greek literature is always 100% of the time refers to seventh day sabbath-keeping.

Very well said! Thank you.

fungku · Jul 30, 2005

Cliff2 said:
Sory, but you fail to come up with any texts that says that Sunday is a day of worship or a day we should not work on.

That's because there are none.

You should worship every day!

I'm disappointed in your response though, because he doesn't offer proof of an alternative sabbath day, are you throwing everything he has replied with out the window and just going to ignore it?

SearchingSDA · Jul 30, 2005

PaleHorse said:
The only way for someone to legitimately refute that this verse is not talking about the literal sabbath day is to show in clear scripture where Christ is equated, either symbolically or metaphorically, with a "day". Can you do this? Can you show the verse that equates Jesus as being a "day"? If not, then you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on.

Why do we limit Sabbath Rest to a single day? The Greek seems to make it clear that we can have that rest everyday.

"7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, Today, after such a long time, as it has been said:

Today, if you will hear His voice,

Do not harden your hearts. "

Both times Today is used the greek word is Semeron. The definition I find is:

1. this very day
2. what has happened today

EdmundBlackadderTheThird · Jul 31, 2005

Cliff2 said:
Sory, but you fail to come up with any texts that says that Sunday is a day of worship or a day we should not work on.

I am not out to prove there is a designated day of worship, merely to show that you cannot prove that there is. I do not claim we are under any commandment to worship on a give day. Saying otherwise would be a strawman. I worship on the day my Lord was raised from the dead in celebration of that event. I also worship every day in my own time. I gather together with fellow believers twice a week at minimum and sometimes more often than that. What day it is does not matter. All that you have been able to prove, if anything, is that we should not work on the sabbath. You fail completely to show that we should worship and furthermore also avoid answering the questions asked of you over and over.

1. If the sabbath is so important why is it not listed in what Christ said were the most important commandments?
2. Why are you willing to use the sinful labor of others on the sabbath?

EdmundBlackadderTheThird · Jul 31, 2005

PaleHorse said:
If I may inject a passage or two:
First, let's look at the creation of the sabbath:
Genesis 2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

What does sanctified mean? According to Webster's dictionary it means "to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use".

Leviticus 23:3 - Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Now, what is a convocation? According to Webster's dictionary it means a meeting, to convene, and to cause to assemble; when we add the word holy onto it we have a holy meeting of people. And we learned from the Gen 2:3 verse that the sabbath was sanctified. So now we have a particular day that is set apart for sacred purpose or relgious use and it is a holy meeting of people. Can you explain how this isn't worship again and that it only means to not work? You are going to have to do better than your current explanation.

Also let's look at the commandment itself:

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Notice, in verse 10, that the sabbath is not the "sabbath of the Jews" - no, it is "the sabbath of the LORD thy God". It's God's sabbath, folks! Verse 11 clearly states that God Himself blassed and hallowed (to make holy) this day. Also, in verse 8 it says to "keep it holy". Are you doing that? Just because you don't work that day are you keeping it holy? Do you spend it watching the sports channel? Is that keeping it holy? You don't keep it holy because you are under the assumption that it isn't for Christians to observe (even though it is God's holy sabbath - not the Jews); as such you might want to read this carefully:

Matthew 24:20 - But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
The context for this verse is that Jesus was speaking in regards to the future event of the destruction of Jerusalem. Any theologian can tell you that the Romans destroyed it about 40 years after Christ made this statement. Now, if Christ's death did away with the sabbath day then why would He be concerned that people would violate it 40 years after His death? I mean, it there is no sabbath after His death then why would He state this? Do you think He didn't know when Jerusalem would be ransacked? Of course not, we're talking about Christ after all.

But, probably the single best passage in the NT to show that the sabbath is still very much in place is the following:

Hebrews 4:1-11:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Verse 4 makes it clear what the subject of this verse is about - they seventh day. Now, as we read through it we find that sabbath was limited to a certain day (verse 7), if any other day had been mentioned for sabbath (His rest) then He would have told us (verse 8), and that there remains a sabbath for the people of God (verse 9). Verse 9 is very important so let's look at some other translations to make sure we are understanding it fully:

There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (WEB)
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. (ASV)
So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God. (BBE)
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God. (DBY)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (WBS)
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. (WEY)
there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God, (YLT)
ara apoleipetai sabbatismos tô laô tou theou. (GRT)

apoleipetai means literally 'left behind' and sabbatismos in greek literature is always 100% of the time refers to seventh day sabbath-keeping.

So, you see that the sabbath was in fact left for the people of God. This is a NT verse so it certainly applies to Christians for as the verse explicitly states it remains. I've heard many argue that this verse isn't talking about the sabbath day - that it is referring to resting in Christ - but they completely overlook the fact that no less than 6 times the noun day is used. The only way for someone to legitimately refute that this verse is not talking about the literal sabbath day is to show in clear scripture where Christ is equated, either symbolically or metaphorically, with a "day". Can you do this? Can you show the verse that equates Jesus as being a "day"? If not, then you don't have a scriptural leg to stand on.

So you admit that sabbatismos always refers to the sabbath day? Good then Colossians 2:16 is all that is needed to refute the whole of your argument. But lets go even further and really look at the scripture you posted in full rather than trying to pull out single verses.
[bible]Hebrews 4:1-11[/bible]

In context it is easy to see that Paul is refering to rest God took in Genesis. God is still in that rest and is not working. This is why in Genesis it does not state that day 7 is a literal day and it takes the time to state that all other days of creation are literal. God did not start working again on the 8th day. We are complete and finished works in Christ and have the same rest God has since he created the world. This passage is refering to salvation and not a keeping of the sabbath as was given in the law. Paul is writing to Jews and using language they will understand just as he did when he wrote to the churches in Corinth and Galatia and the other churches to which he penned missives. We have an eternal rest as believers, one the Jews did not have until Christ, in that our salvation is complete and we cannot do anything to further that. Our works are as dirty rags to the Lord. We are made perfect and blameless in his sight.

Are you going to tell us that God still takes saturday off? We are offered HIS rest which He (The Father) is still in. To use this as proof text you are going to have to claim that God The Father still takes saturday off and is not in an eternal rest. The rest was from the work of creation and that is clear form scripture. If God is still taking the seventh day off every week then your prayers on Saturday are useless because he is off work. It's a ridiculous claim to say that God's rest in Genesis is repeated by Him every seventh day. And your entire claim would rest on that by the basis of simple logic.

Your strawman there at the end is just that. You fail to show with clear scripture in context that this verse is about sabbath keeping. It contradicts Col 2:16 to start with so we would have to pick which scripture was more true and we don't get to do that. Showing that your interpetation of the scripture contradicts other very clear scripture is all that is needed to show that your interpretation is in fact wrong. Furthermore even if you had managed to show that we are to keep the sabbath you fail to show it is a day of worship at all. The sabbath in clear scripture, in the ten commandments, only says not to work. So if we are to take your view and look at it then we see that you fail to keep the sabbath because you are willing to cause to others to in fact work on the sabbath and you do so without even a twinge of conscience. We cannot look at your view of scripture and take it seriously when you are willing to profit from the sin of others. You lose the entire debate before it even begins because of that.

Gods Sabbath Day (2)

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Proud member of the Loud Few

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Proud member of the Loud Few

Well-Known Member

Proud member of the Loud Few

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Regular Member

watch these chains fall from my hands

Active Member

Proud member of the Loud Few

Proud member of the Loud Few

Similar threads